Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[heymikey80]

Jesus is quite clear – the promise of salvation is to the one who believes and is baptized and the one who refuses to believe is condemned already regardless of whether he has been baptized are not (Mark 16:16).

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

These words are very important. The first clause [belief and baptism] opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith. (The Pulpit Commentary)​

It amazes me to see the lengths some will go to eliminate baptism from God’s plan to save our race.

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Paul was cross-examined and judged by Jesus' disciples as to his teaching. Paul's teachings were identified as Jesus'.

So if baptism is treated as a work, it's excluded. "By what law? By the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of law." Rom 3:27-28, ESV

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Rom 4:4-8

 

[dadof10]

This is not a snarky question?
If water baptism saves why the Cross.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If IF any one scripture could stand alone i would think John 3:16 might be it.

I see salvation in the Blood of Christ and once again yes a believer should be baptized.

Water baptism is the application of the merits of the Cross.

"It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand —with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

 

[dadof10]

This is not a snarky question?
If water baptism saves why the Cross.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If IF any one scripture could stand alone i would think John 3:16 might be it.

I see salvation in the Blood of Christ and once again yes a believer should be baptized.

Water baptism is the application of the merits of the Cross.

"It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand —with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

That's what Peter means by this. It can mean nothing else. Water baptism saves by the resurrection.

 

[heymikey80]

This is not remotely close to what Peter said.

Reading the Greek, that's what Peter said. I didn't inject "purpose of" into what Peter said. It's what Peter said.

Again, Peter made the OT flood water the type and made NT water baptism the anti-type. In the parenthetical phrase Peter makes a distinction between the flood water and the water of baptism.

Aside, it's just remarkable to me that the metaphor of baptism in Greek is so strikingly neglected from every discussion. "baptism" is a Greek word for "death", that undertone grants insights to every epistle, and indeed to the death of Christ.

The flood water is not the answer of a good conscience towards God but water baptism. One cannot face God with a sinful, guilty conscience. Baptism remite sin getting rid of the guilty concience of sin. Baptism is how one gets that good conscience towards God, it does not happen by doing nothing.

whew, so now flood water is not the type for baptism. mmm. Flood waters don't clean diddly. Peter is referring in both cases to baptism, not the water that cleanses, but as baptism requires, the answer in good conscience toward God.

Through or by does not matter,

Does something God says, matter? It does matter that Peter doesn't use the word. And so Peter's meaning doesn't demand "by". The connection Peter mentions is readily different from what's described.

it does not change the type to anti-type Peter made, it certainly does not chamge the fact "Baptism doth also now save us".
People have long tried to find a way to change the simple fact Peter stated here.

"not the cleansing of dirt from the body" -- people have long tried to find a way to change the simple fact Peter stated here. Water isn't the point. Conscientious response to God through the resurrection of Christ is the point.

Repentance and baptism are not the same thing in Acts 2:38. A sinner can repent of his sins but repentance does not remit sins. The sins remain until he is baptized to have those sins remitted.

That's simply not the case. Repentance does result in God's remittance of sins.

46 “If they sin against you— for there is no one who does not sin—and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near, 47 yet if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors, saying, ‘We have sinned and have acted perversely and wickedly,’ 48 if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen, and the house that I have built for your name, 49 then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause 50 and forgive your people who have sinned against you, and all their transgressions that they have committed against you, and grant them compassion in the sight of those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them 51 ( for they are your people, and your heritage, which you brought out of Egypt, from the midst of the iron furnace). 1 Kings 8:46-51

I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42:5-6

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Mt 4:17

There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Lk 13:1-5

"Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Lk 15:10

"Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things." Lk 24:46-48

 

[dadof10]

And Paul says the only thing that counts towards justification is faith:

"The only thing that counts is faith..." (Galatians 5:6b NIV1984)

Done. Case closed.

Paul is contrasting faith with circumcision, like in all his "faith vs works" teachings. Also, the second half of the verse, the part you elipsed through, makes it clear that Paul is not making the case that only faith justifies.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

"Expressing itself through love" means love, which also takes an act of the will, is required. If this were not the case, the "faith alone" crowd would bring up this verse (the entire verse, not just half of it) every time the "not by faith alone" crowd says this teaching is not scriptural. It is NECESSARY for faith to express itself through ACTIONS, or we are not justified. So, the "only thing that counts", if we read the ENTIRE verse, is faith expressing itself (performing actions), which means not by faith alone.

 

[heymikey80]

...
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

"Expressing itself through love" means love, which also takes an act of the will, is required. If this were not the case, the "faith alone" crowd would bring up this verse (the entire verse, not just half of it) every time the "not by faith alone" crowd says this teaching is not scriptural. It is NECESSARY for faith to express itself through ACTIONS, or we are not justified. So, the "only thing that counts", if we read the ENTIRE verse, is faith expressing itself (performing actions), which means not by faith alone.

Nothing here says the expression of faith into action is crucial for salvation. That's why the doctrine of faith alone is, "Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone."

So
faith >>>> baptism
faith >>>> action
faith >>>> salvation

It's faith that brings about an expression of love. So faith is required for the significant expression of love to occur.

But that expression is not required for Christ to see our hearts and save us. The rescuer hit by a bus is not denied salvation simply because he didn't rescue another.

 

[Kidron]

Is it possible that some people who read this verse, " He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes NOT shall be damned"....are not paying attention to the context?

Did anyone notice the context of the "damned" person in that verse.
Its BELIEVING OR NOT......that saves or damns.
Not, Believing and being baptised or not".
Read the verse, and dont omit the context as the 2nd part gives the context.

And why the fascination with Peter?
Peter was not the person who was given the revelation of the Gospel of the Grace of God.
This is why he is preaching the Jewish, House of Israel, John the Baptist, repentance/be baptised message in Acts 2:38.
This is why by Acts 15, Peter is no longer preaching the Jewish, John the Baptist< repentance/be baptised message found in Acts 2:38.
And the reason is, by that time, PAUL was here and the Gospel of the Grace of God was now realized by all the Jewish apostles who came to understand
the Grace of God, after Paul came around with the doctrine.

Paul is your "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law"...Theologian.
Paul is your, "in Christ" , theologian.
Paul is the person who in Galations tells you that any other gospel other then HIS, should be cursed of God and that the person preaching any other gospel then his, should also be cursed of God...
So be careful that you understand exactly what Romans 3-5 and Galatians are explaining about "faith alone", as he describes it.
Paul is the person Jesus took into the desert and personally revealed the gospel of Grace without works and without anything, including water baptism.

And did you notice Acts 2:21 and Acts 16:31?
These are the verses you use to give context to Acts 2:38.

And do you know that Peter said that what Paul wrote is Scripture?
He said that Paul's theology is Scripture....2nd Peter 3:16
So, even Peter recognized the authority of the revelation that Paul had for the Body of Christ.
And in Peter's day, there was no New Testament.
He only had the Old, or the "Torah", and he is proclaiming that Paul's theology is equal to the Torah.
So, when you want to understand bible doctrine, especially regarding the revelation of the Grace of God >that was not being preached in Acts 2:38<, then you go directly to Paul, as he is the person Jesus personally revealed the doctrine of justification by faith alone without the Jewish water ritual as necessary FOR salvation, but required as symbolic obedience in that it represents your old man dying and your new man being resurrected.
Water baptism symbolically identifies you as, "in Christ".

Read Acts 8, and notice Phillip and the Ethiopian.
He gives the proper steps regarding salvation and then water., (8:37)

Water cannot impute the righteousness of God to your account.
Only God can do this, and he does it based on your receiving his Son as your sin bearer.
Water cannot bear your sins, nor can it wash them away.
""What can wash away my sins, nothing but water bap-tis......um"
Not quite...2
You have to have righteous blood SHED as the means to forgive and pardon..
Notice the scripture does not say....."without the shedding of water baptism, there is no remission of Sins"....Hebrews 9:22



K

 

[Stan53]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

First, there are many salvic verses not just Romans 10:9,10. We have to examine all savlic verses to determine what is necesary to be saved.

Secondly, Rom 10:9,0 refutes faith only. Paul said one has to believe AND confess with the mouth to be saved. Faith only would rule out confessing with the mouth.

Lastly, the bible says faith alone does NOT justify therefore faith only does NOT bring salvation. Faith only is dead and a dead faith cannot do anything much less save.

Sorry, I seem to have lost track of this thread.

Yes there are many salvic verses and ALL need to be used. However, Jesus also said in Matthew 10:32, “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven."
The confession is done OUT of faith, NOT in addition to. Water baptism is done OUT of faith, NOT in addition to. You turn ON a light switch OUT of faith that the light WILL go on. If you didn't have faith in your house's electrical system, you wouldn't even bother flipping the switch.

I think it only proper, that when you say, the Bible says something, that you quote from where it says that. I don't recognize this assertion you made, that FAITH ALONE DOES NOT JUSTIFY.

 

[dadof10]

Nothing here says the expression of faith into action is crucial for salvation. That's why the doctrine of faith alone is, "Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone."

I agree. Paul is making the point that circumcision is not needed for salvation. This is the point of all his "faith vs. works" passages. He is not making the case that only "accepting Jesus as lord and savour" saves, but that circumcision doesn't.

It's faith that brings about an expression of love. So faith is required for the significant expression of love to occur.

Again, I agree. We can do no salvific actions without doing them in faith.

But that expression is not required for Christ to see our hearts and save us. The rescuer hit by a bus is not denied salvation simply because he didn't rescue another.

Here is where we part ways. Nowhere does Scripture teach this. The verse says: The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. This is one thing. He didn't say "faith THAT EXPRESSES ITSELF", he says "faith expressing...", faith in ACTION, faith DOING.

 

[heymikey80]

Here is where we part ways. Nowhere does Scripture teach this. The verse says: The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. This is one thing. He didn't say "faith THAT EXPRESSES ITSELF", he says "faith expressing...", faith in ACTION, faith DOING.

Nowhere does Paul say, "The only thing that counts for salvation is faith expressing itself through love.

It simply doesn't say that. What Paul says is to the point of unity in the faith, Gentile and Jewish believer. In Christ circumcision doesn't count, but faith does.

Faith before God is how God marks out those who receive His salvation. Faith expressing itself in love counts for our brothers who receive that expression.

So these expressions do count.

But not everything is salvation.

For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Gal 3:21-22

to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

 

[Asyncritus]

Is it possible that some people who read this verse, " He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes NOT shall be damned"....are not paying attention to the context?

Did anyone notice the context of the "damned" person in that verse.
Its BELIEVING OR NOT......that saves or damns.
Not, Believing and being baptised or not".
Read the verse, and dont omit the context as the 2nd part gives the context.

Just one comment here, Kidron.

Isn't it obvious that someone who DOESN'T BELIEVE will NEVER be baptised? That's why Jesus didn't say what you think He should have said.

 

[dadof10]

Nowhere does Paul say, "The only thing that counts for salvation is faith expressing itself through love.

I agree.

It simply doesn't say that. What Paul says is to the point of unity in the faith, Gentile and Jewish believer. In Christ circumcision doesn't count, but faith does.

I agree.

Faith before God is how God marks out those who receive His salvation. Faith expressing itself in love counts for our brothers who receive that expression.

So these expressions do count.

But not everything is salvation.

For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Gal 3:21-22

to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

You'll have to be a little clearer on this point. What do you mean by "Faith before God is how God marks out those who receive His salvation."? Do you think faith is the ONLY way He "marks out" believers?

The point I disagreed with was this:

"But that expression is not required for Christ to see our hearts and save us."

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are saying that our outward expressions of love and obedience to God (i.e. good deeds done in faith) are not necessary for salvation, that God sees our hearts and either saves or damns us by what He finds there. Am I reading you wrong?

I would note that these verses do have something tangentially to do with salvation, after all, Paul does reference faith, which saves and says "For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness", which alludes to justification.

 

[Stan53]

Just one comment here, Kidron.

Isn't it obvious that someone who DOESN'T BELIEVE will NEVER be baptised? That's why Jesus didn't say what you think He should have said.

Sorry if I'm butting in, but I just couldn't help it.

Someone who DOES believe may not get baptized. Jesus knew people could be thick so He would address BOTH parts of His statement IF both were obligatory. He only addressed the BELIEVE part so I would gather that the BAPTIZED part was NOT obligatory.

 

[heymikey80]

You'll have to be a little clearer on this point. What do you mean by "Faith before God is how God marks out those who receive His salvation."? Do you think faith is the ONLY way He "marks out" believers?

to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

It's the sole operative way God marks-out those who are saved.

Of course it's tautologically how He marks-out believers. Faith is belief.

The point I disagreed with was this:

"But that expression is not required for Christ to see our hearts and save us."

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are saying that our outward expressions of love and obedience to God (i.e. good deeds done in faith) are not necessary for salvation, that God sees our hearts and either saves or damns us by what He finds there. Am I reading you wrong?

I'm saying God changes hearts, and that heart of faith is what leads God to consider us righteous before Him: not works (cf Rom 4:5 above).

We're talking about requirements for a purpose: the purpose is for salvation.

Our good works are required for other purposes. Not salvation.

Eph 2:8-10 says this very precisely.

 

[Stan53]

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are saying that our outward expressions of love and obedience to God (i.e. good deeds done in faith) are not necessary for salvation, that God sees our hearts and either saves or damns us by what He finds there. Am I reading you wrong?

In the context being used previously, I understand what he is saying. Works, deeds, are necessary for our WALK in Christ, NOT our salvation. Salvation is by FAITH alone. Eph 2:8

 

[Stan53]

to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

It's the sole operative way God marks-out those who are saved.

Of course it's tautologically how He marks-out believers. Faith is belief.

I'm saying God changes hearts, and that heart of faith is what leads God to consider us righteous before Him: not works (cf Rom 4:5 above).

We're talking about requirements for a purpose: the purpose is for salvation.

Our good works are required for other purposes. Not salvation.

Eph 2:8-10 says this very precisely.

LOL...Jinx...you owe me a Coke Zero!

 

[heymikey80]

I would note that these verses do have something tangentially to do with salvation, after all, Paul does reference faith, which saves and says "For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness", which alludes to justification.

If this verse meant our righteousness awaited us in the future, then it would contradict Romans 4:4-5. Plus, Romans 5:1 starts on the assumption that we have been justified by faith -- not future, but past.

Tangential connection with salvation, no problem. But Paul did indeed say "counts for anything", not "counts for salvation". Paul's argument extends outside salvation to the relationships among Christians, e.g. at Gal 5:13ff

 

[heymikey80]

LOL...Jinx...you owe me a Coke Zero!

Heh! All they had was

 

[Stan53]

Heh! All they had was

Hahahaha...can't, I'm a diabetic!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Water baptism does not justify (make one righteous). The only thing that does that is believing and trusting in God's Son, Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of sins. From there we are also justified (shown to be righteous) by what we do ("I will show you my faith by my deeds"--James 2:18 NIV1984).

And there are lots of ways that faith in God's forgiveness is seen in what we do. Water baptism being one of them. But the only manifestation of faith that matters, and which counts towards validating the faith that produced it as being real, is the faith that manifests itself in the fruit of the Spirit, summed up in the command 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Paul, James, Peter, and John all speak of this truth. That is the measuring rod of true saving faith. That is how we know if we have really passed from death to life through our faith in Christ and the forgiveness of sin. THAT is what MUST accompany one's faith for that faith to be validated as a sincere faith that can save you. This doesn't mean you can skip baptism. It means if you're relying on water baptism as a check mark on a salvation 'to do' list your confidence is in the wrong place.