Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: BCC ?

How can you say this when Cornelius was not saved that way. Your argument is immediately defeated by that.



But for Cornelius it was...

faith>>>>>>>saved (receiving of the Holy Spirit)
baptism>>>>>>>got wet in a public display of his pledge of a good conscience

So how can what you say be dogmatic, unbendable truth?

Cornelius was commanded to be water baptized, that command if for no other reason made water baptism essential to his salvation. Just as the Jews in Acts 2 were commanded to be water baptized, this is the like manner way in which Jew and Gentile are saved, Acts 15:11.

Peter said baptism saves not baptism is getting wet in a public display.
In Eph 2:8 Paul said the Ephesians were saved by faith.


Faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves



Furthermore, Cornelius was told to send for Peter and Peter would tell Cornelius what he ought to do, Acts 10:6 and in v35 Peter told Cornelius he would have to "work righteousness" to be accepted with God. Cornelius being baptized with the HG was nothing that Cornelius did but what God did. Cornelius did what he ought/worked righteousness when he submitted to the command to be baptized. He was not accepted with God until he was baptized.


Myself and many others I know have not been baptized with the HG. Does that mean we are lost? If so, then that is God's fault for failing to baptize me with the HG. Rom 1 says man is without excuse but I would have excuse based on God's failure to baptize me with the HG.

Yet from the bible baptism iwth the HG was a promise made to the aposltes, Acts 1:1-5, not me. I cannot obey a promise that was not made to me. BUt water baptism has been commanded meaning I have a responsibility to be baptized and if I am not then that is my fault and not God's.

But if you look in the scriptures there IS only one un-contradictory way to be saved...faith in Christ.

As it has been shown fromthe bible, faith includes baptism.

Eph 2:8---faith>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1Pet3:21 baptism>>>>>>>>>save

Only one way to be saved so faith MUST include baptism.





More?


Acts 2:41 says "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls."

Verse 44 says " And all that believed were together, and had all things common; "


So those that glady received Peter's words were baptized, those that rejected his words rejected baptism. So who were the ones that are said to have 'believed' in v44? The ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized so we have in verse 44 the word "believed" includes being baptized.

Not being baptized is the same as rejecting the gospel message Peter preached. Therefore one has not accepted the gospel until they have been baptized.

No. In context you'll see that Paul is talking very specifically about love for other people, not a generalized obedience to any and all of God's commands (by which you lump in baptism). And it is this exact same, very specific love that the others in the Bible talk about that matters in regard to faith in Christ. It's not a generalized 'obey all things he commanded to be saved' kind of counsel. It's a very matter of factly statement that the only obligatory manifestation of the faith that MUST accompany the faith that justifies is love (for others). That doesn't mean we can ignore everything else God commands. It means there is only one obedience that truly matters in regard to the only thing that justifies--faith in Christ apart from the merit of work accomplished.

The purpose of the book of Galatians were that they were lead astray by Judaizing teachers telling them they must be circumcised to be saved, read the first 6 verses of chapter 5. Paul simply tells them that what saves is faith which worketh by love and not being circumcised or uncircumcised. Note that faith is something that works and not a dead, workless faith only.


Parallel passages:

Gal 5:6----circumcision/uncircumciosn doe snot avail>>>>but faith that worketh.
1Cor7:19-circumcision/uncircumcion is nothing>>>>>>>>>but keeping the commands of God

We can see that 'faith which worketh by love" is equivalent to "keeping the commands of God" which includes being baptized. A faith whcih worketh by love is a faith which keeps the commandments of Christ, Jn 14:15 and Christ commanded to be baptized.

It's figurative, not literal. Just like women being 'saved' (or kept) through child bearing. It's what it represents that does the saving, but the figurative literary tool is used to say the child bearing itself saves the woman instead of the faith that produced the life of godly submission.

Nothing in the passage says it is figurative.

1pet3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
acts 2:38--baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remits sins

Baptism is where God removes the body of sins.

Right. No one ever got saved because they believed the right things about God (just ask your local demon). People get saved because they believe and trust in the forgiveness of God and are declared (made) righteous by that faith.

People cannot believe what ever they choose to and be saved. Belief and trust is a matter of correct doctrine.

If your doctrine leads you away from dependence and trust in Christ's forgiveness that is when doctrine condemns you. But sorting out the details of the facts about the faith, all the while trusting and depending on the forgiveness of God, does not condemn a person. If that were not true we'd all be condemned where we stand.

Again, belief and trust along with repentance, confession and baptism are all matters of correct doctrine of Christ. When the Galatians were lead into error by the Judiazing teachers, twice Paul asked them why they quit obeying the truth. Obedience to the truth/correct doctrine is totally necessary in being saved. Salvation is not a free-for -all where you believe whatever you choose to and be saved.

Which do you mean? Faith that doesn't have with it the obedience of 'love your neighbor as yourself' is a faith that if all by itself in this way can not save you as James teaches that? Or do you mean in regard to faith being the sole agent all by itself by which a person is made (declared) righteous before God as Paul teaches us that?

You HAVE to be specific about which one you're talking about. They are different and can not be lumped together as if 'faith alone' means one and the same argument.

As James said, faith only is dead being void of works. Nowhere does the NT teach that a faith void of obedience to God justifies. Paul never taught such a thing. In Rom 6 Paul said the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine then they were freed from sins (justified). Paul did not teach what you claim he did.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

(So was he saved by words, or was he saved by the faith those words inspired?)

The Holy Spirit is the sign and seal and evidence of being in Christ. He had that before his water baptism. The Holy Spirit is the sign of his salvation, just as it is for me and you. It's wrong to say the Bible says you can ONLY receive that sign at and through water baptism.

The context says "Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.", acts 11:14. Those words require faith but without those words there would be no faith, Rom 10:14-17.


Now where in the context of Acts 10 or 11 does it say Cornelius would be saved by being baptized with the HS? What verse says baptism with the HS saves?remits sins?

From Acts 11, the HG fell upon Cornelius before he heard those saving words, before he worked righteousness and was accepted with God. You have Cornelius being saved beofre he was saved. His being bpatized with the HS had nothing to do with his personal salvation. In the context, God (1) sent an angel to Cornelius telling him to send for Peter, (2) sent a vision to Peter (3) baptized the Gentiles with the HS. These things were done by God to prove to the Jews that the salvation of the gospel did not belong to the Jews only but to the Gentiles also. And the result of these things done by God is seen in Acts 11:18 "When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

Hmmm...another figure of speech about what saves. I get it, but do you?

Nothing in the context says its figurative.

He heard enough to have faith and be saved. That's all we know. And we know that because God sealed him as his very own as evidenced by the Holy Spirit.

As Peter began to speak those saving words, Peter only began to speak. Cornelius had not yet heard those saving words, he had not done what he ought to do, he had not worked righteousness to be accepted with God.


Let me ask, in what verse in Acts 10 do you think Cornelius was saved?

The Holy Spirit is the SIGN of salvation, the seal of God's ownership (2 Corinthians 1 thereabouts?). Cornelius has that sign before his water baptism.

Baptism with the HS occurs only twice in the NT, the apostles in Acts 2 and Conrelius in Acts 10 and neither instance did have anything to do with salvation. It was the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy and that prophecy was fulfilled 2000 years ago making that baptism obsolete. Therefore baptism with the HS was not the "like manner" way the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in acts 10 were saved for baptism with the HS does not save/remit sins, but water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins is what saves.

You have yet to show the verse(s) that says baptism with the HS saves/remits sins and this baptism with the HS is the like manner way the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Reading the Greek, that's what Peter said. I didn't inject "purpose of" into what Peter said. It's what Peter said.

In the Greek Peter said baptism saves.

Peter said baptism noW saves, some try and change the "w" in the word now to a "t".

Aside, it's just remarkable to me that the metaphor of baptism in Greek is so strikingly neglected from every discussion. "baptism" is a Greek word for "death", that undertone grants insights to every epistle, and indeed to the death of Christ.

baptizo literally means an immersion.

whew, so now flood water is not the type for baptism. mmm. Flood waters don't clean diddly. Peter is referring in both cases to baptism, not the water that cleanses, but as baptism requires, the answer in good conscience toward God.

The OT type is 8 souls saved by WATER. So the NT type is used saved by WATER baptism. That killed your 'dry baptism' theory you proposed earlier.

The flood water cleansed the earth of the filth of the flesh. Yet water baptism is not for cleasing away filth but water baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. Again, in Acts 2 Peter convicted his listeners with the sin of murdering the Messiah so much so they were 'pricked in their heart" and asked Peter what must they do. What was the "answer" Peter gave them for their conscience of sin? Be baptized for remission of sins. Having sins remitted would erase that guilty conscience of sin.

Does something God says, matter? It does matter that Peter doesn't use the word. And so Peter's meaning doesn't demand "by". The connection Peter mentions is readily different from what's described.

It does not matter what word translators used, 'by' or 'through' still proves my point. The OT type was 8 souls saved by/through WATER and the mirror reflection/anti-type is us by saved by/through water baptism.

"not the cleansing of dirt from the body" -- people have long tried to find a way to change the simple fact Peter stated here. Water isn't the point. Conscientious response to God through the resurrection of Christ is the point.

Water is the very thing Peter is talking about inthe context.

He just said 8 souls were saved by WATER and the NT antitype is us being saved by WATER baptism....those in the OT were saved by WATER and us under the NT are saved by WATER. Then in the parenthesis Peter explains the difference between these two waters that save. The saving water of baptism is not for cleansing the filth of the flesh as the flood water did but the water of baptism is the answer of a good conscience for water baptism remits sins and the flood waters could not remit sins.

People try hard to misunderstand something so simple.

That's simply not the case. Repentance does result in God's remittance of sins.

46 “If they sin against you— for there is no one who does not sin—and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near, 47 yet if they turn their heart in the land to which they have been carried captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors, saying, ‘We have sinned and have acted perversely and wickedly,’ 48 if they repent with all their mind and with all their heart in the land of their enemies, who carried them captive, and pray to you toward their land, which you gave to their fathers, the city that you have chosen, and the house that I have built for your name, 49 then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause 50 and forgive your people who have sinned against you, and all their transgressions that they have committed against you, and grant them compassion in the sight of those who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them 51 ( for they are your people, and your heritage, which you brought out of Egypt, from the midst of the iron furnace). 1 Kings 8:46-51

I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6 therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes. Job 42:5-6

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Mt 4:17

There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? 3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Lk 13:1-5

"Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” Lk 15:10

"Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things." Lk 24:46-48

In Acts 2:38 peter commanded them to repent AND be bpatized. The conjunction 'and' shows that repentance and baptism are two different things.

You quote Lk 24:47 "that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations,"
Peter preached repentance and he preached "forgiveness of sins, when he told them to be baptized for remission of sins.

One has to have his sins washed away by the blood of Christ, Rev 1:5. Christ shed that blood that washes away sin in His death, Jn 19:34. So I must have access to His death where His blood was shed for it to wash away my sins and baptism, not repentance, is how I gain access into Christ's death, Rom 6:3-6. Nowhere does repentance put one in Christ's death. Col 2:11ff it is when one is buried in baptism that God does the operation/work of removing the body of sin, not at repentance.

 

[Eventide]

For by one SPIRIT are we BAPTIZED into ONE BODY...

Baptism with the HS occurs only twice in the NT, the apostles in Acts 2 and Conrelius in Acts 10 and neither instance did have anything to do with salvation.

The Apostle to the Gentiles tells us exactly how each member is saved and placed into the body of Christ, and it's by His Spirit..

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Paul says the same thing in Eph 1...

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is it possible that some people who read this verse, " He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes NOT shall be damned"....are not paying attention to the context?

Did anyone notice the context of the "damned" person in that verse.
Its BELIEVING OR NOT......that saves or damns.
Not, Believing and being baptised or not".
Read the verse, and dont omit the context as the 2nd part gives the context.

And why the fascination with Peter?
Peter was not the person who was given the revelation of the Gospel of the Grace of God.
This is why he is preaching the Jewish, House of Israel, John the Baptist, repentance/be baptised message in Acts 2:38.
This is why by Acts 15, Peter is no longer preaching the Jewish, John the Baptist< repentance/be baptised message found in Acts 2:38.
And the reason is, by that time, PAUL was here and the Gospel of the Grace of God was now realized by all the Jewish apostles who came to understand
the Grace of God, after Paul came around with the doctrine.

Paul is your "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law"...Theologian.
Paul is your, "in Christ" , theologian.
Paul is the person who in Galations tells you that any other gospel other then HIS, should be cursed of God and that the person preaching any other gospel then his, should also be cursed of God...
So be careful that you understand exactly what Romans 3-5 and Galatians are explaining about "faith alone", as he describes it.
Paul is the person Jesus took into the desert and personally revealed the gospel of Grace without works and without anything, including water baptism.

And did you notice Acts 2:21 and Acts 16:31?
These are the verses you use to give context to Acts 2:38.

And do you know that Peter said that what Paul wrote is Scripture?
He said that Paul's theology is Scripture....2nd Peter 3:16
So, even Peter recognized the authority of the revelation that Paul had for the Body of Christ.
And in Peter's day, there was no New Testament.
He only had the Old, or the "Torah", and he is proclaiming that Paul's theology is equal to the Torah.
So, when you want to understand bible doctrine, especially regarding the revelation of the Grace of God >that was not being preached in Acts 2:38<, then you go directly to Paul, as he is the person Jesus personally revealed the doctrine of justification by faith alone without the Jewish water ritual as necessary FOR salvation, but required as symbolic obedience in that it represents your old man dying and your new man being resurrected.
Water baptism symbolically identifies you as, "in Christ".

Read Acts 8, and notice Phillip and the Ethiopian.
He gives the proper steps regarding salvation and then water., (8:37)

Water cannot impute the righteousness of God to your account.
Only God can do this, and he does it based on your receiving his Son as your sin bearer.
Water cannot bear your sins, nor can it wash them away.
""What can wash away my sins, nothing but water bap-tis......um"
Not quite...2
You have to have righteous blood SHED as the means to forgive and pardon..
Notice the scripture does not say....."without the shedding of water baptism, there is no remission of Sins"....Hebrews 9:22



K

In Mk 16:16a Jesus made belief a prerequsite to being baptized therefore one that does not believe cannot be baptzed. So when Jesus said in Mk 16;16b "He that beliveth not" the pharse "believeth not" already includes baptized not.

An old example of what Jesus said in Mk 16:16:

He that eateth and digesteth his food shall live,
he that eateth not shall die.


One has to first eat then digest so eating is a prerequsite to digesting. Therefore when Jesus said 'he that eateth not" that includes digesting not for one cannot digest what he has not eaten. It would be pointless and redundant to say "he that eateth not and digesteth not the food he did not eat shall die".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

Sorry, I seem to have lost track of this thread.

Yes there are many salvic verses and ALL need to be used. However, Jesus also said in Matthew 10:32, “Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven."
The confession is done OUT of faith, NOT in addition to. Water baptism is done OUT of faith, NOT in addition to. You turn ON a light switch OUT of faith that the light WILL go on. If you didn't have faith in your house's electrical system, you wouldn't even bother flipping the switch.

I think it only proper, that when you say, the Bible says something, that you quote from where it says that. I don't recognize this assertion you made, that FAITH ALONE DOES NOT JUSTIFY.

Confession is part of faith that saves. Faith void of this is dead and will not save.

James said faith only is dead..man is not justified by faith only.

You say faith only justifies.

I'll go with James on this one.

The idea of faith only nullifies the need to confess. If confession is necessary to being saved, [and it is] then salvation is by faith + confession not by faith only for that would exclude confession. The word 'alone' is exclusionary, it excludes everything else so saying one is saved by faith alone excludes everything else from salvtion including confession, grace, Christ's blood, repentance, etc, etc.

People have said they are saved by grace alone through faith alone. This statement is totally contradictory. Again, alone is an exlcuisonary word so if one is saved by grace alone then that excludes faith. But if one is saved by faith alone then that excludes grace. If Faith and Grace were the name of two women, how can I be married to Grace alone and Faith alone at the same time? It would be impossible. And the whole idea of salvation by grace alone through faith alone is an impossible contradiction.


So if you continue to say you are saved by faith alone then the word alone excludes grace, repentance, confession, the blood of Christ, etc. If you come back and say grace and the blood of Christ are part of salvation then you just killed your faith only arguement for you no longer have faith alone but faith PLUS grace PLUS the blood of Christ PLUS confession, etc.

I can show you verses that say faith saves, baptism saves, the word of God saves, grace saves, hope saves among many other things that are said to save. Not one of these things alone saves but it takes a combination of all them to save. To say that any one of these ALONE saves excludes all the others from salvation. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: For by one SPIRIT are we BAPTIZED into ONE BODY...

The Apostle to the Gentiles tells us exactly how each member is saved and placed into the body of Christ, and it's by His Spirit..

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Paul says the same thing in Eph 1...

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In 1 Cor 1:14,16 Paul baptized some of the Corinthians himself. Only God can baptize with the HS, Paul being a human and under the great commission would have adminsitered water baptism as only humans can. Since there is one bpatism, Eph 4:5 1 Cor 12:13 would be the same baptism Paul baptized the Coritnians with, human administered water baptism of the great commisson. 1 Cor 12;13 is the Corinthians being born again per Jesus words of jn 3:5:

Jn 3:5------------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13--------Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body


In the kingdom and in the body are equivalent terms, both represent being saved. Since there is just one way to be saved both verses MUST express the same idea meaning that it takes the Spirit and water baptism to be saved/in the kingdom/in the body. The Spirit does not baptize Himself but has authorized disciples, as Paul, to go, teach and water baptize.

 

[Stan53]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

Confession is part of faith that saves. Faith void of this is dead and will not save.

James said faith only is dead..man is not justified by faith only.

You say faith only justifies.

I'll go with James on this one.

The idea of faith only nullifies the need to confess. If confession is necessary to being saved, [and it is] then salvation is by faith + confession not by faith only for that would exclude confession. The word 'alone' is exclusionary, it excludes everything else so saying one is saved by faith alone excludes everything else from salvtion including confession, grace, Christ's blood, repentance, etc, etc.

People have said they are saved by grace alone through faith alone. This statement is totally contradictory. Again, alone is an exlcuisonary word so if one is saved by grace alone then that excludes faith. But if one is saved by faith alone then that excludes grace. If Faith and Grace were the name of two women, how can I be married to Grace alone and Faith alone at the same time? It would be impossible. And the whole idea of salvation by grace alone through faith alone is an impossible contradiction.


So if you continue to say you are saved by faith alone then the word alone excludes grace, repentance, confession, the blood of Christ, etc. If you come back and say grace and the blood of Christ are part of salvation then you just killed your faith only arguement for you no longer have faith alone but faith PLUS grace PLUS the blood of Christ PLUS confession, etc.

I can show you verses that say faith saves, baptism saves, the word of God saves, grace saves, hope saves among many other things that are said to save. Not one of these things alone saves but it takes a combination of all them to save. To say that any one of these ALONE saves excludes all the others from salvation. You cannot have it both ways.

James is NOT talking about Faith for Salvation. He is talking about faith PRODUCING works in our daily walk. If you really can't see that then I'm afraid we have nothing more to talk about.
I'm NOT going to repeat myself. You choosing to ignore it doesn't negate it.
All your words here have no Biblical support, even though I clearly asked for it, so I have no choice but to ignore this post...it's all your logic, NOT God's Word.

 

[Asyncritus]

There is something that God and Jesus require of us, that has not been mentioned up till now in any significant way.

It's this:

OBEDIENCE.

Here is Jesus' COMMAND, or ORDER if you prefer.

19 Go ye therefore [GET OUT THERE YOU GUYS], and teach all nations [JEW AND GENTILE ALIKE], baptizing them [ALL] in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

You will notice the tone of the remark. There are NO optional extras being offered. This is a COMMAND, a LAW IF YOU LIKE.

An ORDER must be OBEYED, and the disciples did exactly that.

This ORDER is two-fold:

1 Teach all nations - that He is the Christ, who God raised from the dead.

2 BAPTIZE all nations - into His saving Name

Note carefully that they are to baptise in THE NAME OF the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

They are not to baptise IN the Holy Spirit. That is something else altogether, that IS NOT PRESENT IN THIS COMMAND.

and the third part now follows:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

and show them that they must obey the commands I have given you.

Those commands, incidentally, include the 'teach all nations, BAPTIZING them in the name...'

The apostles had to do it, and those they taught had to do exactly the same thing.

And that COMMAND STANDS right here before us THIS MINUTE, in our time. Believe and be baptised.

Requiring OBEDIENCE.

 

[stovebolts]

In the context being used previously, I understand what he is saying. Works, deeds, are necessary for our WALK in Christ, NOT our salvation. Salvation is by FAITH alone. Eph 2:8

Says you... Our walk / relationship with Jesus is what saves us.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

You guys talk like salvation is something that happens once you die... like heaven is a destination, not a journey. Eat, drink, live the way you like.. just believe... Believe what? That we are supposed to live a certain way, but we don't actually have to live that way? What kind of faith does it take to say that lieing, or cheating is wrong, but yet turn around and lie, or cheat? No, our faith was meant to be active.. it's a saving faith as much for today, as it is for the rest of eternity.

There is a think called heaven on earth, and salvation includes being saved from yourself at times. What we do, is as important as what we believe. When you and others minimize what we do by what we believe, you water down scripture, including baptism.

 

[Stan53]

Says you... Our walk / relationship with Jesus is what saves us.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

You guys talk like salvation is something that happens once you die... like heaven is a destination, not a journey. Eat, drink, live the way you like.. just believe... Believe what? That we are supposed to live a certain way, but we don't actually have to live that way? What kind of faith does it take to say that lieing, or cheating is wrong, but yet turn around and lie, or cheat? No, our faith was meant to be active.. it's a saving faith as much for today, as it is for the rest of eternity.

There is a think called heaven on earth, and salvation includes being saved from yourself at times. What we do, is as important as what we believe. When you and others minimize what we do by what we believe, you water down scripture, including baptism.

No, says God's word. What Paul talks about in Eph 2:10 is what God does as Paul also taught in Romans 8:29-30; 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. This predestining comes AFTER Salvation, NOT before.

 

[Stormcrow]

I've been baptised 3 times in my life: once as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, once as a 12 year-old in the American Baptist Church, and once as a 30-something in another American Baptist Church.

If baptism saves, does this mean I've been saved 3 times?

 

[Kidron]

[/I][/B]This predestining comes AFTER Salvation, NOT before.

To be more specific.
Its predestined according to foreknowledge..

now to explain this simply..

God has advanced knowledge, its called "fore"...
in other words, before the thing happens God already knew it would.

So, he already KNEW who is going to be saved, "predestined", based on knowing beforehand everything that happens., and he calls this group his "elect".

This is why he speaks of "knowing you" before you were in your mother's womb.

Where some get confused is by misapplying "foreknowledge" and trying to make it say..."CAUSED".

So, we understand that for God to know a thing before it happens, is not the same as causing it to happen.





be blessed,



K

 

[Kidron]

I've been baptised 3 times in my life: once as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, once as a 12 year-old in the American Baptist Church, and once as a 30-something in another American Baptist Church.

If baptism saves, does this mean I've been saved 3 times?

It means that your church strictly and directly associates water with salvation.
Do you?
Jesus doesn't.
He associates faith with salvation, not water.

"as many as received him (by faith) to them he gave the power to become the sons of God."

Jesus said if you dont believe that he is the only means for salvation......that is to say, the only way to be saved, you will die in your sins, unforgiven.

So, the problem is , application.

For example, You have some denominations that preach that the gospel is "water baptism to be saved".

But then you have the Apostle Paul who gave you the revelation of the grace of God that is offered as a free gift., that is to say, the very righteousness of God is offered in place of your sins, and according to Paul,...Jesus told him, that a person gets this solution for sin, this pardon for transgressions, by FAITH, and not by water baptism.

So, right there, is the dividing line between heresy and gospel truth regarding HOW to become born again.

Paul explains this using Abraham, ...and says that righteousness came to him "not by works of the law", but by Faith.

Paul says that the Jews are very devout, but not according to knowledge,.... in that they have refused the grace of God that comes by believing in Jesus, and instead try to reunite with God according to THEIR traditions, which leaves them lost.....Romans 9:31,32

You have to understand that water baptism is a work.......its an effort, its something YOU DO........and salvation is something YOU DONT DO< but rather its something that JESUS DID FOR YOU.

So, in Christianity, the bottom line regarding salvation, is very simple.
Its,.. how do you receive the pardon for sins and how do you keep it.
The answer is, as soon as you try any other method then Faith in the finished work of the Cross to save you and to keep you saved, then you have fallen from the Grace of God unto another gospel, according to Paul.

So, a Christian needs to ask themselves this question, so they can understand what they are really counting on to save them..
Which is.......what are you counting on to save you?
Are you counting on Water Baptism?
Then you are not counting on Jesus are you?
Are you counting on living a good life according to the bible?
Then you are not counting on Jesus to save you, you are counting on your behavior., and so you are not trusting in Christ alone.

You have to realize yourself and your faith and what you are actually trusting to get you into heaven.
And if its any other means, way, effort, or process, other then Faith in Christ Alone, without water baptism and without any kind of "holy" lifestyle, then you are not really trusting in the only WAY that God provided you to get his righteousness.

Find out what you are trusting, and if its not Faith in Christ alone, then you need to fix this asap.





K

 

[Asyncritus]

o, a Christian needs to ask themselves this question, so they can understand what they are really counting on to save them..
Which is.......what are you counting on to save you?
Are you counting on Water Baptism?
Then you are not counting on Jesus are you?
Are you counting on living a good life according to the bible?
Then you are not counting on Jesus to save you, you are counting on your behavior., and so you are not trusting in Christ alone.

Obedience is the thing God requires above all else.

Why are you separating the two things - faith and baptism?

He that believeth AND is baptised shall be saved.

He that BELIEVETH NOT and is baptised shall NOT be saved.

He that believeth NOT and IS NOT baptised shall NOT be saved.

He that believeth and is NOT baptised might be saved or not. Depending on his answer to the question 'Why were you NOT baptised?'

Jesus said it very clearly:

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Mt 28.18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Therefore, He is not one to play games with.

Here is His COMMAND/ ORDER:

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Including baptizing them.

 

[dadof10]

to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

It's the sole operative way God marks-out those who are saved.

Of course it's tautologically how He marks-out believers. Faith is belief.

I'm saying God changes hearts, and that heart of faith is what leads God to consider us righteous before Him: not works (cf Rom 4:5 above).

We're talking about requirements for a purpose: the purpose is for salvation.

Our good works are required for other purposes. Not salvation.

Eph 2:8-10 says this very precisely.

The verses you cite are both in reference to the Jewish law, specifically circumcision.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Paul is actually contrasting "works" of the law with "good works". He goes on with his contrast of faith vs works of the law...

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.

Every time Paul contrasts faith and works it's in the context of the Law, specifically circumcision. He is not talking about good deeds, but works of the law. Acts 15 records the major heresy of the time and this is what Paul is responding to.

 

[stovebolts]

No, says God's word. What Paul talks about in Eph 2:10 is what God does as Paul also taught in Romans 8:29-30; 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. This predestining comes AFTER Salvation, NOT before.

I understand your point, and it's not that I want to argue predestination. But I don't think you're getting my point.

Let me back up just a moment, and see if you can grasp what I am saying. First and foremost, I do not believe baptism has to be pitted as a work, but I also believe that baptism is Christ's work in us.

Lets look at this passage.
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is talking about Noah's flood where 8 people were saved by water. Through obedience by water, they left the old world, and entered the new world.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

And we see how being baptized into Christ also saves us by the resurrection through a good conscience toward God again, leaving and old life, and entering a new life.

Lets also look at this passage.
1 Corinthians 10:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Again, we see the children of God being saved by water because they followed the cloud and again, they passed from the old life, to a new life. But moreso, a new life with God as the leading figure as they passed through the water.

There is much we could say about both passages, but the point I am making with these two passages is that they are both refered to as baptism by water that saves through the willingness and obedience of those actively passing from their old life, to their new life. I believe we could look at this as grace working through faith.

Romans 6 paints a beautiful picture of being baptized in Christ. We go under the water, die and Christ does the rest of the work as we are raised with Christ in newness of life, just like Peter talks about when he mentions Noah, and just like Paul talks about when he mentions Moses.

I would assume that you look at this argument as a works / grace perspective. In other words, baptism can't save because if it could, it would be considered a work, and we all know that we are saved by grace through faith for good works.

I say that baptism is a natural response to the good news of Christ Jesus, not a "work" and that our faith is active and has tangible, measurable aspects that we can count on both now, and for the future.

I also think that many view baptism as meerly a rite, or passage into a club if I dare say so in such a blunt manner. Many people get baptized into a denomination as a ritualistic passage into that particular club, and at this point, it has nothing to do with salvation, and from this perspective, I'd argue all day long.

But when do we start shifting our focus away from the arguments and start focusing on God's word, and what is says so beautifully about baptism and it's salvific role?

 

[dadof10]

If this verse meant our righteousness awaited us in the future, then it would contradict Romans 4:4-5. Plus, Romans 5:1 starts on the assumption that we have been justified by faith -- not future, but past.

It doesn't contradict if justification is properly looked at as a process instead of a one time event. Scripture speaks of past, present and future salvation.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life." (2 Cor. 2:15)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12)

These three verses clearly show Paul believed salvation was ongoing.

Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 Not (Rom. 5:9–10)

Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
(1 Cor. 3:12–15)

These two show salvation as being an event in the future.

Romans 4 deals with justification by faith, not works of the law. It doesn't contrast faith with good deeds, which effect salvation.

 

[dadof10]

Says you... Our walk / relationship with Jesus is what saves us.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

You guys talk like salvation is something that happens once you die... like heaven is a destination, not a journey. Eat, drink, live the way you like.. just believe... Believe what? That we are supposed to live a certain way, but we don't actually have to live that way? What kind of faith does it take to say that lieing, or cheating is wrong, but yet turn around and lie, or cheat? No, our faith was meant to be active.. it's a saving faith as much for today, as it is for the rest of eternity.

There is a think called heaven on earth, and salvation includes being saved from yourself at times. What we do, is as important as what we believe. When you and others minimize what we do by what we believe, you water down scripture, including baptism.

Well said...

 

[dadof10]

I've been baptised 3 times in my life: once as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, once as a 12 year-old in the American Baptist Church, and once as a 30-something in another American Baptist Church.

If baptism saves, does this mean I've been saved 3 times?

No, it means you performed redundant acts. "One baptism". Your initial salvation happened when you were first baptized. You can lose your salvation, which means getting it back by obedience to Christ. Justification is a process...