Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Stan53]

In Acts 2 Peter fulfilled these words of Jesus; Peter was in Jerusalem and preached repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.
This is where baptism of the great commission in the name of Christ began so Jn 3:26 and Jn 4:1,2 is not this baptism.

Never said it was...please look at what comments I responded to. I was talking about water baptism.

Jn 14:26 Jesus was only promising the apostles the Comforter that would teach them all things and bring all things to their remembrance.

Like I said.

Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 show that baptism is necessary to be saved. God's gift comes attached with the conditions of belief, repentance, confession and baptism. Baptism with the Holy Ghost was promised to the apostles, Acts 1:1-5, it is not promised to anyone today. The one baptism, Eph 4:5, is water baptism in the name of the Lord of the great commission.

Apparently it was necessary for Apollos to be saved, Acts 18:25.
Let's NOT start getting water baptism confused with Baptism/Infilling of the Holy Spirit. Actually Paul doesn't say in Eph 4:5 what baptism he is referring, but most likely the baptism of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist said this is John 1:33, Jesus said it in Acts 1:5, Peter said it in Acts 2:38, Acts 8:15-17, Acts 10:47 but in reverse, Acts 11:16-17 where Peter confirms the baptism of the Holy Spirit was for EVERYBODY.

 

[Webb]

Stan53 in post 361 thinks Peter was refering to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and writes: "---PETER SAID IT IN ACTS 2:38--".

No, Peter didn't refer to Holy Spirit baptism in Acts 2:38. Spirit baptism is a promise and the baptism there was a command. Upon obeying the requirement of belief in vs.36 Peter commands the multitude to repent and be baptized and then they would receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, vs.38 then its stated in vs.39, (which Jethro doesn't seem to grasp) that this is for all who are afar off,even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

 

[Stan53]

Stan53 in post 361 thinks Peter was refering to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and writes: "---PETER SAID IT IN ACTS 2:38--".

No, Peter didn't refer to Holy Spirit baptism in Acts 2:38. Spirit baptism is a promise and the baptism there was a command. Upon obeying the requirement of belief in vs.36 Peter commands the multitude to repent and be baptized and then they would receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, vs.38 then its stated in vs.39, (which Jethro doesn't seem to grasp) that this is for all who are afar off,even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

So what is Peter referring to here in Acts 2:38?
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Stan53 in post 361 thinks Peter was refering to the baptism of the Holy Spirit and writes: "---PETER SAID IT IN ACTS 2:38--".

No, Peter didn't refer to Holy Spirit baptism in Acts 2:38. Spirit baptism is a promise and the baptism there was a command. Upon obeying the requirement of belief in vs.36 Peter commands the multitude to repent and be baptized and then they would receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit, vs.38 then its stated in vs.39, (which Jethro doesn't seem to grasp) that this is for all who are afar off,even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:4-5 NASB)


2 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. (Acts 2:2-4 NASB)


"...this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 ‘ And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;

18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.

19 ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.

20 ‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the
Lord will be saved.’

(Acts 2:16-21 NASB)


33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see (fire) and hear (tongues). (Acts 2:33 NASB parenthesis mine)


"38 Peter said to them, “ Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise (of the Holy Spirit) is for you and your children and for all who are far off (because that's what the prophecy says he just quoted), as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts 2:38-39 NASB parenthesis mine)


Peter says those who repent and are baptized for the forgiveness of sins will receive the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Spirit in keeping with Joel's prophecy that he and the others have already had fulfilled for them in the giving of the Holy Spirit. What the believers received prior to the 3000 is the same prophecy and promise of the Holy Spirit that the 3000 is being given a chance to have, so the question for you is...

"Why are you exempt from having the exact same experience in the receiving of the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Spirit according to the prophecy of Joel but I'm not in regard to how Cornelius and his family received the gift and promise of the Holy Spirit?"

 

[Eventide]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

The water seems to be the agency of salvation for Noah and family.

Then one surely has to wonder why God waited patiently while Noah built an Ark.. if all that was necessary was water.. and then wonder why God destroyed everything by the flood waters except those who entered into the Ark by faith..?

 

[Eventide]

Preaching to Prisoners.. ?

We're told that Christ was put to death in the FLESH but made alive by the SPIRIT and by that Spirit went and preached to those in prison.. it makes me think of those who perished in the floodwaters.. I'm not sure though.. that's some deep stuff (pun intended)..

 

[Webb]

Stan53--You quoted Acts 2:38. Thank you. It needs no elaborate interpretation. It says what it means and means what it says.

 

[Eventide]

IMO it's VITALLY important to understand that Acts 2:38 in completely within the context of Israel and Israelites and should not be 'canned' to extend to the predominantly Gentile church... regardless of the fact that this is certainly the beginning of the church of God at Pentecost.

The gospel is to the JEW first, and then to the Gentiles.. and this is precisely what we see recorded for us in the Acts.. it was after Israel's consistent rejection of the gospel that the LORD raised up Paul to take the gospel to the Gentiles.. and the scriptures show that the gift of the Spirit was given BEFORE being baptized in water.. and it's important obviously to note that this case speaks of a Gentile..

For that reason (and many others) I could not be dogmatic about Acts 2:38 being the model for receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Paul tells the Christian church that we were all baptized into that one body (Christ) by the SAME SPIRIT... that's how we're placed into the body of Christ.. by receiving His Spirit which is literally Christ in you..

 

[Webb]

In refering to Acts 2:38 Jethro in post 364 asks me: "Why are you exempt from havingthe same experience in the receiving of the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Spirit according to the propohecy of Joel--".

I have to confess I do not understand or get your point. [edited personal comment by staff] 238 does not read "the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Splirit." The words "and PROMISE" are not in Acts 238. You have inserted them. Furthermore, the prophecy of Joel is not mentioned in regard to Acts 2:38 perse. Joel's prophecy is mentioned in vs.15-21 and the context of that segment of Peters lesson is refers to Peter's explanation of what happened to the apostles in the opening words of Acts 2. Read it again. Once more, Holy Spirit baptism is a promise not a command. That promise was fulfilled with the apostles on the day of Pentecost in keeping with the prophecy of Joel. The baptism of Acts 2:38 was a command not a promise. You cannot obey a promise only a command and Acts 2:38 is in the imperative.

 

[handy]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

Please don't put words in my mouth.. imo you're wrong in thinking that the WATER is what saved them... the account of the flood is scriptural and even a passive study of that should reveal that the water destroyed.. it didn't save.

Just going to add some final thoughts to this thread then more or less bow out...

So, the waters of the Flood and the waters of baptism... destroy life or save it?

The waters destroy. The Flood cleansed the earth of the sin that had gotten so out of hand. All the old lives of sin and death were destroyed by the waters of the Flood.

In the same way, the waters of baptism also destroy. As Paul pointed out in Romans passage that has been referred to so many times, baptism is a burial. It puts to death the old man of sin. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in baptism. Putting to death the old and the raising up of a new life, a new creation.


Also, this question by Jethro:

"Why are you exempt from having the exact same experience in the receiving of the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Spirit according to the prophecy of Joel but I'm not in regard to how Cornelius and his family received the gift and promise of the Holy Spirit?"

My answer, there is no conflict whatsoever between how Cornelius and his family received the gift and promise of the Holy Spirit and water baptism. Some receive the gift before water baptism, some during and some after. The one in no way makes the other less necessary. Let's not forget that the first response to the fact that the Holy Spirit was poured out on Cornelius and his family was that they were to be water baptized.

This has been a good discussion, folks but I've said pretty much all I have to say on this subject for now and other things are capturing my interest!

 

[Stan53]

Stan53--You quoted Acts 2:38. Thank you. It needs no elaborate interpretation. It says what it means and means what it says.

Yes I totally agree...so why did you comment?

 

[Webb]

Because it was your response to my post.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

Just going to add some final thoughts to this thread then more or less bow out...

So, the waters of the Flood and the waters of baptism... destroy life or save it?

The waters destroy. The Flood cleansed the earth of the sin that had gotten so out of hand. All the old lives of sin and death were destroyed by the waters of the Flood.

In the same way, the waters of baptism also destroy. As Paul pointed out in Romans passage that has been referred to so many times, baptism is a burial. It puts to death the old man of sin. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in baptism. Putting to death the old and the raising up of a new life, a new creation.

I can certainly appreciate your commentary here and would not discourage any brother or sister with these convictions.

As mentioned, if that's the type then I would have to wonder why the LORD waited for the Ark to be prepared..

Heb 11 says..

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

This portion seems to emphasize the Ark and its role in saving his house.. but either way, I always appreciate your careful and I'm sure, prayerful, consideration of the word of God.

We're not done yet..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

In refering to Acts 2:38 Jethro in post 364 asks me: "Why are you exempt from havingthe same experience in the receiving of the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Spirit according to the propohecy of Joel--".

I have to confess I do not understand or get your point. Acts 238 does not read "the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Splirit." The words "and PROMISE" are not in Acts 238. You have inserted them.

[edited personal comment by staff] How did you miss in the series of scripture quotes in my last post that show the 'gift' and the 'promise' of the Holy Spirit are the same thing:

"38 Peter said to them, “ Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” (Acts 2:38-39 NASB)

Now, back to what the implication of all this is. You invalidated my scriptural experience because it didn't happen exactly as it happened to Cornelius. So I asked you why your scriptural experience is not invalidated for the same reason. I ask that because I know you did not speak in tongues nor had visible tongues of fire when you had the scriptural experience of water baptism you defend. For some reason my experience gets invalidated for reasons you excuse your experience from being scrutinized and judged by.

From there I pointed out that you use Paul's teaching (improperly, by the way) to explain why your experience was not the same. But for some reason you do not allow me to use Paul's teaching about the gifts to explain why I did not speak in tongues in my scriptural experience. Your defense is incredibly unfair and unreasonable.

Furthermore, the prophecy of Joel is not mentioned in regard to Acts 2:38 perse. Joel's prophecy is mentioned in vs.15-21 and the context of that segment of Peters lesson is refers to Peter's explanation of what happened to the apostles in the opening words of Acts 2.

It's impossible to make a disconnect between Peter quoting Joel's prophecy as the fulfillment of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit they are witnessing and him then offering them the same gift and promise of the Holy Spirit. He even points out specifically to them the part in the prophecy about it being for their children. I pointed out the continuity of the entire passage in my last post.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

Also, this question by Jethro:

"Why are you exempt from having the exact same experience in the receiving of the gift and PROMISE of the Holy Spirit according to the prophecy of Joel but I'm not in regard to how Cornelius and his family received the gift and promise of the Holy Spirit?"

My answer, there is no conflict whatsoever between how Cornelius and his family received the gift and promise of the Holy Spirit and water baptism. Some receive the gift before water baptism, some during and some after.

Explain that to Webb and the others who swear it can't happen before and apart from water baptism.

The one in no way makes the other less necessary.

But it's not necessary for the purpose of receiving the Holy Spirit...if you already have the Holy Spirit. How can any reasonable person argue with that? Come on, handy, you're a smart lady. How can you argue with dat?

Let's not forget that the first response to the fact that the Holy Spirit was poured out on Cornelius and his family was that they were to be water baptized.

Amen, and amen.

Everybody should obey Jesus in the command to be water baptized. But to suggest Cornelius is not saved until he does that completely ignores the visible, manifest, undeniable fact that he has already been placed into the Body of Christ and sealed for the Day of Redemption by virtue of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit that some people swear you can not have and be saved by until you are water baptized.

 

[dadof10]

Abraham was justified (made, or declared righteous) when he believed God's promise for a son coming from his own body. And then Abraham was justified (shown to righteous) by what he did. Both are necessary for salvation.

I totally disagree with your take on the word "justification" in James meaning "shown to be righteous". It obviously means "shown" or proved to MAN, which doesn't make sense because no one was on the mountain with Abraham and Isaac. This is what I meant when I said this view twists the words of Scripture.

I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a discussion of James 2. I'll just focus on this one sentence. When Abraham "believed God..." it was in Gen. 15:6, he didn't offer Isaac until Gen. 20. These two things happened years apart. Was Abraham justified when he believed, but not saved until he "showed" it years later? That's not what Paul said.

Concerning Hebrews 11 being about "saving faith"...

I don't know. The passage is talking about faith that pleases God. I had faith that did pleasing things for and because of God, before I actually placed my trust in Christ's blood. But I wasn't declared righteous until I had a very specific faith in God's promise of His Son, Jesus. A Son that would come from my own Body via the Holy Spirit. And that is the point.

First of all, it's not one passage its an entire chapter dedicated to the faith of all the OT saints. This is a treatise that it was FAITH, not works of the law, that saves.

Secondly, this is only about saving faith.

"But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your descendants be named."

Maybe the word "heavenly" here doesn't really mean "heaven", huh?

I think it is missing the point to go down the road you're going here. Christianity is about faith in the Promised Son of God who would inherit our blessing on our behalf. I don't see value in dissecting every detail of Abraham's life to form doctrine. We know what is important in the account.

I don't know if Abraham was officially justified when he left Haran. It doesn't say. And Hebrews is talking about things that faith did that pleased God--but then again I did things from faith that pleased God before I was actually justified by my faith in the promise of God's Son.

Please. It is you that is missing the point (intentionally?). The point is that in Gen. 12, Abraham had faith and DID WHAT GOD SAID, he left Haran.

"So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him."

Isn't this YOUR point concerning James, that the "kind" of faith that saves is the faith that has "works" attached? By your own definition Abraham was justified in Gen. 12, long before he "believed God..." So, my point remains. Abraham was justified more than once, which means justification is an ongoing process, not a one time event.

When you get time, could you please address the following point from my last post, this directly concerns baptism:

So a person must "trust", which is an ACT of the will. If the person doesn't "trust", he is not saved. So, in your opinion, we must DO something or we won't be saved. How is this different from my view on baptism? Having faith, or "trusting" is a work too.

 

[Webb]

Jethro your much worded post flops inasmuch as No tongues speaking or fire is associated with Acts 2:38. Try something else.

 

[Webb]

Stan53, if I didn't respond in the "proper manner" to your post then what might that "proper manner" be?

 

[Stan53]

Stan53, if I didn't respond in the "proper manner" to your post then what might that "proper manner" be?

and you're a Senior member? What does that mean? You've been here a long time or you're old like dirt?

 

[reba]

Keep it pleasant guys