Do u Need jesus to get into Heaven?

[JacobBoheme]

The Christian Scriptures teach that the only way to the Father is through the Word / Logos. I don't believe this necessarily implies that it's only through the historical form of Christianity, it's scriptures, and traditions that men can have a relationship with the Word , who is the Light that enlightens every man [John 1:9], though. It may be possible for a person to follow the Logos without having had the blessing of coming into contact with the Christian tradition or having had it explained to them in a way worthy of acceptance. The early Christian apologist Justin Martyr even went so far as to call certain pre-Christian Greeks "Christians before Christ" because they were followers of the Logos despite not having the benefit of the Scriptures. The only "problem" is that I have no way to judge any specific individual in this regard no matter how much information I get on them. Ultimately it's up to God in his mercy and man in the orientation of his soul. I don't get to make those decisions obviously.

All you can do is share the word (through compassion and if the appropriate scenario presents itself via words), pray for people, and then entrust them to the mercy of God really. Some Christians believe in praying for people even after they have passed from this earth and others don't. I'm with the former group. It's never too late to pray for someone imo because God isn't bound to linear time like we are. But if you find such prayers problematic then they might not be for you. I think everyone agrees with praying for people while they are still in the flesh though and there should be no controversy there.

Good question btw. It's a issue that often troubles me and I wrestle with it fairly often too.

 

[Classik]

Praying for the dead to make heaven? :dunno

 

[Slider]

John 14.6 is a great reference point anyway.

Yea, really good point. It's pretty much the 400 lbs gorilla in the room. Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the light. He said no man can see the Father except through him. We have a kind, gentle man in the isolated Himalayia mountains. It's a tough thing to say, but what did Jesus say? Maybe God will have mercy on him, and I hope he does.

But I can't deny what the scripture says. Jesus is the ONLY way.

 

[Classik]

Yea, really good point. It's pretty much the 400 lbs gorilla in the room. Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the light. He said no man can see the Father except through him. We have a kind, gentle man in the isolated Himalayia mountains. It's a tough thing to say, but what did Jesus say? Maybe God will have mercy on him, and I hope he does.

But I can't deny what the scripture says. Jesus is the ONLY way.

Jesus is the Only Way. But, what some are saying here is not contradictory to it: How about people who never heard about Jesus?

 

[Slider]

Jesus is the Only Way. But, what some are saying here is not contradictory to it: How about people who never heard about Jesus?

I don't have a sound answer to that, Classik. The only way is, well... "The only way!" Jesus said, "I have sheep you don't know about" [paraphrasing]. So how do you know they never heard about them? In 33 AD Jesus covered about 60 miles or so. Paul and the other apostles, from Portugal to maybe India down to the lower parts of Ethopia and maybe as far north as Ireland. In THAT day.... Today, I wonder if there is anyone who hasn't heard of Jesus.

I have some hard answers which the board may not want to hear. But let me just say I will let the Lord judge them.

 

[Classik]

Thanks
God has His own way of doing things.

 

[JacobBoheme]

Praying for the dead to make heaven?

No worse then praying for the salvation of those who are with us still on earth imo but I know it can be controversial. I don't believe God is bound by the constraints of time. With God anything is possible. Christians have been praying for the dead since the earliest days of the Church (some believe that Paul was doing exactly that in 2 Tim 16-18) and before that Jews had been doing it for centuries as well. I don't believe it's some essential point of Christian teaching or anything but I find it very useful in my walk with the Lord. Right now I know Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox (Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, etc..), Oriental Orthodox (Coptic Orthodox Church...), Church of the East (so called "Nestorian Church"), and some Lutherans* all make use of prayers for the dead.

*The Reformer Martin Luther said the following on the practice.

As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: 'Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.' And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice.

(Luther's Works, vol. 37, p. 369)

 

[Classik]

It will help us (that is, if it's possible).
But, there's a verse that talks about 'consciousness of an individual and his salvation' whilst still living. I don't remember the verse.


I know people make such prayers. How I wish it is an alternative. I dunno

 

[elijah23]

If someone has not heard of Jesus how can they follow what Jesus says?

God finds a way to teach all people to love him with all their hearts, minds, and souls, and love their neighbors as themselves. That is part of his greatness.

 

[Mike S]

God finds a way to teach all people to love him with all their hearts, minds, and souls, and love their neighbors as themselves. That is part of his greatness.

There is prevenient grace: "...the divine love that surrounds all humanity and precedes any and all of our conscious impulses. This grace prompts our first wish to please God, our first glimmer of understanding concerning God's will, and our 'first slight transient conviction' of having sinned against God. God's grace also awakens in us an earnest longing for deliverance from sin and death and moves us toward repentance and faith."

God's Holy Spirit is at work within us even before we have any idea who Christ is.

 

[JJsaint]

God finds a way to teach all people to love him with all their hearts, minds, and souls, and love their neighbors as themselves. That is part of his greatness.

John 10:27:My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If someone does not know Jesus how can God make them a sheep?

 

[elijah23]

John 10:27:My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If someone does not know Jesus how can God make them a sheep?

I believe Jesus is God in flesh. If you know God, you know Jesus. If you know Jesus, you know God.

If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him. John 14:7 RSV

 

[Mike S]

John 10:27:My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

If someone does not know Jesus how can God make them a sheep?

Are we to presume to know God's limitations? God will save whom He will save. His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways.

It doesn't bother me that I don't have a theological answer for all questions, there is mystery to Christianity. I'm content to live according to His will as best I can understand it, and leave salvation to Him.

 

[JJsaint]

Are we to presume to know God's limitations? God will save whom He will save. His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways.

It doesn't bother me that I don't have a theological answer for all questions, there is mystery to Christianity. I'm content to live according to His will as best I can understand it, and leave salvation to Him.

Acts 4:12:Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14:6-7:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


John 10:1:Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.


John 10:2-4:2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


John 10:9:I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


Aren't God's limitations,Jesus?

 

[min_is_3]

Jesus is the Only Way. But, what some are saying here is not contradictory to it: How about people who never heard about Jesus?

People who have never heard about Jesus and therefore did not put their faith in Him will have same result as those who have heard about Jesus and did not put their faith in Him; hell.

is God obligated to bring the Gospel to everyone? No, He is not because nowhere does the bible say that He must give the Gospel to everyone. But He is obligated to bring punishment for sins whether by the sinner themselves or by Christ because of justice. It wouldn't be Grace if God was forced or obligated to give it.

The bible is pretty clear that you can't get to the Father without going through Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which people can be saved (acts 4:12), Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1tim 2:5), eternal life is not only knowing the Father but also the Son (john 17:3)

Romans 1 and 2 teaches us that general revelation is enough information to condemn people, but not enough to save people since faith in Jesus is a necessary condition. So someone who is all by himself in a deserted island without a bible is because he has sinned against God because by nature, he is a law breaker of the law written in his heart.

God is not obligated to save anyone. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. But that extension of mercy will not be without faith in Christ.

Knowing this is why evangelism and missionary work is so important. There are many people in the world that have yet to hear the Gospel presentation, hear about the awfulness of their sins and the just consequence that awaits them. And that their only way of escape is to abandon all hopes of a "I'm good enough" or "I believe in some higher power" form of salvation. If Jesus wasn't the only way, then there wouldn't be such an importance of preaching Christ and Him crucified but rather hoping that the "other way" is enough.

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[Mike S]

Acts 4:12:Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 14:6-7:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.


John 10:1:Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.


John 10:2-4:2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.


John 10:9:I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


Aren't God's limitations,Jesus?

God's interactions with humanity, His ongoing revelations, are His to make. I have no more understanding of His limitations than Job, nor any other of His creatures.

 

[Mike S]

People who have never heard about Jesus and therefore did not put their faith in Him will have same result as those who have heard about Jesus and did not put their faith in Him; hell.

is God obligated to bring the Gospel to everyone? No, He is not because nowhere does the bible say that He must give the Gospel to everyone. But He is obligated to bring punishment for sins whether by the sinner themselves or by Christ because of justice. It wouldn't be Grace if God was forced or obligated to give it.

The bible is pretty clear that you can't get to the Father without going through Jesus. There is no other name under heaven by which people can be saved (acts 4:12), Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1tim 2:5), eternal life is not only knowing the Father but also the Son (john 17:3)

Romans 1 and 2 teaches us that general revelation is enough information to condemn people, but not enough to save people since faith in Jesus is a necessary condition. So someone who is all by himself in a deserted island without a bible is because he has sinned against God because by nature, he is a law breaker of the law written in his heart.

God is not obligated to save anyone. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. But that extension of mercy will not be without faith in Christ.

Knowing this is why evangelism and missionary work is so important. There are many people in the world that have yet to hear the Gospel presentation, hear about the awfulness of their sins and the just consequence that awaits them. And that their only way of escape is to abandon all hopes of a "I'm good enough" or "I believe in some higher power" form of salvation. If Jesus wasn't the only way, then there wouldn't be such an importance of preaching Christ and Him crucified but rather hoping that the "other way" is enough.

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It's important for me to live my life as much in accordance with God's will as I'm capable of. Accepting Christ as Savior, and preaching the Gospel is part of that. But there is no chance of anyone in this life knowing God's limits, because He has none...He created all there is, and exists outside time and space.

Your firm conviction that you know with absolute certainty what God can and can't do, what is necessary for salvation, sounds a lot like the Pharisees' obsession with minute detail of the law being necessary for righteousness. They, after all, had all of God's written and revealed knowledge of the time available to them, so why shouldn't they be certain of themselves?

 

[Mike]

Are we to presume to know God's limitations? God will save whom He will save. His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways.

It doesn't bother me that I don't have a theological answer for all questions, there is mystery to Christianity. I'm content to live according to His will as best I can understand it, and leave salvation to Him.

Agreed. +1

It's important for me to live my life as much in accordance with God's will as I'm capable of. Accepting Christ as Savior, and preaching the Gospel is part of that. But there is no chance of anyone in this life knowing God's limits, because He has none...He created all there is, and exists outside time and space.

Your firm conviction that you know with absolute certainty what God can and can't do, what is necessary for salvation, sounds a lot like the Pharisees' obsession with minute detail of the law being necessary for righteousness. They, after all, had all of God's written and revealed knowledge of the time available to them, so why shouldn't they be certain of themselves?

Agreed. +2

People make the mistake of suggesting we dilute the power of the Name, Jesus, when we allow for the possibility that God, in all His Providence, will favor those who responded to a limited revelation. I think we both know this is a false criticism. There's something bigger at work here than the certainty of some that "so & so" will go to hell. There's pride.

I believe it's best to avoid such confidence in our own exhaustive knowledge of His Judgment. I've been guilty of arguing fiercely on one side of arguments that will be answered in His time, but I am most confident in this: When I reach the hereafter and the veil is lifted, I will reflect on the many things I was so wrong about, I will be surprised that some were Given Life, and I'll be surprised that some were not.

Who has ever known the mind of the Lord. Or who has been His Counselor?

 

[min_is_3]

It's important for me to live my life as much in accordance with God's will as I'm capable of. Accepting Christ as Savior, and preaching the Gospel is part of that. But there is no chance of anyone in this life knowing God's limits, because He has none...He created all there is, and exists outside time and space.

Your firm conviction that you know with absolute certainty what God can and can't do, what is necessary for salvation, sounds a lot like the Pharisees' obsession with minute detail of the law being necessary for righteousness. They, after all, had all of God's written and revealed knowledge of the time available to them, so why shouldn't they be certain of themselves?

Hi mark,

Thanks for responding. I'm not sure how the comparison with a pharisee applies since I am not speaking of a works/righteousness gospel as they did. maybe you can further clarify that example for me.

But to say that God does not have limits is not right. He is limited by His nature. It is impossible for Him to lie, the bible says. I would say that is a limit. God also puts on a self-imposed limit. And in the case of salvation, that is what He has done. He has limited the path to Himself through His Son only. That's what Jesus also said. That's what the Apostles teach. Why would there be so much written about Christ's death and blood atonement if another way without Him was possible?

And yes, as Christians we are to have a firm conviction of our faith.

Hebrews 10:19-25 "Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

How can we have a full assurance of faith if we can't be certain that Jesus is the only way or not? If He isn't truly the only available option, and some form of limited knowledge of God is enough for some people, why have a full assurance on Jesus when there is a viable second option? I don't believe that the bible offers a second option.

I totally understand the feelings of the original poster and the sensitive nature of this topic. I lost my father when I was three years old and he was not a believer or even religious for that matter. He loved my mom and I but he was also a transgressor of God's law written in his heart.

But when I grew into adulthood, the Lord saved me and led me to preach the true Gospel of salvation to my mom as well. She's been a believer for many years now, not from my work alone but also through other faithful Christians but we also know that my father wasn't as "fortunate", to use a worldly term. For whatever the reason, God had mercy on us and not on my dad. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.

I know he's my father and I would like to think better thoughts about his eternal condition, but my sentiments have to come second to the truth of God's word. And God's word says that in Christ we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins (Colossians 1:13-14).

And I know that my dad will have to pay for his sins on his own for eternity on the day of judgment. And since it's too late for him, it should be a motivator for me to share with my family that are still alive and do not know the Lord.

As the Hebrews 10:19 says that as believers, we have the confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus. This doesn't leave any room for some other way.

 

[handy]

min_is_3,

I appreciate you sharing your testimony, but the case of your father, who almost assuredly heard the gospel, is different than those who lived and died without ever hearing of the Gospel, Jesus, or even the Bible.

Those who hear the gospel and reject it are in a far different state than those who have never heard.

Remember, Paul said that God overlooks the times of ignorance. The path is and always will be through Jesus, even if those who responded to His invisible attributes via creation will only recognize that it was Him they were responding to in life on Judgement Day.

We are most assuredly more blessed to know the gospel and not be in ignorance, but I don't believe the Bible teaches that those who were born, live and die in ignorance are wholly without hope.

It reminds me of Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."

We have full assurance that if we believe and are baptized we have eternal life. But, this text does not tell us that if we are not baptized, we will be condemned.

The Bible fully assures us that if we believe in the Gospel we will be saved. It also is clear that if we reject Christ we will be lost. But, the Bible does not emphatically state that all the millions and millions of people who were born, lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus, are hopelessly lost...just that they will be judged by Him. To say that they are hopelessly lost is to say more than what the Scriptures teach us.

Now, this is no way diminishes our need to evangelize and spread the gospel, for it is only through believing the Gospel can we ever have assurance.