Do you believe in the concept of a 'Just War'.

[knerd]

America is not a Christian nation because no nation-state can be Christian. But it is certainly possible to designate territory as “Christianâ€Â--or any other religion--by simply counting what its people name themselves.

But that is not how I myself take the title “Christian.†I derive my own understanding from two magnificent parabolic scenes during the execution of Jesus.

In John 18:36 Jesus tells Pilate that the Kingdom of God is “not of this world†because, if it were, his companions would have fought to save him from execution. The Empire of Rome was based on force and violence as are all the kingdoms of earth. The Kingdom of God is equally in this world but not of it because it refuses to participate in that violent foundation--even for minimal defensive purposes.

In Mark 15:7 Pilate imprisoned the violent revolutionary Barabbas along with his fellow-rebels but he held Jesus without rounding up his companions. Pilate understood precisely the difference between violent resistance from Barabbas and non-violent resistance from Jesus.

Jesus could make that claim about the Kingdom of God over against the Empire of Rome and die in non-violent resistance for the integrity of his life lived in that same mode. An individual group, or even community can live and die in that same way as martyrs to non-violence. And other Jews did so in that terrible first century both before and after Jesus--at the time of Rome’s census in 6 AD, Pilate’s arrival in 26 AD, and Caligula’s statue in 41 AD.

But no modern nation-state can accept its death through non-violent martyrdom. Therefore, for me, neither America nor any other nation-state can be “Christian†in the sense of exclusively non-violent resistance to the normalcy of human greed, injustice, and violence.

To the “politically conservative Christians†pondering this thread I ask where they stand on personal and individual, national and international violence.

Are they with Jesus or with Pilate?

Note that I do not ask if they are pacifists like Jesus--because I too am unable to live to that standard. I merely ask whether they are doing everything possible to lower the upward-spiraling levels of violence that endanger the earth itself? Or are they increasing it by giving violence the validation of a “Christian†blessing?

I ask the same of my country. I accept that it cannot be “Christian†but expect it to be, at the least, not anti-Christian.

http://frimmin.com/faith/jesusnonviolence.php

 

[lovely]

I was one of the 2 that chose 'I don't know' on here, and I have some questions...

1.) knerd, why do you call Jesus a pacifist, when God called for war, and even slaughtering of His own innocents? And, He also plans to kill many at the end, who remain His enemies?

Exodus 15
[b]3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.[/b]

Revelation 17
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

I believe that God has called us to peace, both inward and outward, but I do not believe Him to be a pacifist, just as I don't believe Him to be any of these worldly titles. I am not sure why you say that, unless you mean He has called us to be pacifists.

2.) God has told us to not be deceivers, to not lie, but speak the truth, but don't you think in situations of mercy (Hosea 6:6) He would have us lie. You know, if you are in WWII, and hiding Jews, are you honest with the Nazi's when they knock? It seems like killing in defense is similar in principal. If someone breaks into your home, and attempts to kill your family, you shoot them with your 'hunting' rifle and they are stopped and killed in the process, is this against God's law? Would God not view this as mercy? Aren't you guilty of murder if you have the power to stop a malicious and violent crime, a slaughtering of your wife and children, and you do nothing? Several lives murdered, while you spare the one? And, are you not keeping this man from murdering as well?

3.) If California were invaded by another Nation, and they were powerless to defend themselves, and their families, would it be asking our sons to murder if we sent them to California to aid them in defending their borders? Or, would it be better if we watched the enemy slaughter a population of people, some of who may be in our own families, and keep moving east to murder even more?
I guess this is similar to question 2, but on a national scale. Does God see defense the same as murder?

The Lord bless you.

 

[knerd]

I was one of the 2 that chose 'I don't know' on here, and I have some questions...

1.) knerd, why do you call Jesus a pacifist, when God called for war, and even slaughtering of His own innocents? And, He also plans to kill many at the end, who remain His enemies?

Exodus 15
[b]3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.[/b]

Revelation 17
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

I believe that God has called us to peace, both inward and outward, but I do not believe Him to be a pacifist, just as I don't believe Him to be any of these worldly titles. I am not sure why you say that, unless you mean He has called us to be pacifists.

2.) God has told us to not be deceivers, to not lie, but speak the truth, but don't you think in situations of mercy (Hosea 6:6) He would have us lie. You know, if you are in WWII, and hiding Jews, are you honest with the Nazi's when they knock? It seems like killing in defense is similar in principal. If someone breaks into your home, and attempts to kill your family, you shoot them with your 'hunting' rifle and they are stopped and killed in the process, is this against God's law? Would God not view this as mercy? Aren't you guilty of murder if you have the power to stop a malicious and violent crime, a slaughtering of your wife and children, and you do nothing? Several lives murdered, while you spare the one? And, are you not keeping this man from murdering as well?

3.) If California were invaded by another Nation, and they were powerless to defend themselves, and their families, would it be asking our sons to murder if we sent them to California to aid them in defending their borders? Or, would it be better if we watched the enemy slaughter a population of people, some of who may be in our own families, and keep moving east to murder even more?
I guess this is similar to question 2, but on a national scale. Does God see defense the same as murder?

The Lord bless you.

I don't think there is any question that the saying in Matthew to "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" is central to Jesus' idea of the Kingdom of God. I believe Jesus overturned the table of violence in a way no one else has, before or since.

I believe that one of the reasons Jesus was called "the Son of God" and "the Prince of Peace" was because his followers saw a divine being that had no use for "redemptive" violence. The story that violence saves, that war brings peace, that might makes right is a tragic fable that has been
repeated so often that it becomes accepted as reality. People believe it, even as it destroys their lives.

Jesus saves.

 

[OfficerCarson]

Isaiah 63:1-4 (New Living Translation)

Isaiah 63
Judgment against the Lord’s Enemies
1 Who is this who comes from Edom,
from the city of Bozrah,
with his clothing stained red?
Who is this in royal robes,
marching in his great strength?
“It is I, the Lord, announcing your salvation!
It is I, the Lord, who has the power to save!â€Â

2 Why are your clothes so red,
as if you have been treading out grapes?

3 “I have been treading the winepress alone;
no one was there to help me.
In my anger I have trampled my enemies
as if they were grapes.
In my fury I have trampled my foes.
Their blood has stained my clothes.
4 For the time has come for me to avenge my people,
to ransom them from their oppressors.


God is a God of adventure and war
there is no passive God
he created us in his image, men are not suppose to be bound to cubicles, in most peoples childhoods they played army, or some other fake war game
if they are attacking God does not say "let them kill you for it is the right thing to do" he tells us to pick up our shields and defend or lands.

1 Corinthians 3:17 (New International Version)
17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

God does not sound like he will give that person a slap on the wrist and tell him no'no

It also states that we are created in the image of god

Genesis 1:27 (New International Version)

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

God can be looked on as lamb but in my view he is like Aslan from narnia, he is gentle and cares for those who are his friends and allies, but when the eniemies surround his camp he becomes p.o.ed and kicks arse. :smt066 :smt066 :smt066 :smt066

 

[knerd]

The word "pacifist" is freighted with political connotations, so when talking about Jesus I use the term "nonviolent" instead. The character of the God that Jesus revealed was one of forgiveness, justice, mercy and nonviolence. lovely, you raise some great perrenial questions about nonviolence and self-defense that have come up again and again throughout history. And as to what God sees or doesn't see, I am at a humble loss here. I don't know.

OfficerCarson, Jesus announced the in-breaking of the Kingdom of God, on earth as it is in heaven. He healed by showing the destitute and the dispossessed how to create social relationships that revealed a covenental God of justice and righteousness. That led him to oppose Rome and Herodian authority nonviolently and thus triggered the state's violence against him--with which such subversive activity is almost always repaid with.

The God of the Bible who believes that might makes right, war brings peace and revenge is sweet has His place, but that place is nowhere in the Sermon on the Mount (or--in Luke--the "Sermon on the Plain").

If you lead a life for God's justice you will probably be killed or perhaps marginalized at the very least. If you look back at the tradition of the Christians in the first century, no one is having a conversation like "If they persecute us, it is alright to kill a few defensively." For the early Christians, you cannot even kill in self-defense. Later, of course, you can find discussions as to whether a Christian can be a soldier, and so forth. But the idea of loving one's enemy is non-negotiable in the early stages of the faith.

Blood up to the height of the horses' bridles for 200 miles is not justice and is not the God of Jesus. The trouble with the Killer God is it justifies us to do the same. The birth of the Prince of Peace gives humankind a new way of dealing with violence quite apart from the ancient tribal secular reactions of revenge and cruelty.

 

[lovely]

lovely, you raise some great perrenial questions about nonviolence and self-defense that have come up again and again throughout history. And as to what God sees or doesn't see, I am at a humble loss here. I don't know.

Yeah, that's where I'm at too. It's nice to know that I'm not the only one. The Lord bless you.

 

[Paidion]

If it is for an unjust war then he cannot be held accountable but his authorities can and will be judged.

That's exactly what many German army leaders in World War II thought. "We were only following orders." But they were wrong. They were prosecuted, found guilty, and put to death.

 

[KingCrimson]

If you lead a life for God's justice you will probably be killed or perhaps marginalized at the very least. If you look back at the tradition of the Christians in the first century, no one is having a conversation like "If they persecute us, it is alright to kill a few defensively." For the early Christians, you cannot even kill in self-defense. Later, of course, you can find discussions as to whether a Christian can be a soldier, and so forth. But the idea of loving one's enemy is non-negotiable in the early stages of the faith.

Really? How do you know this? Did they tell you so? ;)

I think the key difference lies in the reason behind the non-violence. If we are persecuted, it is for God's glory, and so yes, one could certainly argue that a non-violent reaction would be the answer. This is certainly what Jesus advocated. But what about when your country is being invaded? Not when it already has been invaded, as in the case of the Israelites, but if someone's got an army lined up on your border and has started rolling through. I suppose the question is: If someone is going to kill another, and you have the opportunity to directly stop the person from doing this, even if it is by killing him, but do not take it, does this also implicate you in the killing? If your enemy is about to shoot your friend, what do you do? We're supposed to love our neighbour - but guess what, they're both our neighbours. So shooting your enemy would be wrong, and allowing your enemy to shoot your friend would be wrong. Classic catch-22. It's like the example of World War 2: You're hiding Jews in your house. Do you lie, or do you allow the Jews to be killed? No matter where you turn, you're breaking God's law, right?

But I think God has a bit of the pragmatist in Him (Or rather, has a bit of Himself in the pragmatist ;)), and that maybe situational ethics aren't always, in every circumstance, the demon some of us make them out to be. The world is not black and white. God knows this. After all, He created it. I'd like to think He understands when we have to choose the lesser of two evils. If we kill one man to save another, are we sinning? Indubitably. But that is why Christ died for us - because God has called us to an impossible standard, and we need Jesus to be saved. If you lie to save the lives of the Jews, I can't see God saying "Well, there goes twenty years of sanctification down the drain." I honestly don't think He'd be ashamed of you to do that. Maybe this whole non-violence thing falls under the "Idol Meat" category, where each Christian ought to make up his mind as to what he feels is right and do it to honour God. Or maybe not. Who knows?

Also, you have stated several times in this thread something along the lines of how the victims of the Holocaust would have been better off had the Nazis been met with non-violent resistance, yet unless I skipped over it somehow, you still have yet to support this. As much as I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, I think that such a proposal falls under the category of "Proof or it never happened."

 

[knerd]

Jesus and his ministry was nonviolent, but as time went on, the church came more and more to resemble the Rome on whose behalf it was commissioned to prophesy. That Christianity was converted by Rome is the historical reality. The church eventually fell prey to the allure of political power, and with its post-Constantinian descent into Romanism, the church as a whole would lose its distinctive prophetic voice. I don't think It has been regained since then.

Bulgaria's Orthodox Bishop Kiril told the Nazis that if they tried sending Bulgarian Jews to concentration camps, he would lead a program of civil disobediance, lying down on the tracks in front of the trains. Thousands of Bulgarian Jews and non-Jews resisted all collaboration with Nazi decrees. Letters and telegrams were sent as protests, clergy hid Jews, Christian churches accepted large numbers of Jewish "converts" to evade arrest and would not consider the conversions binding.

Because of these and other non-military measures, all of Bulgaria's Jewish citizens were saved from the death camps.

Finland saved all but six of its Jewish citizens through non-military means. Of the 7,000 Jews in Denmark, 6,500 escaped to Sweden aided by the whole population and even from tips within the German occupation forces. And almost all the rest were safely hidden for the balance of the war.

In Italy, a large percentage of Jews suvived because officials and citizens sabotaged efforts to surrender them over to the Germans.

There is a deluge of examples and information throughout history. Instead of relying on "authority" to teach us that violence leads to peace or that might makes right, we need to be crtical thinkers and scholars of the history of our own Christian tradition. Don't take my word for it. "Google" up a storm. Get facts. Question authority. And when authority answers, listen with wisdom and without judgement.

God's truth is out there.