Do you believe in the concept of a 'Just War'.

[Hezekiah]

I thought I would take an informal poll to see where people are with the concept of a 'Just War' within a Christian context. I've studied the topic recently and have found quite a bit of variance on the topic within Christianity.

Thanks for voting.

 

[Paidion]

How does a Christian respond to your poll if he is not Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or Anabaptist, but has a belief or a non-belief in a "just war"?

 

[Hezekiah]

The purpose of the poll is to get a feel for the Christian view of a warfare. I am aware that some other religions and/or philisophical systems are opposed to it, accept it, or ignore it all together.

Having said that, if you have a suggestion for another Christian category beyond the three big branches, I can likely edit the list. Out of curiousity, why do you ask?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

In case anyone is interested, our teaching on war is actually found in Section Two "The Ten Commandments", of the Catechism Of The Catholic Church, under the commandement "Thou Shalt Not Kill":
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

Avoiding war

2307 The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.

2308 All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.

However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."

2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."

 

[Catholic Crusader]

How does a Christian respond to your poll if he is not Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or Anabaptist, but has a belief or a non-belief in a "just war"?

Well, I nkow you're not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox: You're a protestant. I know there is a change in lexicon going on in modern times, and some people are just trying to say they are just "Christian". But in fact, if you're a Christian, you're either Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox (including all the Eastern Churches). Thats just the way it is.

Sorry to stray off topic.

 

[Hezekiah]

Catholic Crusader, thank you for your contribution. I actually still have a Catechism in my library. The relevant portion is a good addition to the thread.

On a tangent, IIRC, there are movements within Catholicism that are pacifistic in nature. I know there is at least individuals (lay and clergy) that advocate such a position. What is the Papacy's response or view of such beliefs? I am just curious.

Thanks again.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Catholic Crusader, thank you for your contribution. I actually still have a Catechism in my library. The relevant portion is a good addition to the thread. On a tangent, IIRC, there are movements within Catholicism that are pacifistic in nature. I know there is at least individuals (lay and clergy) that advocate such a position. What is the Papacy's response or view of such beliefs? I am just curious.

Thanks again.

Well in section 2311 of my above post, it says, "Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.". So, I infer from that that pacifism is acceptable if it is a matter of conscience. That is the Church's position: No individual pope has spoken Ex`Cathedra on the subject, but from their personal remarks, the last two popes seem quite adverse to war, in my opinion. Their personal backgrounds probably have much to do with that, having seen the horrors of WWII

 

[Paidion]

Well, I nkow you're not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox: You're a protestant. I know there is a change in lexicon going on in modern times, and some people are just trying to say they are just "Christian". But in fact, if you're a Christian, you're either Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox (including all the Eastern Churches). Thats just the way it is.

False. I am not a Protestant. I have never protested against the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Those who have been added to the one-and-only true universal organic CHURCH meet together in the name of Christ alone. God has added them to the CHURCH.

And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved. Acts 2:47 NKJV

People cannot join an expression of the true CHURCH. That which people join is a club or an organization. The CHURCH does not meet in the name of Luther or Calvin or Augustine, or not even in the name of Paul or Peter for that matter. It is not Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox. It is the CHURCH.

I am definitely not Protestant. Indeed, more of my theology is closer to Catholicism than it is to Protestantism. For example, the Biblical concept of enabling grace (Titus 2). Protestantism seems to limit grace to "the unmerited favour of God".

 

[lovely]

Maybe a "Truly Non-Denomination or Sect" option would be in order.

I would have to choose, I don't know. I do not believe that God is a pacifist...He has led wars, and wars against evil now. I suppose wars against evil are good, but for the believer today is that a physical war?

The Lord bless you.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Maybe a "Truly Non-Denomination or Sect" option would be in order.

Non sequitor. If you attend any church, even a stand-alone church, they are in effect a sect/denomination by reason of whatever their beliefs are

False. I am not a Protestant......

Well I'm not trying to start a quarrel, but you are a protestant, whether you wish to recognize it or not. That is like saying, "I'm not a Californian or a Texan, I'm just an American". Sorry, but you are a resident of whatever state or territory you reside in, whether you wish to recognize it or not.

 

[lovely]

CC,

Believers who are against being yoked to any man-made denomination (following man, and joining a church), are simply following Christ and joining to Him alone. Different denominations continually branch off because of disagreements, and reactions, to doctrines, and all (or at least most) have branched off of the Catholic Church, but if you are not joined to them, nor have branched off from them, then you are not a protestant. Their line would not be drawn straight to Jesus. That's the idea anyway.

The Lord bless you.

 

[lovely]

I was thinking that the Orthodox church may drawn those lines differently, but I think the protestant church draws theirs without some. I do not think they would include some sects, like the Quakers, Plymouth Brethren, or the Church of Christ as protestants. I will have to look it up now. :-?

 

[Hezekiah]

I am hoping we don't get bogged down in denominationalist discussions, but rather stay focused on the question at hand.

I'm well aware of the variation within Protestantism and am also know that many Christians do not like the label. Furthermore, I understand that some proto-Protestant and Radical Reformation denominations object to being grouped with Protestantism. Having said all that, I was limited to 10 options and I couldn't possibly add every variation within Protestantism, nor Catholicism or Orthodoxy for that matter.

So, recognizing the limitations imposed, I will have to leave it at that for the moment. Thanks all.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

CC, Believers who are against being yoked to any man-made denomination (following man, and joining a church), are simply following Christ and joining to Him alone......

Believe me, I understand your point of view. I've heard it many times before. But what such people fail to realize or admit is that, even if a person just sticks to his Bible and nothing else, he/she is following their opinion of what the Bible teaches, and are therefore following man-made beliefs - THEIR OWN. See what I mean?

Anyway, my aplogies to Hezekiah for veering off the topic he started.

To sum up my first post in my own words: People have the right to defend themselves. Now, how one sees "defense" may vary. If oil is the lifeblood of our county, and someone threatens the flow of that lifeblood, are we "defending" ourselves by sailing to the Gulf and fighting for it? You must ask your own conscience that question. Me? I believe that would legitimatrely be called "defense".

 

[Hezekiah]

I do not believe that God is a pacifist...He has led wars, and wars against evil now.

So you believe God is currently the leader of particular wars? Please elaborate, if you would.

 

[samuel]

There is no such thing as a Just War. No war has ever been fought by men, except it has undertones of Greed, Lust, or want of Power. If you can find any justice in these motives, I defer to you.

 

[KenEOTE]

Yes I do believe in just wars.

 

[Rick W]

If one believes in freedom and the rights thereof then there will be conflict. There is a price to be exacted in the pursuit of freedom. No way can there be freedom from oppression without fighting for it.

 

[lovely]

Hi Hezekiah,

Sorry for the thread derail...CC, I understand your postion.

No, I do not believe that God is currently leading physical earthly wars, though I imagine He uses them to achieve His will. I believe He did, in the O.T. with the Israelites, though.
God wars against evil powers now, but I do not see this as being with flesh and blood.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Hezekiah]

There is no such thing as a Just War. No war has ever been fought by men, except it has undertones of Greed, Lust, or want of Power. If you can find any justice in these motives, I defer to you.

Thank you for your contribution. I don't believe there is any doubt that wars of aggression or conquest are evil. Let me ask you this, does your statement above also include defensive measures taken by a nation invaded by a hostile external force?