Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro on post # 312 says: ''WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION IS YOU MUST HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. PERIOD."

Right Jethro! But the inspired apostle Peter states the gift of the Spirit follows baptism. Just another of those instances where salvation and baptism when mentioned together, baptism first, then saved or its equivalent. BTW, the reference above is Acts 2:38.

Which perhaps explains part of Peter's surprise when Cornelius and his family received the Holy Spirit before their baptism, lol.

It's impossible to make this truth go away. We know from how and when God gave the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts that Acts 2:38 was never to be understood as the ONLY way, as in a hard and fast rule for salvation, that God gives the Holy Spirit, cleansing people from their sins and putting them into the Body of Christ. But I would never argue with you that he does indeed do it that way (it's obviously scriptural).

I've met at least one person for whom it happened that way, at water baptism. And I've heard of others for whom it happened that way. But for the vast majority of Christians I have known it happened for them like it happened for me...we received the Holy Spirit when we believed, before getting water baptized. It's impossible to take the experience away from us on the grounds it has not scriptural support, for it most certainly does. Plain and unqualified support (IOW, it doesn't need a special revelation, or many words of explanation to see and understand).

Come on church! Come to your senses. God gives his Holy Spirit when and where he wants to! Sometimes according to Acts 2:38, sometimes according to Acts 10 in the home of Cornelius. It's the only honest answer there is.

 

[Webb]

Jethro---The baptism of the Spirit in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10,11 was to prove to the Jewish mind that the gentile (which Cornelius was) was to be the recipient of the gospel as well as the Jew. Such was in fulfillment of the prophecy of Joel. Study your Bible. Following the baptism of the Spirit on Cornelius and his house he was then commanded in Acts 10:48 to be baptized. Notice please, Cornelius was "commanded" to be baptized, not that he ought to, or should or maybe if he felt like it, but "commanded." Furthermore Holy Spirit baptism was a "promise", never a command. Water baptism is a "command", thats what Jesus commanded in Mark 16:15,16, did He not? Further, one cannot obey a promise but one can obey a command and Jesus will return to take vengeance on those "who know not God and OBEY not the gospel" II Thes.1:8. The gospel is something you DO, it is something to be OBEYED. I Cor. 15 reveals that the basic facts of the gospel are the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and Romans 6 without equivocation states that baptism is a form of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and Romans 6:17,18 reminds the Romans they had "obeyed from the heart that form or doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN (webb) made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

What is necessary for salvation is you must have the Holy Spirit. Period. But somebody will say, "no you need deeds, too!" And I will say to them, "if you don't have deeds to confirm the presence of the Holy Spirit in you...you ain't got the Holy Spirit!"

If this were true, then you just ruled out believing, repenting of sins, confessing with the mouth and baptism for remission of sins from salvation. Yet the bible says each of these are necessary to being saved.

This is such a petty argument. Faith will change what you do and say. That does not preclude faith as the sole agent of salvation.

"The only thing that counts (toward justification--see context) is faith..." (Galatians 5:6b)

It's a factual argument that refutes faith only 100%. The conjunction "and" ties the two together and faith only can never separate them.

Rom 10:10 "... with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Confessing with the mouth is made UNTO salvation not because of salvation.

Gal 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

THis verse refutes faith only as much as Rom 10:9,10. Nowhere does the phrase "faith only" appear in this verse.

It says a faith which WORKETH by love.

Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Love is defined by keeping the commandments of Christ, so a faith that avails is one that keeps the commandments of Christ. ANd Christ said to believe, rpent, confess and be baptized.

Gal 5:6---circumcision nor uncircumcision not avail>>>faith that worketh by love
1Cor7:19-circum & uncir nothing>>but the keeping of the commandments of God


These two verses parallel each other for both show that circumcisiion and uncircumsions does not avail/is nothing but what does avail is a faith which worketh by love which is equivalent to keeping the commandments of God.

Now you're confusing me. Aren't you insisting that water baptism is not a work? If so, why are you using a passage about faith and work to defend your position?

Baptism is a work that God does. In Acts 2:38 the verb baptized is passive voice, imperative mood. Passive voice, the action is done to the subject, but how does the subject go about fulfillling the imperative/command? My faith must allow me to submit myself to baptism where God does the work. Much like I go to the hospital and submit myself to surgery where the surgeon does the work. If I sit and do nothing the work will never get done by the surgeon or by God. Therefore I obey the command to be baptized where I do the act of submitting myself to the work that God does upon me. If my faith does not contain this act of submitting to God, then God will never work upon me and remove the body of sins.

 

[Eventide]

Think...

I also can't understand how people think that the water mentioned in the account of the flood saved anyone ?

It DESTROYED everyone..

The ARK (A picture of Christ) saved them, not the water..

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...faith must include baptism where God does the work of cutting away the body of sin...

No, Paul says the only thing that counts in regard to faith is...

"...faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6b NIV1984)

That is what MUST be included with saving faith.

The only thing that counts toward justification is faith. Period. Then Paul adds--to this group of people wanting to add work to faith in Christ--that the required quality of this faith is that it be expressed through love...not circumcision, not baptisms, not communions, not Feasts and Festivals, not sacrifices, etc., but LOVE.

"The only thing that counts (toward justification) is FAITH...

(what kind of faith?)

...faith expressing itself through love (for others--see context)." (Galatians 5:6b NIV1984 parenthesis mine)

If you have the faith that finds it's expression through love you have the faith that justifies. That is the ONLY thing that counts:

14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule..." (Galatians 6:14-16 NIV1984)

The new creation that acts and looks like Christ is what counts, not your baptism, not your circumcision, not your denominational beliefs, not your worship practices, and on and on, but rather your faith in Christ...the faith that expresses itself in the changed nature according to the fruit of the Spirit. But so many people will put their confidence in the kinds of things I listed and teach them as essential manifestations and conditions of saving faith and draw their confidence of salvation from them. Instead of from what really counts and what Paul, John, James, and Peter all teach is the essential manifestation of faith that validates faith as being real--'love your neighbor as yourself'.


If you want to teach 'rules' for salvation, teach that one--'faith and the new creation it produces'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

It's a factual argument that refutes faith only 100%. The conjunction "and" ties the two together and faith only can never separate them.

Rom 10:10 "... with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Confessing with the mouth is made UNTO salvation not because of salvation.

Gal 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

THis verse refutes faith only as much as Rom 10:9,10. Nowhere does the phrase "faith only" appear in this verse.

It says a faith which WORKETH by love.

Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Love is defined by keeping the commandments of Christ, so a faith that avails is one that keeps the commandments of Christ. ANd Christ said to believe, rpent, confess and be baptized.

Gal 5:6---circumcision nor uncircumcision not avail>>>faith that worketh by love
1Cor7:19-circum & uncir nothing>>but the keeping of the commandments of God


These two verses parallel each other for both show that circumcisiion and uncircumsions does not avail/is nothing but what does avail is a faith which worketh by love which is equivalent to keeping the commandments of God.

Was not circumcision a direct command of God? And even tied directly to being qualified for Covenant with God? And yet that is the very thing Paul is countering (a command of God) when he said "the only thing that counts is faith...".

You can go through all the gyrations that you want, but going to get baptized is a literal work, plain and simple. Don't get confused, we are indeed commanded to do that, along with a lot of other things, but to suggest it is because we did that work that we are saved is completely contrary to the Bible's teaching that justification is through faith, apart from the merit of works.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

IMO it's missing the entire context to think that Peter is speaking about OUR baptism.. it's speaking about the baptism of Christ upon Calvary's cross, where there the waves and billows did roll over Him.. when God made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in HIM..

I would read this over and over again in its full context because then it certainly becomes apparent that this is speaking of His baptism, and our conscience being clean by HIM being RAISED from the dead.

If there's a baptism that saves, then it's the baptism of Christ upon that cross where His precious blood was shed for our sin.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

There is nothing in the context that suggests Peter is talking about some baptism Christ supposedly had upon the cross. The baptism Peter speaks of is one that saves us, Christ does not need saving. This is the same baptism Peter spoke of in acts 2:38 that remits sins....remit sins = save us. Peter compares this baptism that saves us to the eight souls that were saved by water. So Peter is talking about water baptism which is that "one baptism" of Eph 4:5.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

Peter compares this baptism that saves us to the eight souls that were saved by water. So Peter is talking about water baptism which is that "one baptism" of Eph 4:5.

So in your thinking, the WATER is what saved those on the Ark, is that correct ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Think...

I also can't understand how people think that the water mentioned in the account of the flood saved anyone ?

It DESTROYED everyone..

The ARK (A picture of Christ) saved them, not the water..

1 Pet 3:20 "...eight souls were saved by water."

This it the OT type. The like figure or NT anti-type to this OT type is used saved by baptism. Water is what Peter has under consideration that saves, so we are saved by WATER baptism just like those eight souls were saved by water. God used the flood waters to separate the saved from the lost just as the waters of baptism separate the saved from the lost.

 

[Webb]

Jethro wrote, #321: COLME ON CHURCH! COME TO YOUR SENSES. GOD GIVES HIS HOLY SPIRIT WHEN AND WHERE HE WANTS TO. SOMETIMES ACCORDING TO ACTS 2:38, SOMETIMES ACCORDING TO ACTS 10 IN THE HOME OF CORNELIUS."

Of course God gives ''His Spirit when and where He wants to" because He IS God, but you have neither authority nor right to claim it on your terms.

Peter said the Spirit fell on the house of Cornelius as it did on the apostles on Pentecost, Acts 2, Acts 11:15. Notice those words in the text: "as on us at the begining." What happened when the Spirit came on the apostles "at thebegining"? Well, there was a rushing, mighty wind, did that occur when you claimed you got the Spirit? There were tongues like as of fire which sat upon each of the apostles, now are you going to tell us that also happened to you? I you are going to claim conversion like that of Cornelius you have got to have that. If not, why not?

Furthermore Acts 10,11 was in fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. Was yours? If not, why not?

Furtherore the case of Cornelius occurred but once, we are not informed by scripture that it ever happened again. BUT, the case of Acts 2 where the Spirit is given FOLLOWING water baptism involved at least 3,000 from all known countries at the time AND the promise of the "remission of sins" and "gift of the Holy Spirit" was "--unto you , and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call", Acts 2:39. Now, all you have to do is show where any such promise was made in the giving of the Spirit to Cornelius.

Thats right, only God can decide when, where and how He will bestow portions of the Holy Spirit and the scripture onlly guide, not subjectiveism as you have so hinted.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

So in your thinking, the WATER is what saved those on the Ark, is that correct ?

That's exactly what Peter said:


1 Pet 3:20 "...eight souls were saved by water."


Some try and change what Peter said by saying they were saved in an ark just avoid the force of what Peter is saying, that being, those 8 souls were saved by water (flood) and we are saved by water (baptism)

 

[Eventide]

Re: Think...

1 Pet 3:20 "...eight souls were saved by water."

Some translations say 'through water'... which when you think about it.. makes sense.. because let's face the simple truth here.. the water didn't save anyone, it destroyed them. The ARK was the only thing that saved them and again that's a wondrous picture of Christ.

IMO the difference is in looking at what you are doing instead of looking at what HE has DONE... and your conscience will never be clean if you're focused on what YOU are doing rather than what He HAS done.

 

[Eventide]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

That's exactly what Peter said:


1 Pet 3:20 "...eight souls were saved by water."


Some try and change what Peter said by saying they were saved in an ark just avoid the force of what Peter is saying, that being, those 8 souls were saved by water (flood) and we are saved by water (baptism)

Well, then I'll take that as a yes.. you're thinking that the WATER is what saved those on the Ark..

IMO that's seriously flawed.. The Ark ALONE saved them through the water.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

Was not circumcision a direct command of God? And even tied directly to being qualified for Covenant with God? And yet that is the very thing Paul is countering (a command of God) when he said "the only thing that counts is faith...".

You can go through all the gyrations that you want, but going to get baptized is a literal work, plain and simple. Don't get confused, we are indeed commanded to do that, along with a lot of other things, but to suggest it is because we did that work that we are saved is completely contrary to the Bible's teaching that justification is through faith, apart from the merit of works.

CIrcumcision was a covenantial sign between God and the Jews and has nothing to do with us today who are under Christ's NT gospel. The Hebrew writer said Christ taketh away the first (OT) so He may establish the second (NT).

Yet Paul at times had to deal with Judiazing teachers, as at Galatia, who falsely taught one could not be saved unless he was circumcised, (the apostles had a meeting about this in Jerusalem, Act 15:1,2). Paul's point is that being circumcised or not circumcised had no bearing on one's salvation, to be saved one must have a faith which worketh by love, a faith which keeps the commandments of God.


Baptism is a work, it is a work that God does. How do you explain the passive voice of baptized in Acts 2:38? Baptism is something I have to submit myself to but it is God doing the work. Have you ever had surgery? Didn't you go to a surgery center and submit yourself to the surgeon where he did the work of surgery upon you? Do you claim you did that work of surgery yourself?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

Well, then I'll take that as a yes.. you're thinking that the WATER is what saved those on the Ark..

IMO that's seriously flawed.. The Ark ALONE saved them through the water.

1 Pet 3:20 "...eight souls were saved by water." Case closed.

The 8 souls being saved by water is the OT type.

Us being saved by water baptism is the NT type.

THis is the point Peter was making. Yet you are trying to change what Peter said to:

the OT type being 8 souls saved by the ark

then the NT anti-type is us being saved by the ark.

THe NT anti-type is a mirror reflection of the OT type and what you are trying to change in order to get around water baptism saving us simply does not work.

 

[Kidron]

Re: Think...

Some translations say 'through water'... which when you think about it.. makes sense.. because let's face the simple truth here.. the water didn't save anyone, it destroyed them. The ARK was the only thing that saved them and again that's a wondrous picture of Christ.

good post Eventide;647650..


Without the shedding of Jesus The Christ's blood there is no remission of sins.
Without the remission of sins, there is no salvation of anyone.

think also of this...

the finished work of Jesus was finished when he said..."it is finished".
then to prove it was finished he walked out of a grave.
did you notice there is no baptismal pool anywhere near the cross or the grave of Jesus????????
There is a reason.
Did you notice that the gospel is always preached, believed, and then water follows.
Its never water first, or water for....its always, gospel, faith/believe, and THEN you baptise.

Acts 8:37,38



K

 

[Eventide]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

1 Pet 3:20 "...eight souls were saved by water." Case closed.

The 8 souls being saved by water is the OT type.

Us being saved by water baptism is the NT type.

THis is the point Peter was making. Yet you are trying to change what Peter said to:

the OT type being 8 souls saved by the ark

then the NT anti-type is us being saved by the ark.

THe NT anti-type is a mirror reflection of the OT type and what you are trying to change in order to get around water baptism saving us simply does not work.

Correction... the OT type would be the Ark... for in the volume of the book it is written of Him.. and the NT reality is Christ.. as there is salvation in NO OTHER name.

And once again imo this is painfully obvious.. the water destroyed everyone and the Ark saved those who entered into it by faith.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: Think...

Some translations say 'through water'... which when you think about it.. makes sense.. because let's face the simple truth here.. the water didn't save anyone, it destroyed them. The ARK was the only thing that saved them and again that's a wondrous picture of Christ.

IMO the difference is in looking at what you are doing instead of looking at what HE has DONE... and your conscience will never be clean if you're focused on what YOU are doing rather than what He HAS done.

Eight souls saved by water
Eight souls saved through water

Same thing.

Again, Peter's point is that they were saved by/through water and the anti-type to that is us being saved by/through water baptism. Literal flood water compared to baptized in literal water, H2O.

What Christ did, He did for everyone yet everyone will not be saved for everyone wil not obey Him, Heb 5:9, in believing, repenting, confessing with the mouth and being baptized.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Think...

Eight souls saved by water
Eight souls saved through water

Same thing.

Again, Peter's point is that they were saved by/through water and the anti-type to that is us being saved by/through water baptism. Literal flood water compared to baptized in literal water, H2O.

What Christ did, He did for everyone yet everyone will not be saved for everyone wil not obey Him, Heb 5:9, in believing, repenting, confessing with the mouth and being baptized.

Well it's clear that we'll need to agree to disagree here and move on.. good conversation though imo.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: I have a baptism to be baptized with

Correction... the OT type would be the Ark... for in the volume of the book it is written of Him.. and the NT reality is Christ.. as there is salvation in NO OTHER name.

And once again imo this is painfully obvious.. the water destroyed everyone and the Ark saved those who entered into it by faith.

Peter did NOT say eight souls saved by the ark.