th1b.taylor
Member
You're flirting with legalism, my man.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study do christians have beard? " nor mar the edges of the beard "
- Thread starter thesaintman
- Start date
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Well, the elect of the Old Testament never kept he law, so who or what convinces anyone that the law in any manner is kept by believers in Christ?
Law keepers evidently are boasting in the flesh to keeping a ministration of death written on their hearts. Is this really what they want to brag on? Used practically, it continues to kill and not give life to any observing it. It was supposed to bring one to Christ such as the one coming to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life (Mark 10:17) . If you notice there was something lacking, and there always is of the flesh.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His.
Did any other that Jesus ever keep the law? Are you saying you do?
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
Well, the elect of the Old Testament never kept he law, so who or what convinces anyone that the law in any manner is kept by believers in Christ?
Law keepers evidently are boasting in the flesh to keeping a ministration of death written on their hearts. Is this really what they want to brag on? Used practically, it continues to kill and not give life to any observing it. It was supposed to bring one to Christ such as the one coming to Jesus asking what he must do to inherit eternal life (Mark 10:17) . If you notice there was something lacking, and there always is of the flesh.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into His rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His.
Did any other that Jesus ever keep the law? Are you saying you do?
2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
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Kenny_ms
Guest
Me too Chopper....the older I get the shorter I want my beard to be, BUT....I only cut it once a month because I'm retired and never get out to see anyone.
That's me. I hate a beard and I hate to shave and as long as I'm not going out and that doesn't happen all that often, I go couple weeks/month between shaves. So I guess technically I usually have some type of beard, but I'm absolutely guilty of destroying it.
Thanks for the info on Armstrong...wondered where the rumor originated.
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Kenny_ms
Guest
How about I just circumcise my facial hair every eighth day?
You know, I never though of my hair having pain, but when you put it that way.
th1b.taylor
Member
How about I just circumcise my facial hair every eighth day?
th1b.taylor
Member
You know, I never though of my hair having pain, but when you put it that way.
No, no, the whole idea of doing it before the eighth day just reeks with do it before it will hurt. It stung this last time when I trimmed it, can you imagine the suffering if I had circumcised it? {MUST REMEMBER TO TELL WIFE THIS LIE.}edit; [I wonder, will God let such a harmless lie slip past?]
Stan1953
Member
How about I just circumcise my facial hair every eighth day?
Ewwwww!
Stan1953
Member
This is problematic, as God said He will write HIS laws, not the written ones. Also His laws are not the same for all as Paul teaches in Rom 7:4-6 (NIV) and the entire chapter of Rom 14 (NIV) and particularly v22-23
The problem with taking Lev 19:27 (NIV) seriously or being technical about it, is that what are you doing to do about Deut 22:8 (NIV)?
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Kenny_ms
Guest
Did he actually say he would write all of them or for that matter, the same laws in every heart? I would assume so but maybe we need to prove that?
For all I know, all he has written in my heart is in my heart and you are the one that chooses to add others so you see, by that and what we have already argued, we are just going to keep going in circles here. You have not proved your point to me and I have not proved mine to you still
Don't you see what you are doing there? that is YOU choosing what he has put in my mind, not God.
How can the very thing that tells us we are sinning be abolished?
Because the commandments tell us we are sinning? That is if you still don't understand we are sinful.
That is why we must have our minds renewed.
Again, mine is but since my hearts rules don't agree with yours, you are really saying *I* need to have my mind renewed, yours already has been....right?
That could be taken a few ways, one of which is, We establish the law through faith and no longer need the actual law to show us we sin. But lets not argue that now and move to the following
We might be getting somewhere now. Pretty convincing, at least for when it was written.
But then there is:
Matthew 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The big question there would be, has all been fulfilled? or what exactly does that mean?...Did Jesus death and resurrection fulfill it all? And if it doesn't mean that, you tell me what it means?
Jocar, concerning my last comment to you, the one quoted here or post 57, the post you just may not have had a chance to comment on as yet. It ended with a quote of Mathew 5:8 and then a request for you to explain to me what the till all be fulfilled part of that verse means.
First let me say, I've been somewhat convinced the law was abolished but not completely and I suppose that is why I engaged with you here as I did, hoping to learn something, anything on this issue as this is one thing that has been nagging at me for a long time, an awful long time, as no one really gave me anything solid to go on either way, that or I just missed it or the explanations never meshed for me.
Anyway, I got curios and checked out some commentaries on the part of the verse I had asked your input on and fortunately, that very verse that happen to come to mind when you mentioned a couple of verses during our conversation, may be just what I was looking for, as it seems from the commentaries as well as my first impression on the part of that verse that I never recalled seeing before, the till all be fulfilled part. Seems it means just what I thought it did and that verse along with the commentaries may have finally wrapped this whole thing up for me. Or at the very least, closer than any verse ever has before. It may be that solid evidence I was looking for.
till all be fulfilled may well mean Jesus's death and resurrection. The price has been paid..... and you mentioned we need the law to show us what sin is, in reality the law is no longer necessary to show us that, use your common sense and think about it and forget the law for just one moment here, do you really need that to show you what sin is? Just watch and listen to some of your trusted good people here but don't use your obeying of the law as a criteria for being good, again, just for a moment and you will see, most of the sincere people here who don't do the law, know exactly what sin is. you can easily tell by reading their posts.
The ultimate price was paid for that sin and it drove home the point we were sinful, as the law showed us, sin needed paying for when we broke the law, as the laws system showed us and now, not only has it all been payed for but in such a way, how can we possibly not know what sin is? It was paid for with a very high price to the Father/Christ, not us so, all that in mind, it seems to me, to continue with the law now, it rejects all that was done for us, rejects a really good deal God gave us if we just accept it, and all considered, a deal at very little cost to us.
In my view, all has been fulfilled and I'm sure that's common knowledge for most and was to me to a point but, I'm just now having it proved, at least till someone comes along and confuses me, lol, but na, I'll hold tight to this proof, look into it a bit more, and see how it goes.
That said, and this is certainly not a demand, but I would now, more than ever, welcome your comment on Matthew 5:18, and mainly the last part. Please prove what I learned from it is wrong, prove the "fulfillment" is not what Jesus did on the cross and help me reach my goal of knowing the truth, if you would.
The commentaries were here, if interested, Jocar. I wasn't sure I could copy them here so I'll hope I can include a link.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/5-18.htm
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jocor
Guest
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (The law will not be destroyed or abolished, but “fulfilled” (pleroo meaning “to make replete, fill”) in some way. Yeshua fulfilled many things in the law and the prophets, but not yet everything. For example, prophecies related to his second coming and rule on earth and laws such as the blowing of the anti-typical Jubilee trumpet on the Day of Atonement).Did he actually say he would write all of them or for that matter, the same laws in every heart? I would assume so but maybe we need to prove that?
For all I know, all he has written in my heart is in my heart and you are the one that chooses to add others so you see, by that and what we have already argued, we are just going to keep going in circles here. You have not proved your point to me and I have not proved mine to you still
Don't you see what you are doing there? that is YOU choosing what he has put in my mind, not God.
How can the very thing that tells us we are sinning be abolished?
Because the commandments tell us we are sinning? That is if you still don't understand we are sinful.
That is why we must have our minds renewed.
Again, mine is but since my hearts rules don't agree with yours, you are really saying *I* need to have my mind renewed, yours already has been....right?
That could be taken a few ways, one of which is, We establish the law through faith and no longer need the actual law to show us we sin. But lets not argue that now and move to the following
We might be getting somewhere now. Pretty convincing, at least for when it was written.
But then there is:
Matthew 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The big question there would be, has all been fulfilled? or what exactly does that mean?...Did Jesus death and resurrection fulfill it all? And if it doesn't mean that, you tell me what it means?
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (The word “fulfilled” here is not the same word as in verse 17. The word is “ginomai” meaning “to cause to be” or “become”. There are many things yet to come such as the new heavens and new earth, the millennial Kingdom as pictured by Sukkot, the Day of YHWH and His wrath upon the wicked, the resurrection of the dead, etc. The law and prophets cannot pass away until everything prophesied or foreshadowed has come to be. Yeshua’s death and resurrection fulfilled some laws like Passover and some prophecies like Psalm 16:10, but his death and resurrection did NOT fulfill everything.)
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. The “least commandments” would include all commandments outside of the Ten Commandments and the two greatest commandments. Most Christians, in my opinion, would not be concerned with any OT commandments except the greatest commandments, but Yeshua’s heart was concerned with breaking even the least of the OT commandments.
Mine is renewed in certain areas, but it is far from being perfect like the mind of Messiah.
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jocor
Guest
I don’t consider keeping my Father’s commandments out of love for Him to be legalism.
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jocor
Guest
Yeshua kept them all perfectly. He is our example. Anyone desirous of being conformed to his image will need to obey Yahweh’s commandments as well.
“Boasting”, “brag”? Is that what I am doing? I thought I was teaching in love. The law was not meant to give life, but to point out sin. Yeshua can then give life to the repentant sinner.
Romans 10:4 is to be understood thusly; “For Messiah is the end of [keeping] the law [to attain] righteousness to every one that believeth.”
If you are asking if any other than Yeshua kept the law perfectly, no, but many, including myself, keep the law as best we can. If we sin by breaking one of them, we confess, repent and receive forgiveness.
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jocor
Guest
Obey it. If you build a house with a flat roof where people will be dwelling, then build a wall to protect them from falling. This does not need to be done on pitched roofs where no one lives.
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jocor
Guest
The price was the life of a sinless man. Since it was successfully paid, we can be cleansed by his innocent blood. Before we can confess our sin and be cleansed, we need to know we have sinned. Since sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), we need to know the law. When we sin, we know we have broken the law. The “sincere people” you mentioned know what sin is because they read the law in either the OT or NT or because they were raised to believe certain things were wrong or because it is written on their hearts. I accept all that the Father and Son have done for me. That being the case, how can I possibly continue to sin by breaking the very laws I was cleansed from breaking? Yeshua died for all my sins, including my eating pig, breaking the Sabbath, thefts, etc. I cannot negate that ultimate price by returning to eating pig, breaking the Sabbath, stealing, etc.
See post #71
Stan1953
Member
where exactly do you see a qualifier here?
It states;
When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.
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Kenny_ms
Guest
No, it did not fulfill everything that will ever happen forever, there will always be some other thing going on and you have not proven to me that fulfillment was not done on the cross still...I was hoping you could do that instead of what you claim, and remember, you are only claiming those other things need to come to pass while others in the commentaries, myself and folks here may disagree with your findings. And it's true, theirs are merely claims too and none of that is to say for certain you are wrong but I have yet to see you prove you are right and those things must come to pass first. Most of what I'm getting at here leans on the fulfillment being fulfilled already or in the future as you say..
I'd be afraid to even put a stretch like that on the table, Jocor. When you say, the least of the commandments are the law, that is completely made up. The least of the commandments are the least of the commandments and the law is the law...want me to explain that again, or is that clear enough? And I hate to sound mean there but look what you did, I felt something was in order there to help you see. You have no reason/justification for merging one into the other, not that I know of. But this is good, in ways I won't mention now. Nothing more to comment on there, but I would like to know if you made that up from scratch or if it's someone else's idea you just agree with?
Also I'm a little taken back you still don't know what sin is without the law or is it that once you stop and think about it, something so obvious that it breaks apart what you are putting out there so you just don't want to see it?.
I should ask, if any of this conversation, at anytime offends you, let me know. I can't stop saying what I'm saying but I can stop the conversation all together before it's perceived as an attack or something. I ask because it's just a normal conversation to me at this point and it's hard or even impossible to tell when it becomes otherwise to you or others. Anyway, you seem fine but do speak up if you're not.
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Kenny_ms
Guest
Actually, Jocor, I now see this is not a debate forum and I know what we are doing is definitely Bible study too, but no matter, instead of taking the risk, and in spite of it doing a lot of good, I think anyway, the debate certainly did me some good, but I'll need to bow out now.
If you want to move it somewhere that it may not be a problem, where others can join in, great and please drop a link here to wherever it may be.
I sincerely thank you for your help in this, for your input and getting me thinking about it. We just can't relax completely until some of the more important things anyway, are settled in out hearts...then we just move on to another...sigh
Adieu.
If you want to move it somewhere that it may not be a problem, where others can join in, great and please drop a link here to wherever it may be.
I sincerely thank you for your help in this, for your input and getting me thinking about it. We just can't relax completely until some of the more important things anyway, are settled in out hearts...then we just move on to another...sigh
Adieu.
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What is Jesus' commandment?
John 15:12 This is My commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
As best as we can? Why would any of us want to continue sinning on purpose in breaking God's law? Surely you don't believe we kill someone accidentally do you?
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect (does it today?), but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. The law did its job in the man asking what he must do to inherit eternal life.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
