Do our Servicemen DISHONOR God?

[westtexas]

That's correct Shad, but He also told the prostitute "Go and sin no more" . The soldier was commended for his faith. Not chastized for his profession as you are doing.

I disagree with your reasoning.

What part do you disagree with? You stated that our servicemen and women dishonor God because of their profession and that I dishonor God because I support these men and women. How do dishonor God with GREAT FAITH????? Col. 3:23 "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men"

Westtexas

 

[shad]

That's correct Shad, but He also told the prostitute "Go and sin no more" . The soldier was commended for his faith. Not chastized for his profession as you are doing.

I disagree with your reasoning.

What part do you disagree with? You stated that our servicemen and women dishonor God because of their profession and that I dishonor God because I support these men and women. How do dishonor God with GREAT FAITH????? Col. 3:23 "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men"

Westtexas

Jesus and His disciples did not harm anyone. They were always targeted by their enemy.

 

[Drew]

God or Jesus is not directly involved in this world's affairs anymore.

Of course he is :o

I know Christians who are serving in the military, and they are a light to those in darkness around them. Why should Christians not be part of the military? Should we totally abandon this world and let the enemy take over?

You seem to implicitly assume that "pacifism" involves giving up the battle to the enemy. I suggest that Jesus defeated the real enemy through precisely abandoning the approach of "force". Jesus entered history at the time that there was a strong movement in Israel to take up arms against the Romans. I suggest that Jesus repeatedly urged the Jews to abandon the military option and follow His agenda - walking the extra mile, turning the other cheek, etc.

Jesus defeated evil on the cross. Did he do this by fighting back? No. He did it by letting evil do its worst to Him on the cross. And yet, in the end, Jesus triumphed.

I suggest that while the way of the cross is deeply counter-intuitive to us, it is indeed our model for acting in the world. Strangely, the way to defeat evil appears to involve the route of non-violence.

 

[shad]

God or Jesus is not directly involved in this world's affairs anymore.

Of course he is :o

I know Christians who are serving in the military, and they are a light to those in darkness around them. Why should Christians not be part of the military? Should we totally abandon this world and let the enemy take over?

You seem to implicitly assume that "pacifism" involves giving up the battle to the enemy. I suggest that Jesus defeated the real enemy through precisely abandoning the approach of "force". Jesus entered history at the time that there was a strong movement in Israel to take up arms against the Romans. I suggest that Jesus repeatedly urged the Jews to abandon the military option and follow His agenda - walking the extra mile, turning the other cheek, etc.

Jesus defeated evil on the cross. Did he do this by fighting back? No. He did it by letting evil do its worst to Him on the cross. And yet, in the end, Jesus triumphed.

I suggest that while the way of the cross is deeply counter-intuitive to us, it is indeed our model for acting in the world. Strangely, the way to defeat evil appears to involve the route of non-violence.

You defend Jesus' word much better than I. Thank you.

 

[Drew]

Jesus also says His followers are not of this world.

I agree. I think that, in the matter of militarism, most in the North American church have really slipped back into a model where evil is fought using the "world's means - force. I think that Jesus words and life speak powerfully to a different model - one where evil is defeated by a different means. I admit that I have some deep reservations about this - common sense tells me that just force is required at times. But I just cannot square this with what Jesus teaches. The ways of the cross is deeply self-sacrificial and I suggest that we really do not take that seriously enough (myself included).

 

[shad]

Jesus also says His followers are not of this world.

I agree. I think that, in the matter of militarism, most in the North American church have really slipped back into a model where evil is fought using the "world's means - force. I think that Jesus words and life speak powerfully to a different model - one where evil is defeated by a different means. I admit that I have some deep reservations about this - common sense tells me that just force is required at times. But I just cannot square this with what Jesus teaches. The ways of the cross is deeply self-sacrificial and I suggest that we really do not take that seriously enough (myself included).

The military is of government and of world. His followers ought to stay away from politics. We dont know what is going on in political world.

 

[Drew]

Consider the Messianic expectations that filled the air at the time Jesus entered history. The Jews were looking for a person who would defeat the Romans militarily. The template for such a Messiah was this - he would go to Jerusalem, get enthroned as the rightful king, and defeat the Romans through the sword.

Well, Jesus did go to Jerusalem to become King. But he had in mind a different throne and He was intending to do battle with a different enemy. The throne of Jesus was the cross outside the city gates and the enemy he fought was Satan, not the Romans. He did not win the great victory by force of arms. He won it by letting evil attack Him on the cross, and exhaust itself to broken-ness in the process.

Now Jesus tells us to take up our crosses. It seems rather hard for me to believe that He would support our taking a decidedly "non cross like" approach to our enemies - that is, the use of military might.

As uncomfortable as it seems, even to me, I suggest that Jesus' action on the cross was not "the event that saves us" and has no further implications for us. I suggest that Jesus is telling us that the cross is a model for our acting in the world. And this means "fighting" evil using a different strategy than the use of force.

 

[Drew]

The military is of government and of world. His followers ought to stay away from politics. We dont know what is going on in political world.

Well ,we generally agree on the matter of the military, but we definitely do not agree on the "politics" issue. I see Jesus as a sitting King, albeit absent in body, who is lord over all institutions in the world, including governments. But perhaps that is another debate.

 

[shad]

The military is of government and of world. His followers ought to stay away from politics. We dont know what is going on in political world.

Well ,we generally agree on the matter of the military, but we definitely do not agree on the "politics" issue. I see Jesus as a sitting King, albeit absent in body, who is lord over all institutions in the world, including governments. But perhaps that is another debate.

Yes, this is different topic.

 

[ChevyRodeo]

Jesus Words are not the Law of Moses.

But the Bible is the WORD OF GOD

 

[westtexas]

[


I can see your point and I respect it. Perhaps a christian shouldn't join the military but what about the man or woman who becomes a christian while they are in the military? Should they desert?

Good question, they cannot desert, they have to finish their term. They can try changing to be a conscientious objector.

Would you say King David was sinning for killing Goliath and later leading Israel's army?

That is a good question about David and Goliath account, but I know God ordered David to destroy their enemy. You have to know that in OT times, God was directly involved with His people and ordered to destroy evil nations. God or Jesus is not directly involved in this world's affairs anymore.

It is a shame that you feel that way, Shad. Mal. 3:6 " I the Lord do not change" ---- Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" Our Lord was involved in the lives of his servants then and today, Our Lord detested evil nations then and today, and just as in the case of the Roman Soldier then and Our Military Men and Women today --He commends their faith THEN AND TODAY! When I go to bed tonight I'll make sure that I pray for peace, I'll also thank my Lord for the Godly men and women who stand in the gap. Westtexas

 

[shad]

Jesus Words are not the Law of Moses.

But the Bible is the WORD OF GOD

Yes, what is your point?

 

[jasoncran]

westtexas pray for this unit going to war the 690th mp co, friends of mine ship with them soon, cant discuss the timeframe here. also keep two friends of mine entering the service one in the navy the other in marine corps. jason

 

[shad]

It is a shame that you feel that way, Shad. Mal. 3:6 " I the Lord do not change" ---- Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" Our Lord was involved in the lives of his servants then and today,

Of course Jesus is involved with His servants.

Our Lord detested evil nations then and today, and just as in the case of the Roman Soldier then and Our Military Men and Women today

What makes you think America's enemy is evil? What makes you think America is just?

--He commends their faith THEN AND TODAY! When I go to bed tonight I'll make sure that I pray for peace, I'll also thank my Lord for the Godly men and women who stand in the gap. Westtexas

What makes you think that America has right to judge their enemy country as evil? You are forgetting that Jesus' servants are all over the world, even in your enemy's countries.

 

[westtexas]

westtexas pray for this unit going to war the 690th mp co, friends of mine ship with them soon, cant discuss the timeframe here. also keep two friends of mine entering the service one in the navy the other in marine corps. jason

I'll be proud to do it. They will be in my prayers!!!!
Your brother in Christ, Westtexas

 

[westtexas]

It is a shame that you feel that way, Shad. Mal. 3:6 " I the Lord do not change" ---- Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" Our Lord was involved in the lives of his servants then and today,

Of course Jesus is involved with His servants.

Our Lord detested evil nations then and today, and just as in the case of the Roman Soldier then and Our Military Men and Women today

What makes you think America's enemy is evil? What makes you think America is just?

[quote:1fqzp9zx] --He commends their faith THEN AND TODAY! When I go to bed tonight I'll make sure that I pray for peace, I'll also thank my Lord for the Godly men and women who stand in the gap. Westtexas

What makes you think that America has right to judge their enemy country as evil? You are forgetting that Jesus' servants are all over the world, even in your enemy's countries.[/quote:1fqzp9zx]
You are wrong sir, I have not forgotten anything. I have not forgotten that you stated that our servicemen and women dishonor God with their service. I have not forgotten that in the U.S.A. we are a God-fearing nation that has the privilege of prayer and can ask for the guidance of our Lord before we make any decision. I have not forgotten that YOU live in a country where you can worship as you see fit to do. And I have also not forgotten that you have these freedoms because of the men and women that you have the freedom to slander in your posts! All of your posts remind me of the Pharisee in prayer who says "thank you Lord that my faith is so much better than these soldiers for I am your simple servant Shad" You have the freedom to think and believe as you see fit because of our Lord Jesus, but regardless of what you think-your faith is no greater than the men and women who serve our Lord and our country. Westtexas

 

[shad]

You are wrong sir, I have not forgotten anything. I have not forgotten that you stated that our servicemen and women dishonor God with their service.

Yes, I can say that confidently because Jesus commands His followers to "love your enemy". The military kills your enemy. Is your country's freedom worth more than Jesus?

I have not forgotten that in the U.S.A. we are a God-fearing nation that has the privilege of prayer and can ask for the guidance of our Lord before we make any decision. I have not forgotten that YOU live in a country where you can worship as you see fit to do. And I have also not forgotten that you have these freedoms because of the men and women that you have the freedom to slander in your posts!

I am free in Christ, you seem to be relying on worldly freedom. Jesus' servants are free in Christ wherever they are. If you live by the sword, you die by the sword, says Jesus.

All of your posts remind me of the Pharisee in prayer who says "thank you Lord that my faith is so much better than these soldiers for I am your simple servant Shad" You have the freedom to think and believe as you see fit because of our Lord Jesus, but regardless of what you think-your faith is no greater than the men and women who serve our Lord and our country. Westtexas

It is strange accusation and slander because most churches are trinitarians and they are persecuting non-trinitarians as non-believers.

 

[Drew]

It is a shame that you feel that way, Shad. Mal. 3:6 " I the Lord do not change" ---- Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" Our Lord was involved in the lives of his servants then and today, Our Lord detested evil nations then and today, and just as in the case of the Roman Soldier then and Our Military Men and Women today --He commends their faith THEN AND TODAY! When I go to bed tonight I'll make sure that I pray for peace, I'll also thank my Lord for the Godly men and women who stand in the gap. Westtexas

This is not a very good argument, although one sees it quite often.

The fact that God does not change does not mean that He cannot implement a plan in the world that involves change. Surely we must understand that it is entirely coherent that the "war" in the Old Testament was something that had to be undertaken to achieve a particular purpose. But once that purpose was achieved, one can reasonably understand that the time for war has come to an end.

People use this same kind of "God does not change" reasoning to suppor the notion that the Law of Moses has not been abolished. Yet Paul clearly declares that it has, as does Jesus.

The fact that God's character does not change does not mean that there cannot be "seasons" in his plan of redemption where certain things are for certain times only. Torah is one example. And I think that "waging war" is similar. There was a distinct "need" for God to encourage the Israelites to be war-like - a need that is intimately tied to an unfolding plan of redemption. That need has been fulfilled and I see every reason for Christians to disavow militarism.

Having said that, I have great respect for the self-sacrifice and bravery of military people as individuals. I just do not think that the Christian is called to participate in, or promote, the philosophy of "militarism". I suspect I will need to explain what I mean by this term. Perhaps later