Do you agree, or disagree?

[GodsGrace]

Lord save us, what a question.

Which question?

 

[GodsGrace]

ralph knows

Ralph knows everything.

 

[Hopeful]

This is simple.
I'm curious. I want to know how many in this forum agree that the genuine believer who later stops believing is still saved despite them still being in unbelief on the day they died. Of course, there are probably an endless array of reasons why one would vote 'yes' or 'no', so just pick one and if you need to explain your answer, do that in a post.

If they were "genuine" believers, they wouldn't lose their belief.

 

[Corn Pop]

This thread has been resurrected from the stone age. Its a miracle.

 

[GodsGrace]

If they were "genuine" believers, they wouldn't lose their belief.

This is what I hear.
But isn't paul speaking to believers when he states all those IFs?

Sorry, I'm not by my bible right now, but I'm sure you know which verses I mean.

 

[GodsGrace]

If they were "genuine" believers, they wouldn't lose their belief.

PS
Don't expect an answer from Jethro.
He's on some beach somewhere.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

PS
Don't expect an answer from Jethro.
He's on some beach somewhere.

But Javier might be around.

 

[GodsGrace]

But Javier might be around.

Wow.???
Speak of a split personality!
Do you know a secret?
Javier could be a really good replacement for Jethro...

 

[JLB]

This is simple.
I'm curious. I want to know how many in this forum agree that the genuine believer who later stops believing is still saved despite them still being in unbelief on the day they died. Of course, there are probably an endless array of reasons why one would vote 'yes' or 'no', so just pick one and if you need to explain your answer, do that in a post.

The believer who no longer believes is an unbeliever.


I don’t find any scriptures that say unbelievers are saved.


Simple.

 

[JLB]

I find it hard to believe that there are christians that seriously believe you can be snatched from Jesus' hand.

Removed from Christ by God the Father.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:1-2





JLB

 

[Hopeful]

This is what I hear.
But isn't paul speaking to believers when he states all those IFs?

He sure is.
"Do this and live"...or..."do this and suffer the second death."
The choices are rather clear.
The Christian life is full of choices, but with the Holy Ghost residing within us, the answers are never far away.

Sorry, I'm not by my bible right now, but I'm sure you know which verses I mean.

I keep "biblegateway.com" on my book marks, which are visible while using other sites like this one.
That way, the bible is one click away from whom ever I am writing to.

 

[PeterJens]

The believer who no longer believes is an unbeliever.


I don’t find any scriptures that say unbelievers are saved.


Simple.

So much of the meaning of words is in the emotional intent and context.
What helps me is to see what people are saying emotionally and what is being said factually.

Factually someone who denies Christ died and rose again, that sins are forgiven has no path of redemption.
Someone who denies their connection to God and is distraught, might well believe they have lost their faith, but like a child lost and alone, this is about hurt and disappointment.

To those who feel faith is magic, like being alive, no matter our state we are alive, so being brought into spiritual life with God is eternal so can never change, be destroyed or lost. This concept is like the greek view of the gods, who could eternally be tortured but never destroyed, or after rebuke, be brought back to the pantheon of gods.

For me it all hinges on how we are and how we stand before God, ourselves and others. Cleansed purified and made whole with a heart of love, does not deny Jesus or the Father. A heart born into heaven, brings blessing and joy, healing and hope where all has been lost. Blessings in Babylon summarise it well. God did not desire to destroy the world but transform it with love and hope. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples when you have love one for another. Faith is a gift, which takes hold and root because of love. When faith leaves, love has been blocked out.

How many people have you heard angrily denying Jesus and His reality? This is more about people angry about how faith made them feel and what happened, which only makes sense to them by angrily rejecting faith. How can the fruit of a Godly life be faithlessness? Faith is the fruit of the walk of love, and the hand of God transforming us from one state of glory to the next.

God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

He sure is.
"Do this and live"...or..."do this and suffer the second death."
The choices are rather clear.
The Christian life is full of choices, but with the Holy Ghost residing within us, the answers are never far away.

I keep "biblegateway.com" on my book marks, which are visible while using other sites like this one.
That way, the bible is one click away from whom ever I am writing to.

Good advice in your 2nd paragraph...but I hate dealing with that tiny cell phone!

Anyway, yes, my point was that I hear that if someone falls away it means that they were never genuine believers.
What is a genuine believer?

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God...

It seems to me that Paul is stating to be careful not to fall away.
Fall away from what?
The Living God.

And what would make us fall away?
Paul calls them BROTHERS so he's speaking to Christians....
he's telling them to be careful and to avoid an evil and unbelieving heart.

I believe the N.T. teaches that it's possible to be a believer and then to fall away.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Good advice in your 2nd paragraph...but I hate dealing with that tiny cell phone!

Anyway, yes, my point was that I hear that if someone falls away it means that they were never genuine believers.
What is a genuine believer?

Hebrews 3:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God...

It seems to me that Paul is stating to be careful not to fall away.
Fall away from what?
The Living God.

And what would make us fall away?
Paul calls them BROTHERS so he's speaking to Christians....
he's telling them to be careful and to avoid an evil and unbelieving heart.

I believe the N.T. teaches that it's possible to be a believer and then to fall away.

There's believers all over the place that aren't saved.
1 John 2:26;
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Where does the Bible teach something that contradicts this passage?

 

[WIP]

There's believers all over the place that aren't saved.
1 John 2:26;
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Where does the Bible teach something that contradicts this passage?

Interesting passage! I wonder though, is there a difference between belonging to "us" as Paul indicates and belonging to Jesus, albeit, saved?

 

[GodsGrace]

There's believers all over the place that aren't saved.
1 John 2:26;
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Where does the Bible teach something that contradicts this passage?

John meant agnostics,,,not believers.
They had entered the church already and he was very concerned about this.

Check out the early church history.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Interesting passage! I wonder though, is there a difference between belonging to "us" as Paul indicates and belonging to Jesus, albeit, saved?

Your question sounds confusing to me.
John follows in verse 20, "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth."
We hear a lot about the anointing of the Holy Spirit and you either got it or you don't.

 

[daninthelionsden]

So much of the meaning of words is in the emotional intent and context.
What helps me is to see what people are saying emotionally and what is being said factually.

Factually someone who denies Christ died and rose again, that sins are forgiven has no path of redemption.
Someone who denies their connection to God and is distraught, might well believe they have lost their faith, but like a child lost and alone, this is about hurt and disappointment.

To those who feel faith is magic, like being alive, no matter our state we are alive, so being brought into spiritual life with God is eternal so can never change, be destroyed or lost. This concept is like the greek view of the gods, who could eternally be tortured but never destroyed, or after rebuke, be brought back to the pantheon of gods.

For me it all hinges on how we are and how we stand before God, ourselves and others. Cleansed purified and made whole with a heart of love, does not deny Jesus or the Father. A heart born into heaven, brings blessing and joy, healing and hope where all has been lost. Blessings in Babylon summarise it well. God did not desire to destroy the world but transform it with love and hope. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples when you have love one for another. Faith is a gift, which takes hold and root because of love. When faith leaves, love has been blocked out.

How many people have you heard angrily denying Jesus and His reality? This is more about people angry about how faith made them feel and what happened, which only makes sense to them by angrily rejecting faith. How can the fruit of a Godly life be faithlessness? Faith is the fruit of the walk of love, and the hand of God transforming us from one state of glory to the next.

God bless you

Being one who has been very angry with God can attest to what you're saying. I had to get honest with myself and admit that I knew God was there, but I had a very dysfunctional relationship with Him. I was going to post something similar to what you posted. The question doesn't address those mistakenly in anger against God, only those who quit believing.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

John meant agnostics,,,not believers.
They had entered the church already and he was very concerned about this.

Check out the early church history.

If John meant agnostics, he would have said so.
He's not stupid.

 

[daninthelionsden]

There's believers all over the place that aren't saved.
1 John 2:26;
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
Where does the Bible teach something that contradicts this passage?

I think I met all of them before I came here. lol