Do you believe in Baptism ????

[chestertonrules]

[quote="glorydaz]
Nothing done by man will save us...our work is to believe...we must be born again. Animal sacrifice, circumcision, and water baptism were but shadows of what was to come. The work of our salvation was done at the cross. His sacrifice, the circumcision of our heart and the washing of regeneration are accomplished by God when we believe in Jesus and are born again. Water baptism is an outward sign of what has already been accomplished in the believer's heart.[/quote]


We have been saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved.

If we refuse to obey, do we really believe?

Faith alone will not get you to heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

We have been saved, we are being saved, and we hope to be saved.

If we refuse to obey, do we really believe?

Faith alone will not get you to heaven.

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation.
We are saved by grace through faith...if our obedience was required then Jesus need not have died.

We must be born again...the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what makes us of children of God.
After that, the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in our lives.
If we disobey, we will be chastened by God as sons.

Water baptism is simply an outward sign of our faith...not required for salvation.

 

[chestertonrules]

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation.
We are saved by grace through faith...if our obedience was required then Jesus need not have died.

We must be born again...the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what makes us of children of God.
After that, the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in our lives.
If we disobey, we will be chastened by God as sons.

Water baptism is simply an outward sign of our faith...not required for salvation.

If we persistently disobey Jesus will we go to heaven?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi all

I just read through this thread, and I am surpized that not one mentioned being "baptized" into his death. - Romans 6:3

In the unity of the Spirit there is only one baptism. Not two , or three or a combination of any, but just one.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi all

I just read through this thread, and I am surpized that not one mentioned being "baptized" into his death. - Romans 6:3

In the unity of the Spirit there is only one baptism. Not two , or three or a combination of any, but just one.

It would seem to me MM that it has been my past experience on this forum that most are quick to say what Baptism isn't, yet nobody defines what baptism is, how it's accomplished and exactly what it accomplishes.

I do like the discussion of baptism, perhaps I'll have time tomorrow to discuss.

Grace and peace,
Jeff

 

[glorydaz]

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation.
We are saved by grace through faith...if our obedience was required then Jesus need not have died.

We must be born again...the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what makes us of children of God.
After that, the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in our lives.
If we disobey, we will be chastened by God as sons.

Water baptism is simply an outward sign of our faith...not required for salvation.

If we persistently disobey Jesus will we go to heaven?

If we don't walk in obedience to Christ in us, we aren't His.
When we're born again, our heart has been circumcised.
We are a new creature.
New creatures do not persistantly disobey.

 

[chestertonrules]

Water baptism is not necessary for salvation.
We are saved by grace through faith...if our obedience was required then Jesus need not have died.

We must be born again...the baptism of the Holy Spirit is what makes us of children of God.
After that, the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest in our lives.
If we disobey, we will be chastened by God as sons.

Water baptism is simply an outward sign of our faith...not required for salvation.

If we persistently disobey Jesus will we go to heaven?

If we don't walk in obedience to Christ in us, we aren't His.
When we're born again, our heart has been circumcised.
We are a new creature.
New creatures do not persistantly disobey.

Obedience is an act of will.

God's grace will help you follow his will, but it will not force you to follow, which is why we must strive for holiness.

 

[glorydaz]

Obedience is an act of will.

God's grace will help you follow his will, but it will not force you to follow, which is why we must strive for holiness.

Yes, but sometimes the harder we try to be holy, the less holy we are. There is much to be said for the rest we have when we simply obey. He says jump...I say how high. :biglaugh

It's His holiness that will shine through..."He must increase but I must decrease."

 

[stovebolts]

Water baptism is simply an outward sign of our faith...not required for salvation.

Do you know how many times I've heard that? :gah
I believe that it is so much more than simply an outward sign of our faith. Mysteryman earlier eluded to Romans 6:3, but I would like to expand that to include verses 3 through verse 11 and I would ask that you read those verses before reading further. Then, read what I have to say below, and then go back and read Romans 6 again.

Moving forward,
When one comes to the baptismal pool as a response to the gospel, and I think that this is key, then what you read in Romans 6 becomes a beautiful picture of God's saving grace uniting with our faith in the baptismal pool.

The way I see scripture, we are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and Romans 6 in regard to baptism is a picture of somebody who comes to the baptismal pool in faith, and by Grace, God unites with them as they are united with Christ by being buried with Christ, and brought out of the waters a new creation in the resurrected Christ. This picture, though not inclusive, is normative in scripture how one becomes part of the visible Body of Christ. I know this wasn't very well worded... but I've ran out of time...

 

[chestertonrules]

It's His holiness that will shine through..."He must increase but I must decrease."

I agree, but this doesn't happen without obedience, which is an act of will.

God has given us some very specific instructions and warnings, and not for no reason.

We must press on for the prize and strive for holiness.

 

[glorydaz]

It's His holiness that will shine through..."He must increase but I must decrease."

I agree, but this doesn't happen without obedience, which is an act of will.

God has given us some very specific instructions and warnings, and not for no reason.

We must press on for the prize and strive for holiness.

Rest in Him...his burden is light. :amen

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[chestertonrules]

Rest in Him...his burden is light. :amen

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

His burden is light, but it must be carried.

You must pick up your cross and follow if you want to go to heaven.

Matt 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[glorydaz]

Rest in Him...his burden is light. :amen

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

His burden is light, but it must be carried.

You must pick up your cross and follow if you want to go to heaven.

Matt 7:21
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I don't find that difficult.....do you?

To obey is better than sacrifice...

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

I've learned it's better to obey than be chastened...

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ba*tards, and not sons.

 

[AVBunyan]

Water Baptism

If you want to pick one confusing doctrine today it is water baptism and yet it should be one of the simplest of doctrines. And yet more time has been spend on this subject than there ever should have been (just look at all the posts!!!). There are 2 schools of thought:

1. It is essential to salvation – don't want to argue this – it is not…period! Seen all the verses, have had then quoted to me out of context for so long I just want to scream!
2. It is not essential to ones salvation but we are to do it because:

1. It is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection – sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase. You say, “It is an outward sign of an inward reality.†Really? Where did you get that? Chapter and verse? Sounds good but you can't make a doctrine out of a catchy phrase.
2. It is the first step of obedience - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
3. It proves or demonstrates one's salvation - sounds good but there is no scripture to support this fine sounding phrase.
4. Many saints in the Bible baptized so we should – sounds good but many saints did things in the Bible that we don't do anymore. We don't sacrifice lambs, we don't raise people from the dead, we don't take vows, we don't abstain from pork, etc. Yes, things change and I'm glad they do!!!
5. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded it in Matt. 28:19,20 – yes he did but also told you to observe all things whatsoever He had commanded and one of the things he commanded was to adhere to what the Pharisees taught and they taught the law - Matt. 23:3 – “All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe.†They taught the law and I know you believe you are not to adhere to the Old Testament law (well some of you do). (Similar to “d.)

First summary – all that we have been taught and practice concerning baptism has been based upon tradition and making doctrines out of poor applications. Because of these errors we have people going to hell on Acts 2:38, etc. and others trying to obey the “first step of obedience†and if they don't they are made to fill like second class citizens by Baptist Churches.

What I am going to present I already know most of you will not believe for a couple of reasons:

1. 1. You want to insist on going to hell with your water baptism and nothing is going to change that!
2. 2. You just cannot give up your tradition that has been passed down for centuries. You have made a doctrine out of a tradition.

Now this is what I believe baptism was for in the Bible. I will only discuss the word baptism as it relates to water for just because you see the word baptize it doesn't mean it is associated with water all the time. Now the Church of Christ can't see that for all they see is water, water and more water every time the word shows up in any form. For example - look at I Cor. 10:2 and Col. 2:12 and try to find water baptism there.

The first time water baptism shows up is with John the Baptist. Now why did John baptize? Let's let him tell us.

John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.

Look at “therefore†– why is the “therefore†there? The issue was manifesting Christ to Israel. Christ was being manifesting to Israel for the first time. John the Baptist said (paraphrasing), “Here is your Messiah! Do you believe this†Ok, then get baptized.“ Why get baptized? To show that you believe Christ was Israel's long awaited for Messiah. And along with that they were to show their repentance in regards to their rejection of God the Father in the Old Testament. Manifestation and repentance - It is that simple. And yet this simple doctrine meant for God's dealing with Israel has turned into a monster.

Do you know why they continued to baptize during Acts? Because the Jews rejected Christ in the gospels and were getting a second chance in Acts. The Gentiles were in on it because they were getting in on Israel's blessings at that time. Once Israel finally rejected the message in Acts 28 then there was no need to call everyone's attention to Jesus being the Messiah for that plan was done away with and Paul was called out by God to reveal the body of Christ.

The issue of showing Christ being the Messiah is a non issue today for we have advanced revelation on the matter due to the New Testament being finally written down – plus God is not dealing with Israel right now (I know, a broken record) – So………..baptism is a non issue today. There is only one baptism and that is the one baptism of Ephesians 4 and that has nothing to do with water!

Again, if you start with Paul you will get it – you can't start with John the Baptist and carry a practice meant for Israel all the way through the church age! You see how simple the scriptures are? You know, Christianity is full of a lot of “junk†today that has nothing to do with Bible Christianity. We are not Rome – we don't need all of those outward ceremonies.

Conclusion – If you want to baptize then fine – I don't panic over people making baptism a picture of salvation, etc. You make it essential to salvation and we will go to war over that. But to use it as a picture then I'm not going to make an issue out of it – that is between your church and God – I believe in local self-governing churches.

Wouldn't it be so much easier to stick with Ephesians 4? Look at what a stumbling block this doctrine has caused. Look at how much money has been spent on baptismal fountains!!! Could you imagine a Baptist church not being able to count their “baptism†to be able to send them to the Sword of the Lord! Just kidding. I am a Baptist so I can pick on my own thank you.

 

[Mysteryman]

I was baptized into Christ's death - Romans 6:4

Bless

 

[Mysteryman]

The Apostle Paul was never water baptized ! !

 

[stovebolts]

The way I understand this, being Justified by faith (Romans 3:21-4:25) basically means that there are no barriers between different ethnic groups let alone an elevation of one group over another. Justification is God’s judgment and declaration that one is in the right before Him. This judgment will be made on the last day (Judgment day), but is currently brought forward into the present through the blood of Christ. Simply put, by faith in Christ through His blood, God declares us in the right.

Often, Justification and Salvation are used interchangeably and it really can cause all sorts of confusion. Salvation through faith is the means in which God restores us from our fallen state. We are declared righteous by faith, but we are saved through faith.
For example, it is by faith that one comes to the baptismal waters, but it is through faith that Christ unites with the believer and transformation occurs. In other words, faith is the instrument that God uses to pour out his grace.
Likewise, it is by faith that one is obedient to lets say… the offense of theft, but it is grace through faith which transforms one from a thief, to an honest man as we conform to the image of Christ.

The verdict is clear. I have been Justified through Christ and I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. When one comes to the baptismal waters through faith, one is being saved through means of transformation.

P.S. AV. Christ is greek for the hebrew word Messiah. ;)

 

[Mysteryman]

The way I understand this, being Justified by faith (Romans 3:21-4:25) basically means that there are no barriers between different ethnic groups let alone an elevation of one group over another. Justification is God’s judgment and declaration that one is in the right before Him. This judgment will be made on the last day (Judgment day), but is currently brought forward into the present through the blood of Christ. Simply put, by faith in Christ through His blood, God declares us in the right.

Often, Justification and Salvation are used interchangeably and it really can cause all sorts of confusion. Salvation through faith is the means in which God restores us from our fallen state. We are declared righteous by faith, but we are saved through faith.
For example, it is by faith that one comes to the baptismal waters, but it is through faith that Christ unites with the believer and transformation occurs. In other words, faith is the instrument that God uses to pour out his grace.
Likewise, it is by faith that one is obedient to lets say… the offense of theft, but it is grace through faith which transforms one from a thief, to an honest man as we conform to the image of Christ.

The verdict is clear. I have been Justified through Christ and I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. When one comes to the baptismal waters through faith, one is being saved through means of transformation.

P.S. AV. Christ is greek for the hebrew word Messiah. ;)

Hi

The greek word is Messias for the hebrew word Messiah.

The greek word of "anointed" is "chrio"

Christ is the greek word - "christos"

Two totally different words.

And , the apostle Paul was never water baptized. And neither did he teach water baptizing to the church. The baptism he taught the church was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus filfilled the law of water cleansing by being water baptized by John the baptist. To fulfill all righteousness - Matt. 3:15

 

[Sinthesis]

P.S. AV. Christ is greek for the hebrew word Messiah. ;)

Hi

The greek word is Messias for the hebrew word Messiah.

The greek word of "anointed" is "chrio"

Christ is the greek word - "christos"

Two totally different words.

StoveBolts is correct.

Strong's H4899 - mashiyach - ????????
1) anointed, anointed one
a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
b) of the king of Israel
c) of the high priest of Israel
d) of Cyrus
e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

Strong's G5547 - Christos - ???????
Christ = "anointed"
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed

Strong's G3323 - Messias - ???????
Messias = "anointed"
1) the Greek form of Messiah
2) a name of Christ

 

[veteran]

Our Lord Jesus set the example of being baptized by water for us. He commanded us to do it. He also has the power to save a soul without water baptism, as per what He said to the malefactor crucified with Him that believed on Him. So we have no excuse if we are able to get baptized, and we have no right to say others that died in Him before they could get baptized are not saved.