My mother sponsors a very nice family in India. They live high up in the foothills of the Himalayas and have been so secluded from the rest of the world that they have never heard of God, Jesus or the bible. The father recently passed away, which raised the question in our family; did he go to heaven or hell. So i am curious, does a very kind-hearted man whom has never hurt a fly and spent his life enriching the life of others spend an eternity of damnation because he has never heard the word?
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Do u Need jesus to get into Heaven?
- Thread starter Confucius
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Mike
Member
Welcome to CFnet. This question is a source of concern for many people, but I believe God's Grace is something we can't determine.
Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
What I have always taken this to mean is that every person is held accountable for the revelation Given them. If a person has heard the full Gospel, there is no excuse for denying Christ. But if what s/he is Given is the awareness of His Creation, He makes Himself known and stirs the heart by this means. I believe if this is the extent of one's revelation and s/he accepts it and humbles self to Creator, the full knowledge of Christ and His Sacrifice isn't necessary. But it's His Grace, His Wise Providence; not mine.
Romans 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
What I have always taken this to mean is that every person is held accountable for the revelation Given them. If a person has heard the full Gospel, there is no excuse for denying Christ. But if what s/he is Given is the awareness of His Creation, He makes Himself known and stirs the heart by this means. I believe if this is the extent of one's revelation and s/he accepts it and humbles self to Creator, the full knowledge of Christ and His Sacrifice isn't necessary. But it's His Grace, His Wise Providence; not mine.
That's a great post Mike.
People wll quote "No-one comes to the Father, but through me" -- but I feel that passage is easily misunderstood. In fact, I don't fully understand it, but just saying you are a Christian doesn't equal the above saying IMHO, there's certainly more depth to it.
We could pose a few scenario's where someone hasn't heard of Christ - how about a baby that dies a few days old? What of their salvation? We who know the Gospel should be thankful, for it is a gift... God is in control, thats all I know
Mike S
Member
I know Christ as my Savior, but God is God, and I can't presume to know the limits of His Grace. God will save whom God will save.
I try to live my life according to something attibuted to St. Francis, "Preach the Gospel always...and use words if necessary", and leave the rest to God.
I try to live my life according to something attibuted to St. Francis, "Preach the Gospel always...and use words if necessary", and leave the rest to God.
Amen.
Very true and often either forgotten or suppressed.
God's grace is His alone and He knows exactly what is in our hearts.
1st of all, the short of it is no one goes to heaven. Heaven is not the reward of the saved...
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
This scripture is commonly misapplied as a proof of heaven but read it carefully...
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Christ goes to prepare a reward, He returns, brings it with Him and remains on the earth. We remain here with Him.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
Joh 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
Joh 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
This scripture is commonly misapplied as a proof of heaven but read it carefully...
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Christ goes to prepare a reward, He returns, brings it with Him and remains on the earth. We remain here with Him.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
There are many people who died without the knowledge of Christianity and Jesus. How would God judge them? They have the law. Did they obey their leaders and rulers?
Former Christian
Member
Another vote for Mike's view here. As Jesus said to Peter,
John 21:
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
This may be about believers. But the principle is the same. Jesus is Lord, not us. God is God, not us. If the bible is true and God and Jesus Christ are as gracious as the bible says, then sometimes we are given to worrying about things that not only don't concern us or that we can do anything about, but we worry about things that in the end is a denial of our trust in God. Surely we need to take to heart,
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
FC
John 21:
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
This may be about believers. But the principle is the same. Jesus is Lord, not us. God is God, not us. If the bible is true and God and Jesus Christ are as gracious as the bible says, then sometimes we are given to worrying about things that not only don't concern us or that we can do anything about, but we worry about things that in the end is a denial of our trust in God. Surely we need to take to heart,
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
FC
E
Elijah674
Guest
Surely Inspiration has this as you say.
Rom. 2:14-15 finds this Truth, and even finds the one or ones.. with Christ's Law written in their hearts. All created mankind have had the Holy Spirit trying to save them. And the Lord's Second Bible is Their one of NATURE it says in bottom line! (still Acts 5:32 + John 3:3-8 is [was] mandatory)--Elijah
There is more than one day of salvation...
Isa 49:8 Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
There is more than one resurrection...
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
There are those who are in the first resurrection...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
These are the ones noted in Rev 20:4-5 who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. This resurrection is spoken of in 1Ths 4:16-17...
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
These are those God has called in this age.
Now we read this passage and know that it is truth...
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
So what about this kind hearted man you spoke of? Is he furnace fodder? What about the Chinese who lived 4000 years ago and never heard the name of Christ? Sorry about their luck? That is not the God of Heaven that deserves our worship and praise. He has a plan for these people.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
In the above verse, notice the parenthetical thought "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." So if they lived again, that demands a resurrection from the dead and that is exactly what happens...
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Notice that there are books opened to them and there is also the Book of Life. What are the books? Well, they are all 66 books that Christians are being judged out of today. We call them the Holy Bible. These people are given 100 years to choose life...
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Unfortunately there are those who do not choose life...
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Which brings us back to Rev 20:13-15 and the third resurrection...
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Notice that this time, the books are not opened. These are those who have had there chance, made their choice and it was not to choose life. They are burned up in the lake of fire.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
These become...
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
For after all...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So the truth of God is that this kind hearted man you spoke of, who never knew God or Christ is not going to heaven, neither is he going to hell. He is coming up again in a resurrection to human life and he will be give his first opportunity to choose. At that time, I sincerely believe he will choose life.
Surely Inspiration has this as you say.
--Elijah
Sorry, but I gotta disagree here...
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Again, God has a plan and a timetable. He will call whom He will call and call them when He will. This is not the only day of salvation, His plan is far more magnificent than that...
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
His plan is far greater than humans have reasoned.
Former Christian
Member
Digger
And what nation would that be?
FC
And what nation would that be?
FC
J
JJsaint
Guest
Acts 4:12:Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
As for ''sponsor'' - to take care of the needs of another...
1 Timothy 5:8:But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
E
Elijah674
Guest
As stated prior in Rom. 2:14-15, these ones only had the Lords created nature for Truth. And saved they are. And James below tells us who the 'real' sinners are! And who can be guilty of something that they do not know??? Rom. 8:14 Only these!
James 4
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
If one was serious?? They have the Lord's [[WORD]] for who will burn the longest in hell, and it will not be as most believe. For most are in the BROADWAY of Christ's Word as seen in Matt, 7.
And about the same as Matt. 23
[1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
[2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
[3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
--Elijah
James 4
[17] Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
If one was serious?? They have the Lord's [[WORD]] for who will burn the longest in hell, and it will not be as most believe. For most are in the BROADWAY of Christ's Word as seen in Matt, 7.
And about the same as Matt. 23
[1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
[2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
[3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
--Elijah
E
elijah23
Guest
Jesus said the law and prophets depend on two commandments: We are to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, and souls, and love our neighbors as ourselves. I think all people who obey these two commandments will enter heaven.
J
JJsaint
Guest
If someone has not heard of Jesus how can they follow what Jesus says?
So Christ isn't the only way?
Mike
Member
If they've heard the Gospel, they will be held accountable for being in rebellion. Deut 4:29 says, "But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul." This sounds very familiar to something Jesus said, don't you think. God reveals Himself to all men, and in some cases, it is a limited revelation, and they will be held accountable for that.
I, for one, will not say that Righteous Judgment will mean for people who never heard about Jesus. Instead of being presumptuous about their doom, I'd rather tell who I can about the Way, so they can be securely in His Grace.
