Bible Study Divorce/ Old and New Testaments

[Deborah13]

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
1Co 7:16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Being a Christian I had a big problem with these verses when I was considering leaving and divorcing my last husband. There was a brief time when I was not walking very strongly in the Lord and gave myself over to a few worldly pleasures. It was at this time I met and married my second husband. I knew he drank before we got married and I did not have a problem with that at the time. He seemed to be a good loving man and sat me on a pedestal. I liked that because I never had someone love me this way. To make a long story short I married a demon from the pits of hell so to say. I didn't know he was an alcoholic and a drug user before I married him as he hid that from me. I knew he drank some, but never saw the signs of him being an alcoholic until after we got married. Later in the marriage I found out that he was cheating on me and also doing drugs, which led him to be very abusive to me physically and mentally.

I had gotten myself back into a good Church again and he even went with me a couple of times, but noting ever changed in the two years we were together. The abuse was getting more intense to where he tried to kill me when he was under the influence of the drugs and alcohol. I became a prisoner in my own home as I was not allowed to have friends and he took me back and forth to work so he could control my every move. I thought by him going to church with me once in awhile would help change him, but no chance of that. Without the influences he was a good and loving man and I played on that part of him that I thought I could bring him back to the Lord. These verses above were grounded in me. I didn't want another failed marriage, but I knew if I stayed he would have killed me and I wasn't ready to die yet, especially in this way. I had no money and no car. I was trapped and I cried out to the Lord to help me because I did not want to give up on my husband and I tried to talk to him about getting help and he refused. I knew I had to get out, but felt like I was sinning against God if I divorced him especially after reading these scriptures. God knew I needed out and even provided me a way where there seemed to be no way.

Does God permit divorce; no he does not for what God has joined together as one flesh let no man separate it, Matthew 19:3-6. Here's the thing. We were not one flesh as both of us being one in the Lord and I think this is why God provided me a way to escape. God has given me a Godly man now and we have been married sixteen years. What I learned through all of this was to wait on God to put that right man in my life. You will know when it's right as two become one in the Lord before they enter the vows of marriage. I wish I had known that 40 years ago.

I'm truly sorry you went through the things you have been through. Our ignorance of many things can get us into horrible situations and sometimes we pay dearly for those mistakes. But God is good and He brings us out the other side stronger and wiser. He brought you out of Egypt.
Praise the Lord for Him blessing you with a loving Christian man.

 

[for_his_glory]

Deborah13 I hated that I put myself in that place, but it has made me who I am today in the Lord and for that part of all of it I thank God as now I know I can face any trial or tribulation that comes my way as even in death I have the final victory.

1Co_15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13 I don't quite understand your apparent distinction between fornication and adultery. As I understand it, fornication is sex between two people, neither of whom are married, while in adultery, at least one of the people involved has to be married, but not to the other person. Am I misunderstanding you or are you using some other definition of these words?

The TOG​

If fornication is sex between two people who are not married how could Jesus have used it for 'just cause' for divorce?

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

see post # 31

imo and that of others who have studied Hebrew marriage laws and customs....

A betrothal under Hebrew law could not be broken without a writ of divorcement given to the woman by the man. A betrothal was the same thing as being legally married but there was a waiting period while the man prepared a place for her. All very romantic actually.
This is one of the reasons that it was so trusting of Mary, the mother of our Lord, to agree with the angel's proposal from God. She and Joseph were betrothed. He would have had to go to the Sadducees and declared her as a fornicator in order to get a writ of divorcement. Her very life was on the line. No little thing for this very young woman to face.

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13 I hated that I put myself in that place, but it has made me who I am today in the Lord and for that part of all of it I thank God as now I know I can face any trial or tribulation that comes my way as even in death I have the final victory.

1Co_15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[TOG]

If fornication is sex between two people who are not married how could Jesus have used it for 'just cause' for divorce?

Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Bad translation. The Greek word translated as "fornication" in the KJV is "pornea". It's where we get the English word "pornography". According to the Blue Letter Bible, it can mean...

I illicit sexual intercourse

A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12​

II metaph. the worship of idols

A. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
​

After looking it up in a number of dictionaries, I see that my definition of "fornication" wasn't quite as precise as it could have been, though it was close. Fornication is either sex between two unmarried people or between an unmarried person and a married person. It always involves someone who isn't married. But, as you can see, "pornea" can mean various things besides fornication. A better translation would be "sexual immorality", as it is translated in the ESV. I don't want to seem to be justifying divorce, but the way I understand it, any sexually immoral behavior could be grounds for a divorce, not just sex with somebody else' spouse.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

On paper, yes.

Abuse, unbelief, etc. are simply not authorized reasons to divorce. That doesn't mean you don't separate yourself from the abuser to protect yourself. Abandonment by the other person is likely to be the outcome when you protect yourself from an abuser.

and they don't change, they have raped your child. what then? I ask that because my wife second husband did just that. he raped a friend her daughters. If I wasn't married to her and had this conversation , I wouldn't suggest any reconciling. even if he changed that is a line that I wouldnt tolerate. the thought of her being a pedophile and im remaining in love with that isn't in me.

 

[Chopper]

Bad translation. The Greek word translated as "fornication" in the KJV is "pornea". It's where we get the English word "pornography". According to the Blue Letter Bible, it can mean...

I illicit sexual intercourse

A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12​

II metaph. the worship of idols

A. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
​

After looking it up in a number of dictionaries, I see that my definition of "fornication" wasn't quite as precise as it could have been, though it was close. Fornication is either sex between two unmarried people or between an unmarried person and a married person. It always involves someone who isn't married. But, as you can see, "pornea" can mean various things besides fornication. A better translation would be "sexual immorality", as it is translated in the ESV. I don't want to seem to be justifying divorce, but the way I understand it, any sexually immoral behavior could be grounds for a divorce, not just sex with somebody else' spouse.

The TOG​

 

[cyberjosh]

Bad translation. The Greek word translated as "fornication" in the KJV is "pornea". It's where we get the English word "pornography". According to the Blue Letter Bible, it can mean...

I illicit sexual intercourse

A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12​

II metaph. the worship of idols

A. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
​

After looking it up in a number of dictionaries, I see that my definition of "fornication" wasn't quite as precise as it could have been, though it was close. Fornication is either sex between two unmarried people or between an unmarried person and a married person. It always involves someone who isn't married. But, as you can see, "pornea" can mean various things besides fornication. A better translation would be "sexual immorality", as it is translated in the ESV. I don't want to seem to be justifying divorce, but the way I understand it, any sexually immoral behavior could be grounds for a divorce, not just sex with somebody else' spouse.

The TOG​

I'm lacking a little context for what you and Deborah are discussing, but although I agree pornea means more broadly "sexual immorality" I highly doubt that "it always involves someone who isn't married" for that very reason. Sexual immorality must include sexual infidelity for married persons as well. In my mind adultery can rightly be called pornea. When it is mentioned in Colossians 3:5 and vs. 6 summarizes "Because of these, the wrath of God is coming" I don't think Paul intended to exclude or put adultery in a different category than the pornea mentioned in vs. 5. Just my .

 

[TOG]

I'm lacking a little context for what you and Deborah are discussing, but although I agree pornea means more broadly "sexual immorality" I highly doubt that "it always involves someone who isn't married" for that very reason. Sexual immorality must include sexual infidelity for married persons as well. In my mind adultery can rightly be called pornea. When it is mentioned in Colossians 3:5 and vs. 6 summarizes "Because of these, the wrath of God is coming" I don't think Paul intended to exclude or put adultery in a different category than the pornea mentioned in vs. 5. Just my .

You're misunderstanding me. Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough, especially given that you don't have the entire context. We were talking about three terms - one in Greek and two in English - and the relationship / differences between them. The definitions, as I understand them, are:

• Pornea - Sexual immorality of various kinds (see post #65 for more details)
• Adultery - Sex between two people, both of whom are married, but not to each other
• Fornication - Sex between two people, at least one of whom is not married

It is fornication that always involves someone who isn't married. That's why I don't think it's a good translation for "pornea" in Matthew 5:32.

The TOG​

 

[Deborah13]

Pornea = G4202

1. illicit sexual intercourse
   
   1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
      
      
   2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
      
      
   3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
      
2. metaph. the worship of idols
   
   1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
      

 

[Deborah13]

jasonc -- post #70
Please notice in the definition above it is all illegal sexual activity that is forbidden in the law.

 

[Chopper]

jasonc -- post #70
Please notice in the definition above it is all illegal sexual activity that is forbidden in the law.

Good Deb. I was hoping you'd get to the real definition of fornication, it is any sexual activity that is against God's standards.

 

[Deborah13]

Good Deb. I was hoping you'd get to the real definition of fornication, it is any sexual activity that is against God's standards.

This is off topic but I think there are at least two verses that when it uses the word 'fornication' may actually be speaking about the second definition of that word in Strong's. Namely idolatry and there are a few more I think in Revelation, as well. I'm not sure but it seems to better fit the context of the verses.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

[Chopper]

This is off topic but I think there are at least two verses that when it uses the word 'fornication' may actually be speaking about the second definition of that word in Strong's. Namely idolatry and there are a few more I think in Revelation, as well. I'm not sure but it seems to better fit the context of the verses.

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

You're right, it's off topic. I believe it is two different items. food laws, and sexual laws. I don't put the two together.

 

[Deborah13]

Bad translation. The Greek word translated as "fornication" in the KJV is "pornea". It's where we get the English word "pornography". According to the Blue Letter Bible, it can mean...

I illicit sexual intercourse

A. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
B. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
C. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12​

II metaph. the worship of idols

A. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
​

After looking it up in a number of dictionaries, I see that my definition of "fornication" wasn't quite as precise as it could have been, though it was close. Fornication is either sex between two unmarried people or between an unmarried person and a married person. It always involves someone who isn't married. But, as you can see, "pornea" can mean various things besides fornication. A better translation would be "sexual immorality", as it is translated in the ESV. I don't want to seem to be justifying divorce, but the way I understand it, any sexually immoral behavior could be grounds for a divorce, not just sex with somebody else' spouse.

The TOG​

I was thinking that as time goes by the definitions of words don't always stay the same. So like this word back when the KJV was written may have been the correct word to use because their definition match the Bible definition.

 

[jasonc]

I wasn't saying that pornea wasn't a good word translated into fornication. I know that the greeks called any sex outside of marriage that word.its also the same word by paul in romans that is oft quoted against gay marriages. but I digress.

 

[TOG]

I was thinking that as time goes by the definitions of words don't always stay the same. So like this word back when the KJV was written may have been the correct word to use because their definition match the Bible definition.

Good point. Words do change their meanings over time. For example, the word "nice" used to mean "idiot". It's not unlikely that the meaning of the word "fornication" has changed over the past 400 years.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

someone needs to tell that the kjvo's.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm lacking a little context for what you and Deborah are discussing, but although I agree pornea means more broadly "sexual immorality" I highly doubt that "it always involves someone who isn't married" for that very reason. Sexual immorality must include sexual infidelity for married persons as well. In my mind adultery can rightly be called pornea. When it is mentioned in Colossians 3:5 and vs. 6 summarizes "Because of these, the wrath of God is coming" I don't think Paul intended to exclude or put adultery in a different category than the pornea mentioned in vs. 5. Just my .

Josh, see pot #70, I think this is an accurate definition.

 

[Deborah13]

ESV
Matt. 5:32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So to me this verse is saying that if a husband divorces his wife for any reason other than sexual immorality that divorce is not legal. That is why when she remarries she is commiting adultery and so is her new husband. However, Jesus says the husband caused this not her.

This is where I believe Paul comes in. Paul tells believers to stay single or return to their spouse.
But what if this husband marries someone else? A new marriage for him is not legal. The wife is left in the position of being still legally married. So what option does she have? Get another divorce on the grounds of fornication?
Remember we are talking about God's legal divorce not a civil divorce in front of a secular judge.

Well if we were of the Jewish faith AND obeying what Jesus said, the husband would not be granted the divorce to start with because he had no legal grounds.
In that case he would have to stay or abandon her. Without proof of fornication even if he abandons her she would have no grounds for divorce without...
1 Corinthians 7 ESV
15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.
KJV
1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Continued......