Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Kidron]

Obedience is the thing God requires above all else.

Why are you separating the two things - faith and baptism?


because one saves you, and one is a symbolic act that of itself cant save you.


He that believeth AND is baptised shall be saved.
He that BELIEVETH NOT and is baptised shall NOT be saved.


this explains to you that >not believing< is the part of that verse that is the context of receiving salvation or not..
Once again, go to Acts 8 and read how Philip explains it......Acts 8:38
Its quite clear.
Paul is also quite clear,,... if you have the Letters sent to the Romans and the Galatians nearby and care to look.
See, the problem is.....there is a Jewish baptism that Peter was involved with that John the Baptist was involved with, that cant save you.
And if you try to use this same baptism to attempt to wash someones sins away....that is to say, to try to preach "water baptism AND faith" is required for Salvation, then you are no longer identifying with the Gospel, but you are preaching Acts 2:38,.
The Gospel... which is that you have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of CHRIST, and this finished work is the only thing that can remit sins and pardon yours.
"Water baptism", is not a part of salvation, as WB cant pay for your sins.
So, be careful that you dont preach "another Gospel", other then 1st Corin 15:3,4.....Romans 10:4,9............and of course, if you are so interested in this word "baptism", then at least go with this as it is the actual baptism that saves you......."for by one SPIRIT are all BAPTISED into one body"..
See that?
Thats not water..





K

.

............

 

[stovebolts]

I've been baptised 3 times in my life: once as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, once as a 12 year-old in the American Baptist Church, and once as a 30-something in another American Baptist Church.

If baptism saves, does this mean I've been saved 3 times?

It shows how the below passage is applied...

1 Corinthians 1:12-13 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of the Roman Catholic Church ; and I of American Baptist Church; and I of another American Baptist Church; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was the Roman Catholic Church crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of the American Baptist Church?

This is what scriptures says:
Ephesians 4:5-6 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[Slider]

I'm way too busy to read all responses to this thread (although I kept up for about the first 8-10 pages, though). So I'll give my answer to the original post and I apologize if it's already been talked about.

The answer is yes you have to be baptized. However, people mistakenly think that automatically means "water baptism". You don't have to undergo John's baptism (John baptized with water), but you do have to undergo Jesus' baptism (Jesus baptised with the Holy Ghost and with Fire... No one wants to undergo that kind of baptism literally -- the fire part -- do they?).

When you understand the word "baptise" it simply means emmersed. Yes, usually in the context of water, but not always. You can be emmersed in your studies, in your favorite tv show or a book... It means to be covered and consumed wholely.

With that in mind, Jesus said to baptize people in the name of the father son and holy ghost, teaching all nations... So baptism is more about teaching than it is water.

There is nothing wrong with literal water baptism. Folks did it in the Bible, but not everyone did. The true baptism you MUST undergo is being baptized into Jesus Christ -- The WORD.

 

[stovebolts]

There is nothing wrong with literal water baptism. Folks did it in the Bible, but not everyone did. The true baptism you MUST undergo is being baptized into Jesus Christ -- The WORD.

And we have a picture of doing just that as one enters into the baptismal pool.

You cannot separate the spiritual from the physical. Talk is cheap and our faith is called into action in many ways.

 

[dadof10]

because one saves you, and one is a symbolic act that of itself cant save you.

Where does Scripture call water baptism "symbolic"?

 

[reba]

No, it means you performed redundant acts. "One baptism". Your initial salvation happened when you were first baptized. You can lose your salvation, which means getting it back by obedience to Christ. Justification is a process...

Baptism in water saves then those folks who are baptized in the Ganges River are saved?
Salvation is by the Blood of Christ

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[stovebolts]

Where does Scripture call water baptism "symbolic"?

NIV: 1 Peter 3:21 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We see that Noah's flood is a symbol for baptism... a baptism that saves us. And we know that Noah's family was saved by water. But what were they saved from, and as Christians, what are we now saved from? Again, we cannot separate the physical from the spiritual when it comes to salvation. To do so is a horrible disservice to the transforming work of God.

 

[Kidron]

Where does Scripture call water baptism "symbolic"?

The same place the word "trinity" and "rapture" are found..


Listen.
Water baptism IDENTIFIES you with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
Its a figure.
Think of it as being in the army.
In the army you wear a uniform, but the uniform does not sign you up, it only shows you have committed to the agreement when you signed up.
Water baptism, is like the army uniform............it shows/represents that you have signed up for eternal life by faith.


Now, tell me if you agree with this statement as i would like to find out exactly how you view water baptism regarding the salvation of a person.

You can be saved/born again and not ever be baptised in water, and you can be baptised in water and not be saved/born again.

 

[stovebolts]

Where does Scripture call water baptism "symbolic"?

NIV: 1 Peter 3:21 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

We see that Noah's flood is a symbol for baptism... a baptism that saves us. And we know that Noah's family was saved by water. But what were they saved from, and as Christians, what are we now saved from? Again, we cannot separate the physical from the spiritual when it comes to salvation. To do so is a horrible disservice to the transforming work of God.

 

[Kidron]

.. a baptism that saves us. And we know that Noah's family was saved by water. But what were they saved from, and as Christians, what are we now saved from? Again, we cannot separate the physical from the spiritual when it comes to salvation. To do so is a horrible disservice to the transforming work of God.

The baptism that saves you is the one that Jesus took when he was describing it in Mark 10:38..

The baptism that saves you is the CUP of Judgement for your sins and mine that Jesus asked his Father to let pass if possible from him.

The baptism that saves you is the spiritual regeneration that occurs when the Holy Spirit regenerates your dead spirit after you hear the Gospel, and react to it by FAITH.

So, dont confuse what Jesus did for you, with some work or effort you do, whether it be water baptism or whatever..
See, anything you do to try to earn salvation, is a work.
You are not saved by anything you do, and you are not to think of being baptised in water as what saves you,... as it cant save a goat.
However, with respect to identifying you as a Christian, and representing your faith that you exercised in Christ, then you should be water baptised following being born again.

And would you please stop trying to represent water baptism as the means of salvation?
Instead, give Jesus the credit that he suffered and died to earn for you.

thx.,




K

 

[stovebolts]

The same place the word "trinity" and "rapture" are found..


Listen.
Water baptism IDENTIFIES you with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
Its a figure.
Think of it as being in the army.
In the army you wear a uniform, but the uniform does not sign you up, it only shows you have committed to the agreement when you signed up.
Water baptism, is like the army uniform............it shows/represents that you have signed up for eternal life by faith.


Now, tell me if you agree with this statement as i would like to find out exactly how you view water baptism regarding the salvation of a person.

You can be saved/born again and not ever be baptised in water, and you can be baptised in water and not be saved/born again.

Hi Kidron,

Would you agree that baptism, like circumcision is received as a sign and seal of rightousness by faith?

NIV: Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

 

[stovebolts]

The baptism that saves you is the one that Jesus took when he was describing it in Mark 10:38..

The baptism that saves you is the CUP of Judgement for your sins and mine that Jesus asked his Father to let pass if possible from him.

The baptism that saves you is the spiritual regeneration that occurs when the Holy Spirit regenerates your dead spirit after you hear the Gospel, and react to it by FAITH.

So, dont confuse what Jesus did for you, with some work or effort you do, whether it be water baptism or whatever..
See, anything you do to try to earn salvation, is a work.
You are not saved by anything you do, and you are not to think of being baptised in water as what saves you,... as it cant save a goat.
However, with respect to identifying you as a Christian, and representing your faith that you exercised in Christ, then you should be water baptised following being born again.

And would you please stop trying to represent water baptism as the means of salvation?
Instead, give Jesus the credit that he suffered and died to earn for you.

thx.,




K

Oh I'm not confusing baptism as a work. I am arguing that it is a response to the gospel and that we need to get out of the mindset that it's a work by way of church ritual, but we also need to give baptism the credence it deserves, and is representative of in the scriptures. In short, no need to water down the importance of baptism, and we can do this without considering it a work of the flesh.

One last thing though. You mentioned that anything you try to do is considered a work. I disagree. When we work for a wage, then it is something we are trying to earn. But when we do it out of a pure heart as a response to the gospel, it is still a work, but not with the motive of receiving a wage. It is the acceptance of a gift. In other words, we are doing God's work, and this gives glory to God.

In this way, when we enter into the baptismal pool with a clean conscience etc, our faith, like Abraham's proceeded our works, so faith and works are working together... performing God's work in us.

 

[Slider]

And we have a picture of doing just that as one enters into the baptismal pool.

You cannot separate the spiritual from the physical. Talk is cheap and our faith is called into action in many ways.

What?!?!? The spiritual and physical have NOTHING to do with each other! The only connection they have is one is under submission to the other for a short time.

 

[Stan53]

To be more specific.
Its predestined according to foreknowledge..

now to explain this simply..

God has advanced knowledge, its called "fore"...
in other words, before the thing happens God already knew it would.

So, he already KNEW who is going to be saved, "predestined", based on knowing beforehand everything that happens., and he calls this group his "elect".

This is why he speaks of "knowing you" before you were in your mother's womb.

Where some get confused is by misapplying "foreknowledge" and trying to make it say..."CAUSED".

So, we understand that for God to know a thing before it happens, is not the same as causing it to happen.

be blessed,

K

Yes I agree...I was just trying to stick to the OP.

 

[Asyncritus]

The same place the word "trinity" and "rapture" are found..


Listen.
Water baptism IDENTIFIES you with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
Its a figure.
Think of it as being in the army.
In the army you wear a uniform, but the uniform does not sign you up, it only shows you have committed to the agreement when you signed up.
Water baptism, is like the army uniform............it shows/represents that you have signed up for eternal life by faith.

So if you haven't signed up, you are not in the army in any form or fashion. You're dead.

Now, tell me if you agree with this statement as i would like to find out exactly how you view water baptism regarding the salvation of a person.

You can be saved/born again and not ever be baptised in water, and you can be baptised in water and not be saved/born again.

Those who only had John's baptism, had to be baptised again - so important is it.

Why do you think that is?

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And you'll note that they received the HSP after their baptism. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.






[/QUOTE]

 

[Kidron]

Hi Kidron,

Would you agree that baptism, like circumcision is received as a sign and seal of rightousness by faith?

NIV: Romans 4:11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Im not suggesting that water baptism is to be abolished.
Not at all.
Where i have an issue with what you are teaching, is very simple...
U are implying that Salvation of the soul....that spiritual regeneration..... cannot be separated from water baptism .
You have been teaching that water baptism is a sort of part 11, regarding salvation, and that without it, there is no salvation.
In other words, you are teaching that Faith + water baptism is the means of salvation, vs what Paul teaches,..... which is.... Faith in Christ alone with nothing else as a part of it, is what God has provided to save a soul.

Did you notice that Jesus in John 14:6, said that the way to heaven is to be baptised for the remission of your sins?
No you didnt.
Because he didnt say that......but what he did say is that the way to heaven is "he", as in "THE WAY"....

So, if Acts is a book of transition, which it is, whereby the grace of God is not revealed as a "gospel", until its given to Paul and not Peter, then what we have to do is realize that the Jewish water baptism of Acts 2:38 is all that Peter knew at that time, as he is a Jew doing what a Jew does who does not have the revelation of "Faith without works", yet.
Jesus had just left the planet in Acts 2, and he had been sent to the house of Israel and not to the gentiles, at that time., and he was baptised so that all thing would be "fulfilled".
And they were, with him saying....."it is finished", from the cross being the last step he had to take before he was raised from the dead.
So, the "time of the gentiles" was not yet on the calender when Jewish Peter was preaching a Jewish water baptism sermon, in Acts 2:38.
This is why Peter is not talking about "justification by faith alone" Doctrine.
Cause he didnt know about this yet.
This is where Paul comes in, as he is your gentile Apostle (Romans 11:13) and his message is the one you should be using, which is...."believe and thou shalt be saved and thy house"., instead of trying to use Peter's Jewish sermon that he was preaching to a huge assembly of JEWS in Acts 2:38.

and regarding your position regarding the circumcision of Abraham, and what it means to gentiles.
He was given this as a sign of his FAITH...(Romans 4:9,11), and did you notice that he was not water baptised ?
See, salvation, is all about having the righteousness of God imputed or charged to you...(Romans 4:7,24) so that you are covered and forgiven, and you dont get this by water, you get it by FAITH ALONE.

So when a person preaches "water baptism" saves, he is preaching a jewish water repentance ritual to gentiles, and that is simply and totally error and has nothing to do with the Gospel of the grace of God as it was revealed to the body of Christ, by Paul the gentile apostle.





K

 

[Webb]

Welcome Kidron to the melee and thats what this is. I continue to invite any faith alone advocate (now including you) to a one on one discussion. Otherwise I have better fish to fry.

 

[Stan53]

I understand your point, and it's not that I want to argue predestination. But I don't think you're getting my point.

Let me back up just a moment, and see if you can grasp what I am saying. First and foremost, I do not believe baptism has to be pitted as a work, but I also believe that baptism is Christ's work in us.

Lets look at this passage.
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Not 'by' water, but 'through' the water. The Greek word is dia which means through, NOT because of. God saved them 'through' the water, 'by' the ark, just as we are saved through the water of baptism, BY the resurrection of Jesus Christ, v21.

This is talking about Noah's flood where 8 people were saved by water. Through obedience by water, they left the old world, and entered the new world.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
And we see how being baptized into Christ also saves us by the resurrection through a good conscience toward God again, leaving and old life, and entering a new life.

Again it is 'through' the water, by or because of the Ark. Just as we are saved through the water, because of Jesus Christ. The water didn't save Noah or us, it was the Ark and now it is Jesus.

Lets also look at this passage.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Again, we see the children of God being saved by water because they followed the cloud and again, they passed from the old life, to a new life. But moreso, a new life with God as the leading figure as they passed through the water.

I think the problem here is that you go into the scripture with a mindset of what it should say instead of what it does say. Paul was showing here that even though these people had been baptized into Moses through what they experienced 'under' the cloud and 'through' the sea, (they never actually submerged into the water) because of Moses, who was God's deliverer. Even though they did what Moses lead them to do, Paul says in verse 5, Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. So we see here it is more a true attitude of obedience and faith in God, than it is in outward signs.

There is much we could say about both passages, but the point I am making with these two passages is that they are both referred to as baptism by water that saves through the willingness and obedience of those actively passing from their old life, to their new life. I believe we could look at this as grace working through faith.

I think they both allude to different things. I can't even be sure if they are archetypal or not. To me they seem to indicate a comparison of how the OT way did NOT measure up.

Romans 6 paints a beautiful picture of being baptized in Christ. We go under the water, die and Christ does the rest of the work as we are raised with Christ in newness of life, just like Peter talks about when he mentions Noah, and just like Paul talks about when he mentions Moses.

Yes Romans 6 is great in that it really shows us the symbolism of what water baptism is. This is really a good reason to read it so we can understand what baptism is and how it confirms our confession of Jesus Christ as Saviour.

I would assume that you look at this argument as a works / grace perspective. In other words, baptism can't save because if it could, it would be considered a work, and we all know that we are saved by grace through faith for good works.

Not at all. I believe we are saved ONLY by confessing and accepting Jesus as our Saviour. I believe water baptism, baptism in the Holy Spirit and every other instruction in the NT is to cause us to grow in maturity and closeness to Jesus.
As Jesus Himself said in Matthew 3:15, "for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Look also at what Jesus said in Mark 1:15, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe in the good news!”
Note here, in these two verses, that Jesus did NOT make water baptism a condition of salvation. If it IS, then He most certainly would have.

I say that baptism is a natural response to the good news of Christ Jesus, not a "work" and that our faith is active and has tangible, measurable aspects that we can count on both now, and for the future.

I can't agree with 'natural' but it is an act of obedience to receiving the Good News and Christ. It is definitely NOT a work, it is an act of obedience because of our faith.

I also think that many view baptism as merely a rite, or passage into a club if I dare say so in such a blunt manner. Many people get baptized into a denomination as a ritualistic passage into that particular club, and at this point, it has nothing to do with salvation, and from this perspective, I'd argue all day long.

I agree, and as a person who was born and raised RC, I have experienced that first hand. Trust me, it didn't make me any more of a convert than my first communion of Confirmation did. Not until I actually accepted the Good News and Christ, was I born again and saved.

But when do we start shifting our focus away from the arguments and start focusing on God's word, and what is says so beautifully about baptism and it's Slavic role?

Again, water baptism has no Salvic role in our lives, ONLY Jesus does.

Acts 4:12; "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people, and we must be saved by it.”

Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...any faith alone advocate...

Which of the two meanings of 'faith alone' do you mean? Paul's 'faith, apart from works', or James' 'faith without works is dead' argument? You have to make that clear to him. They are indeed very different.

If you or anyone else can't get that much you just won't get the argument being leveled against the 'baptism saves' crowd as that is being argued here.

 

[Stormcrow]

No, it means you performed redundant acts. "One baptism". Your initial salvation happened when you were first baptized. You can lose your salvation, which means getting it back by obedience to Christ. Justification is a process...

So infant baptism alone saves?