Do We Need to Keep the Sabbath (The LORD's Day) Holy?

[Ahuli]

Jesus is called the Lord of the Sabbath. Why is that? It's because the work of the redemption of mankind was completed at the cross. Jesus fulfilled all the law and the prophets. He is now our Sabbath rest. Today is that other day spoken of...the day of salvation. Now, the work of salvation is done.

The work that God is doing is no longer the work of a physical creation but the work of a spiritual creation. He is creating sons in His image. Christ is Redeemer, Deliverer, Savior....He came and redeemed, delivered, and saved....He is the rest. As we enter into His rest, the Sabbath is fulfilled.

Jesus' work of redemption has absolutely nothing to do with Sabbath-keeping or no one would have kept it after him.

Sabbath is part of the rules of God by which we live. Those rules will not, cannot change. God does not change, his rules do not change. That practice applies to earthly rulers who are arbitrary in what they do including the laws they give.

If the Sabbath is fulfilled, then the other commandments are as well and we do not have to bother with them. In other words, we can kill at will, etc. Strange, that one commandment is so obnoxious to folks that they are willing to make up all kinds of theories about why they are no longer obliged. Or is it?

Some of the Jews continued in their traditions for a time...that does not mean we should? To say we can kill at will is silly. Jesus said we aren't even to hate or we've killed already. Why must you take such large leaps of logic in order to make a point that shouldn't be made in the first place. Every single moment of every single day we are to partake of the Sabbath rest. The New Testament is a higher calling than the Old and yet so many cling to it like it is life itself.

Jesus and to a large part the New Testament dwellers, taught from the Old Testament. When HE said to search the scriptures because they testify of HIM, HE meant the Old Testament. That is what the Bereans used, etc. The ten commandments are not Jewish tradition, or any other kind.

As for my logic! I'm not troubled by your observation.

 

[Ahuli]

Every single moment of every single day we are to partake of the Sabbath rest. The New Testament is a higher calling than the Old and yet so many cling to it like it is life itself.

I am sorrrry that your are confused! But if you wold just read the forth required commandment, you 'mighy' just see that it says much more that your remark of doing nothing.
--Elijah

I'm trying to imagine someone not knowing what Jesus and others used when teaching. I can't.

 

[Ahuli]

And sabbaths? You do know that the day Christ rested (dead) in the tomb was a high day, do you not? John 19:30-31? (+) Notice that the Lamb was to slain at the evening offering of sacrifice, Friday the preparation day. The day of atonement. And plural?? *Sabbath & sabbath. (is that what you are asking?)

That Jesus, after HIS crucifixion, rested on the Sabbath day, is another stumbling block for many. Those who don't want to acknowledge that this commandment is a memorial to creation, which is what it tells us it is. God cannot remove it, unless He removes creation.

 

[glorydaz]

And sabbaths? You do know that the day Christ rested (dead) in the tomb was a high day, do you not? John 19:30-31? (+) Notice that the Lamb was to slain at the evening offering of sacrifice, Friday the preparation day. The day of atonement. And plural?? *Sabbath & sabbath. (is that what you are asking?)

That Jesus, after HIS crucifixion, rested on the Sabbath day, is another stumbling block for many. Those who don't want to acknowledge that this commandment is a memorial to creation, which is what it tells us it is. God cannot remove it, unless He removes creation.

God didn't remove it, but He did move on to the eighth day ...a day of "New Beginnings." Our sabbath is not one day of rest for the body, but an eternal rest for the soul. Our place of rest is not in the land but in Christ Jesus...the Place of God's Promise. The "promised sabbath" is the new birth...our day of salvation.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (sabbath).

Hear what Paul says of those who observe days, and months, and times, and years...

But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Jesus brought in this "another day" that was spoken of...

For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

 

[Elijah674]

You did not read that well? The Holy Spirit Inspired the QUESTION,[/color] and then before any coud bothch up His question HE ANSWERED IT HIMSELF! And that is Spot On, there does remain a Day of Rest to Christ OWN! IF! If ye [LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS]. Christ said!
--Elijah

 

[glorydaz]

You did not read that well? The Holy Spirit Inspired the QUESTION,[/color] and then before any coud bothch up His question HE ANSWERED IT HIMSELF! And that is Spot On, there does remain a Day of Rest to Christ OWN! IF! If ye [LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS]. Christ said!
--Elijah

What exactly are you saying here? I really can't make heads or tails out of it. I'm more than happy to respond, but first you must make yourself clear. Jesus gave us many more commands than the Ten, and we have a higher calling than did the children of Israel. Keeping the sabbath was not one of them.

 

[Geo]

Luke 18:20  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

everyone knows the commandments, and knows what Jersus was referring to. Except members of other or new religions.

this one however is only for His own disciples, not for someone elses':

John 14:21  He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

 

[Geo]

"I'm trying to imagine someone not knowing what Jesus and others used when teaching. I can't."

I can Ahuli. It's obvious on these forums that at least some think history started with them. Just like some think the world officially opened in 1776 and didn't exist before. Jesus The Word however was and is The Word prior to Genesis. He is the Word of the old and the new testaments. Also : "everlasting covenants" already started with creation, mentioned in Genesis 9:16 to Noah and all mankind. Then much later : some of us are grafted into an everlasting covenant also, that however also already existed. Abraham's seed covenant (Genesis 17:9).

When God says "keep it for ever - for a perpetual covenant (never ending)" it means just that. Sabbath(s) are eternal and part of an everlasting covenant that never changes and active since creation and then also mentioned as being valid for the seed of Abraham. It existed already prior to the covenant with Moses. It will exist into all future too. It will not change its substance or form for people that invent "christanese terms" that suggest it would change its form or substance. Scripture itself is prove and very clear that it will be part of the millennium in its original form (unchanged !!) Sabbaths and Jesus the person are distinct and will never merge. Neither are sabbath rest and rest in Jesus identical. That's a just a human idea, not God's. Pure myth and if propagated a plain lie by inventive minds, that read what God clearly says, but do not believe it.

 

[glorydaz]

"I'm trying to imagine someone not knowing what Jesus and others used when teaching. I can't."

I can Ahuli. It's obvious on these forums that at least some think history started with them. Just like some think the world officially opened in 1776 and didn't exist before. Jesus The Word however was and is The Word prior to Genesis. He is the Word of the old and the new testaments. Also : "everlasting covenants" already started with creation, mentioned in Genesis 9:16 to Noah and all mankind. Then much later : some of us are grafted into an everlasting covenant also, that however also already existed. Abraham's seed covenant (Genesis 17:9).

When God says "keep it for ever - for a perpetual covenant (never ending)" it means just that. Sabbath(s) are eternal and part of an everlasting covenant that never changes and active since creation and then also mentioned as being valid for the seed of Abraham. It existed already prior to the covenant with Moses. It will exist into all future too. It will not change its substance or form for people that invent "christanese terms" that suggest it would change its form or substance. Scripture itself is prove and very clear that it will be part of the millennium in its original form (unchanged !!) Sabbaths and Jesus the person are distinct and will never merge. Neither are sabbath rest and rest in Jesus identical. That's a just a human idea, not God's. Pure myth and if propagated a plain lie by inventive minds, that read what God clearly says, but do not believe it.

That's simply untrue. Just as the priesthood changed...just as the Covenant changed...just as the commandments changed, the Sabbath changed as well. We have a new and better covenant, we have a high priest that made one offering forever, we have the commandments changed from the external to the internal...where what we think is as important as what we do. And Jesus is our sabbath rest...the "other day" that was spoken of in the OT is the day of salvation. The eighth day of "new beginnings".

 

[Ahuli]

"I'm trying to imagine someone not knowing what Jesus and others used when teaching. I can't."

I can Ahuli. It's obvious on these forums that at least some think history started with them. Just like some think the world officially opened in 1776 and didn't exist before. Jesus The Word however was and is The Word prior to Genesis. He is the Word of the old and the new testaments. Also : "everlasting covenants" already started with creation, mentioned in Genesis 9:16 to Noah and all mankind. Then much later : some of us are grafted into an everlasting covenant also, that however also already existed. Abraham's seed covenant (Genesis 17:9).

When God says "keep it for ever - for a perpetual covenant (never ending)" it means just that. Sabbath(s) are eternal and part of an everlasting covenant that never changes and active since creation and then also mentioned as being valid for the seed of Abraham. It existed already prior to the covenant with Moses. It will exist into all future too. It will not change its substance or form for people that invent "christanese terms" that suggest it would change its form or substance. Scripture itself is prove and very clear that it will be part of the millennium in its original form (unchanged !!) Sabbaths and Jesus the person are distinct and will never merge. Neither are sabbath rest and rest in Jesus identical. That's a just a human idea, not God's. Pure myth and if propagated a plain lie by inventive minds, that read what God clearly says, but do not believe it.

That's simply untrue. Just as the priesthood changed...just as the Covenant changed...just as the commandments changed, the Sabbath changed as well. We have a new and better covenant, we have a high priest that made one offering forever, we have the commandments changed from the external to the internal...where what we think is as important as what we do. And Jesus is our sabbath rest...the "other day" that was spoken of in the OT is the day of salvation. The eighth day of "new beginnings".

To help me understand what you are saying, and the denominationalism behind your words, what denomination speaks the way you do?

 

[glorydaz]

That's simply untrue. Just as the priesthood changed...just as the Covenant changed...just as the commandments changed, the Sabbath changed as well. We have a new and better covenant, we have a high priest that made one offering forever, we have the commandments changed from the external to the internal...where what we think is as important as what we do. And Jesus is our sabbath rest...the "other day" that was spoken of in the OT is the day of salvation. The eighth day of "new beginnings".

To help me understand what you are saying, and the denominationalism behind your words, what denomination speaks the way you do?

Gosh...all you need to do is read the Word of God.
I don't follow after denominations or doctrines of men...it comes straight from the Bible.

A new and better Covenant...

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The priesthood has changed...

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Here we see the commandment..."Thou shalt not kill" (external). Jesus says, "But I say unto you..." whoever is angry (internal) without a cause or whoever calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell fire. Can you see the higher calling I'm speaking about?

Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

I've already provided plenty of scripture showing Jesus is our sabbath rest. You may ignore it if you wish, but it's all right there in the Word of God. And, btw, most Christians know this already...some cults still observe the new moons and sabbaths, but that does not mean it's meant for believers.

 

[Drew]

God didn't put the law on the hearts of those in the OT. You just made that up ! Sadly

I agree. Gd's position here is not scriptural.

Looks like you boys are suggesting that our consciences do not bear witness to God's law.

Yes that is what is what I am saying. God's law is the Law of Moses. I have nowhere denied that God does not speak to our consciences/.

But, as Mysterman has said, GOd never wrote the Law of Moses onto anybody's heart in OT times.

 

[Drew]

In Romans 2, there is a statement about the “law†being written on the heart of the Gentile:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Although this text is widely seen as suggesting that God’s “law†is written on the hearts of human beings in general, Paul here is instead describing the writing of the “law†on the hearts of believers (and in this context, specifically Gentile believers).

The entire discussion turns on the Greek word that has been translated here in the NASB as “instinctively†in verse 14. I am going to argue that this rendering does not properly express Paul’s intent. I will argue that Paul basis assertion is not this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively do the things of the Law…â€

…but instead this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law by birth, do the things of the Law….

The reader should note that while the first rendering indeed suggests that pagan Gentiles have a form of law written on their hearts, the second rendering in no sense preferentially supports such a reading over a reading where it is only believing Gentiles that have the law written on their heart (the position that I hold).

The greek root word at issue is “fuseiâ€, which is often translated as “by nature†(although not in the NASB rendering of 2:14 where it is rendered as “instinctivelyâ€). The western reader should be careful to understand this properly. Paul uses this very same word, in other contexts, to denote what is true of someone by virtue of the circumstances of their birth. One example is Ephesian 2:3:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

Perhaps more tellingly, we have this same root “fusei†used just a few verses further on in Romans 2:

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “physically†and as “instinctively†in verse 14. Note how the word is rendered in the YLT translation of 2:27:

and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.

Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in verse 27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of birth for the Gentile. It seems only reasonable that Paul uses this same greek root in the same “by birth†sense only a few verses back in 2:14.

Thus, it is highly plausible that what Paul is saying in about the law in verse 14 is that the Gentiles do not possess it by the circumstances of their birth, and not that the unregenerate Gentile has an innate, or instinctive sense of the law.

In fact, note how Jeremiah, uses very same “law written on the heart†concept:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Note how the prophet uses “law written on the heart†language to describe something that will happen in the future and will which will be effective only for believers. Paul is deeply knowledgeable of Old Testament concepts and would more likely tan not use “law written on the heart†language in the same way it was used in the Old Testament.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree. Gd's position here is not scriptural.

Looks like you boys are suggesting that our consciences do not bear witness to God's law.

Yes that is what is what I am saying. God's law is the Law of Moses. I have nowhere denied that God does not speak to our consciences/.

But, as Mysterman has said, GOd never wrote the Law of Moses onto anybody's heart in OT times.

Well, you're wrong then. God's law is written in the conscience of man. God's law is His moral law which are in the 10 commandments. Love the Lord your God...thou shalt not kill...thou shalt not bear false witness, etc. It's the conscience of man that tells him the difference between right and wrong...that is God's law written in the heart of man. It has been there from the beginning. The world does not revolve around Moses. Abraham knew it was wrong to lie before God ever wrote it on the tablets of stone. Cain knew it was wrong to kill before it was ever written on the tablets of stone. So, yes, God's law was written on the heart of man from the beginning. I'm not sure how you can claim otherwise, but it's clear you're incorrect.

John is not speaking of the law of Moses..the law merely pointed out sin. Sin entered the world with Adam. He was the first transgressor of the law. God's law has always existed...the law was written on tablets of stone for Moses, but it existed from the beginning. Sin isn't sin without the law, and the OT saints knew it well before it was ever given to Moses.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This is the eternal moral law of God "manifest in them".

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here we see the law written in their hearts...their conscience bearing witness. These are Gentiles...no law of Moses, but the law, nonetheless.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

 

[glorydaz]

In Romans 2, there is a statement about the “law†being written on the heart of the Gentile:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Although this text is widely seen as suggesting that God’s “law†is written on the hearts of human beings in general, Paul here is instead describing the writing of the “law†on the hearts of believers (and in this context, specifically Gentile believers).

The entire discussion turns on the Greek word that has been translated here in the NASB as “instinctively†in verse 14. I am going to argue that this rendering does not properly express Paul’s intent. I will argue that Paul basis assertion is not this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively do the things of the Law…â€

…but instead this:

“when Gentiles who do not have the Law by birth, do the things of the Law….

The reader should note that while the first rendering indeed suggests that pagan Gentiles have a form of law written on their hearts, the second rendering in no sense preferentially supports such a reading over a reading where it is only believing Gentiles that have the law written on their heart (the position that I hold).

The greek root word at issue is “fuseiâ€, which is often translated as “by nature†(although not in the NASB rendering of 2:14 where it is rendered as “instinctivelyâ€). The western reader should be careful to understand this properly. Paul uses this very same word, in other contexts, to denote what is true of someone by virtue of the circumstances of their birth. One example is Ephesian 2:3:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles.

Perhaps more tellingly, we have this same root “fusei†used just a few verses further on in Romans 2:

27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “physically†and as “instinctively†in verse 14. Note how the word is rendered in the YLT translation of 2:27:

and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.

Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in verse 27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of birth for the Gentile. It seems only reasonable that Paul uses this same greek root in the same “by birth†sense only a few verses back in 2:14.

Thus, it is highly plausible that what Paul is saying in about the law in verse 14 is that the Gentiles do not possess it by the circumstances of their birth, and not that the unregenerate Gentile has an innate, or instinctive sense of the law.

In fact, note how Jeremiah, uses very same “law written on the heart†concept:

But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

Note how the prophet uses “law written on the heart†language to describe something that will happen in the future and will which will be effective only for believers. Paul is deeply knowledgeable of Old Testament concepts and would more likely than not use “law written on the heart†language in the same way it was used in the Old Testament.

Nice try at a cover-up, but it's error. Paul is not speaking of believers in Romans 1. He says quite clearly God is declared to His creatures through the invisible things around him, and the conscience God gives to all men. You're claiming unbelievers do not know it is wrong to kill. That's simply false.
If the only law of God is the one given to Moses...which law is this?

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How did Rachael know it was wrong to lie? How did Pharoah know he'd sinned before the law was given?

And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.

God did not leave man in the dark in regards to sin. We are made in the image of God, and His law is written on our hearts. After eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve knew they were naked. Every man has a conscience with the laws of God manifest IN them. Sin sears the conscience, but man is without excuse. All men...not just believers.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote glorydaz: ". Sin isn't sin without the law, and the OT saints knew it well before it was ever given to Moses. "


Hi

I John 5:17 tells us that -- "all unrighteousness is sin"

And the Apostle Paul said that he did not "know" sin but by the law - Romans 7:7 <-- and Paul was a Jew who knew the law.

But Paul goes on to say in verse 9 - "For I was alive without the law once" -- then he goes on to say -- "but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died". Paul goes on to say in verse 10 - "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death". And in verse 11 - "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" < What is Paul saying here ?

Well, many things to be exact. One - Sin pronounces our death. Two - As a Jew , he was born without the law. Three - That by his own actions he deceived himself to the law which was unto death.

Yet Paul goes on to say in verses 12 - 17 that the law is good and holy, but he is not. He was sold under sin. The sin of Adam, that in Adam all die. Paul knew he was a sinner, because the law told him that he was a sinner. < verses 18 - 20. But even more so now, because the law was in the inward man and the mind < verses 22 and 23.

Paul made it abundantly clear, that when he was born, he was born without the law in his mind. And this is why he was deceived. But when he received the inward man = Christ in him, he no longer was deceived. But openly knew the sin of his body unto death, and even called himself a wretched man in verse 24.

Anyone who does not have the inner man, or the inward man = Christ in them, do not have the law in their minds ! Only born again Christians have the Law of the Spirit of life in them < Romans 8:2

 

[glorydaz]

Quote glorydaz: ". Sin isn't sin without the law, and the OT saints knew it well before it was ever given to Moses. "


Hi

I John 5:17 tells us that -- "all unrighteousness is sin"

And the Apostle Paul said that he did not "know" sin but by the law - Romans 7:7 <-- and Paul was a Jew who knew the law.

But Paul goes on to say in verse 9 - "For I was alive without the law once" -- then he goes on to say -- "but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died". Paul goes on to say in verse 10 - "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death". And in verse 11 - "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me" < What is Paul saying here ?

Well, many things to be exact. One - Sin pronounces our death. Two - As a Jew , he was born without the law. Three - That by his own actions he deceived himself to the law which was unto death.

Yet Paul goes on to say in verses 12 - 17 that the law is good and holy, but he is not. He was sold under sin. The sin of Adam, that in Adam all die. Paul knew he was a sinner, because the law told him that he was a sinner. < verses 18 - 20. But even more so now, because the law was in the inward man and the mind < verses 22 and 23.

Paul made it abundantly clear, that when he was born, he was born without the law in his mind. And this is why he was deceived. But when he received the inward man = Christ in him, he no longer was deceived. But openly knew the sin of his body unto death, and even called himself a wretched man in verse 24.

Anyone who does not have the inner man, or the inward man = Christ in them, do not have the law in their minds ! Only born again Christians have the Law of the Spirit of life in them < Romans 8:2

So you're claiming unbelievers don't have a conscience with God's laws "manifest in them" as Paul tells us in Romans 1 and 2? You're claiming unbelievers just don't know they shouldn't kill people, or that they shouldn't lie, or honor their parents? They just don't have an inkling of what is right and what is wrong?

God's law reveals sin...whether it be His eternal moral law or the Stone Law. I'm surprised that so many people think the only law of God is the law given to Moses. No wonder so many verses are misunderstood.

Abraham didn't have the law, but he was commended by God for obeying His law. If sin came into the world through Adam perhaps you need to look into the tree of the knowledge of good and evil a little closer. ;)

Now...read this scripture very carefully...

The Gentiles WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW....show the work of the LAW...WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

We aren't talking about the Spirit of Life here...we are talking about the "law".
God's law..unwritten and written. God has an eternal moral law that pre-dates Moses.

What God does for the believer is...He changes our heart from stone to flesh. What was written on our conscience is now written on our circumcised heart, which is what Paul is referring to.

 

[Elijah674]

Yes that is what is what I am saying. God's law is the Law of Moses. I have nowhere denied that God does not speak to our consciences/.

But, as Mysterman has said, GOd never wrote the Law of Moses onto anybody's heart in OT times.

Well, you're wrong then. God's law is written in the conscience of man. God's law is His moral law which are in the 10 commandments. Love the Lord your God...thou shalt not kill...thou shalt not bear false witness, etc. It's the conscience of man that tells him the difference between right and wrong...that is God's law written in the heart of man. It has been there from the beginning. The world does not revolve around Moses. Abraham knew it was wrong to lie before God ever wrote it on the tablets of stone. Cain knew it was wrong to kill before it was ever written on the tablets of stone. So, yes, God's law was written on the heart of man from the beginning. I'm not sure how you can claim otherwise, but it's clear you're incorrect.

John is not speaking of the law of Moses..the law merely pointed out sin. Sin entered the world with Adam. He was the first transgressor of the law. God's law has always existed...the law was written on tablets of stone for Moses, but it existed from the beginning. Sin isn't sin without the law, and the OT saints knew it well before it was ever given to Moses.
[quote="1 John 3:4]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. [/quote]
This is the eternal moral law of God "manifest in them".

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here we see the law written in their hearts...their conscience bearing witness. These are Gentiles...no law of Moses, but the law, nonetheless.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

[/quote]

Rom. 2:14-15 tells ETERNITY how this came about. They were not Borned that way, but FOUND CHRIST THROUGH HIS SRCOND BIBLE NATURE! They BECAME BORN AGAIN! Surely some even here are not as important as they think, and perhaps as you rightly suggest? But these Rom. 14 ones WERE FREE MORAL AGENTS to go either way with what God gave them, as we are also!
--Elijah

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote and question from glorydaz: "So you're claiming unbelievers don't have a conscience with God's laws "manifest in them" as Paul tells us in Romans 1 and 2? You're claiming unbelievers just don't know they shouldn't kill people, or that they shouldn't lie, or honor their parents? They just don't have an inkling of what is right and what is wrong? "


Hi glorydaz

Man did not know not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil , unless God told them not too - correct ?

Before Cain murdered Able, God warned Cain that if his countenance fell, that sin lieth at the door. Again, another warning from God. What man knew or didn't know is because of God.

Why do you think God destroyed this earth with the flood ? Because of all the evil, correct ?

God never said that Noah was a righteous man. But, that Noah found grace in God. By faith Noah obeyed God to build the ark, and his faith to obey God was counted unto him as righteousness. And only this "one" person Noah, and no one else. Naoh was not special in that God favoured him over anyone else. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But by faith after God talked to Noah, did Noah obey God. This might look like God is a respector of persons here, but he isn't. God is a respector is circumstances.

The law was given, because of the evil in mankind. God wanted Israel to follow the law of Moses, because the law was righteous. No other nation had the law of Moses, other than Israel. Israel was suppose to be an example unto all other nations of what and whom God was. The God is Isaac, the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, the God of Moses, etc. God even worked through Gideon and the covenant he had with Gideon. All of these men were men of God, who walked with God. The same with David who became King and all the prophets of the OT. God worked through these men. Sometimes for circumstances that were pertinent for that day and time, and at times the prophets which prophesied for the furture, like the coming of the Messiah.

Today, Christians set the standard unto the world. We as Christians have the laws of God on our hearts, and only Christians !

Every human being is given the spirit of man within them. The spirit of man, sets forth within each individual a standard by which man can understand certain things. This is because God, who is spirit , gave the spirit of man into all of mankind, so that man has a standard within their conscience by which to live by. This is not the law of God, but is a conscience state of mind. It gives God the ability to speak or educate the mind of all of mankind by way of their spirit. Without ever taking away their free will.

Having the spirit of man, gives God , who is Spirit, the ability to speak to man, just as he did with Cain in Genesis 4:6 and 7 and verses 9 and 10 - 11 - 12 and 15.

What God reveales to man is totally up to God. And why and where and when he does so. And we know that God is a righteous judge, and will judge according to what man knows and what God has revealed unto him. Some will have the Spirit of truth in them, and others will not. You who do have the Spirit of truth in you will recognize the truth. Those who do not will not. This is why Paul , when he taught, said, that this is for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Unto some it is given and unto others it is not given. And for some God will reveal certain things in his own time frame. For he has a purpose for what he does and when he does it.

Christians, who have Christ in them , the hope of glory, will worship every day alike. For God has brought us into his rest. While others will think they still need to keep the law of Moses and keep holy the Sabbath day. And even though it is not necessary, it is necessary to those who desire to do so. If the church continues to give by example that the sabbath should be kept holy, then the world will think you are keeping the sabbath holy. Only the Jews were told to keep the Sabbath day holy according to the law of Moses. Never , ever did God ask the Gentiles to do as the Jews did. God didn't call Gentiles to put them back under the law of bondage. He called and chose them to live by the law of liberty. And he put his laws in their hearts. He didn't put the law of Moses in their hearts ! He put the Law of life in their hearts - to Love !

 

[Elijah674]

You play hop/scotch with mankind! Moses stuff & the Eternal Covenant of the UNIVERSE are seperate law. When mankind sinned mankind LOST IT!

And man with what inside them you say??? (good?) Hardly. The Word states that the Holy Spirit for 120 year was STRIVING to get [INSIDE] the pre/flood ones. You need to post from a more mature Heb. 6 'meat' on here!
No personal offence! I 'speck' that 'i' was only there one time? (but I doubt it)

--Elijah