Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[D4Christ]

D4Christ---It seems your problem in part at least is you do not understand in your reading of the scripture that faith or belief is sometimes used in the general sense and at other times in the specific. Try to "rightly divide the word of truth" as Paul tells us to do and many of your misunderstands will vanish.

I think my understanding is clear thank you. Romans 10 says what it means and means what it says. Try rightly diving that. There is no basis to suggest that Romans 10 is being general....it has very specific instructions on what to do to be saved. This is why Paul and Silas told the man in prison to believe in order to be saved. Once they "heard" and accepted the Word preached to them they were saved. Then they were baptized to as pledge to their salvation. That is also why 1 Peter 3 says baptism is a "pledge" (a strong desire) of a clear conscience to God but not the removal of sin.

John explains why we should be baptized in Luke 3,

Then John went from place to place on both sides of the Jordan River, preaching that people should be baptized to show that they had repented of their sins and turned to God to be forgiven.

This is why baptism should follow for those saved by their belief in the Good News.

I'm just glad for the sake of prisoners and invalids around the world (who hear the Good New thru God's dedicated soldiers and missionaries who share it with them), and who are unable to have a water baptism that they know that by believing in their heart and confessing with their mouth they are SAVED!

Lest all these people should perish according your logic.....

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[stovebolts]

Dee,

There is an early writing called the didache. Some believe it was written by the apostles themselves. It says,

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lightfoot.html

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before.

Again, we don't see a rigid set of rules here. We see discernment. As I said to Reba earlier, the Torah taught a Jew discernment, not rigidity.

In the case of baptism, you can see how it would be permissible for baptism, under the right situation to be poured over ones head.

I understand that this kicks in the face of some current doctrines. But it does teach us that we can't view baptism or how it's performed as a line in the sand.

 

[zeke]

This is why baptism should follow for those saved by their belief in the Good News.

Can you please show what version of the Good News you use that renders Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is saved shall be baptized if he can find enough water"? I am not familiar with such a version. All English versions I read have correctly rendered that passage as, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". You cannot change God's word just to fit your sectarian biases - can you?

 

[D4Christ]

Can you please show what version of the Good News you use that renders Mark 16:16, "He who believes and is saved shall be baptized if he can find enough water"? I am not familiar with such a version. All English versions I read have correctly rendered that passage as, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". You cannot change God's word just to fit your sectarian biases - can you?

And you cannot change or deny Romans 10 to fit your biases - can you? What about other verses that state it is the Good News that saves us. What version of the Good News from God includes Baptism. Or does Mark 16 render all of the other multitude of verses that speak of being saved by belief thru hearing the Good News obsolete?

Why don't you address those passages.

It doesn't really matter though. What matters is that people understand that they are saved thru confession and belief and that they will not be dammned for not recieving a water baptism. As the scriptures state, damanation comes from unbelief.

Your brand of salvation condemns many people to hell.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 10:



You say you must believe and be baptized to be saved. Scriptures plainly state that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Who's report should we believe?

Blessings,
Dee

Calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said to do..."And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Lk 6:46. And the Lord said to be baptized, Mk 16:16, so calling on the name of the Lord means to be baptized.

In Acts 2:21 Peter quoted a prophecy of Joel and that prophecy was fufilled in v38:

Acts 2:21----call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Acts 2:38----repent and be baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remission of sins


"Saved" and "remission of sins" are equvalent terms. Since there is but only one way to be saved, 'calling upon the name of the Lord' means and includes repentance and being baptized. As when Paul was baptized he was callling upon the name of the Lord, Acts 22:16.



Rom 10:13------call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Rom 10:10-------believe and confess>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unto righteousness/salvation


Again, "saved" and "unto righteousness/salvation" are equivalent terms. Since there is just one way to be saved that means calling upon the name of the Lord means and includes believing and confessing with the mouth.


Combining what Peter and Paul said we have:


call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>save
believe, repent, confess, baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/remission of sins/righteousness


So calling upon the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord has said and the Lord has said to believe, repent, confess and be baptized, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:15,16.

 

[zeke]

And you cannot change or deny Romans 10 to fit your biases - can you?

But there is nothing written in Romans 10 that contradicts what is written in Mark 16 - the Bible does not contradict itself. Faith, repentance and baptism are required for one to be saved per Holy Writ.

What about other verses that state it is the Good News that saves us.

Actually, it is the blood of Christ that completely and finally saves our souls. The promise of salvation is to those who "obey from the heart" the gospel of grace and that gospel has always included the doctrine that belief, repentance and baptism are to take place before one "shall be saved".

But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
(Rom 6:17 NKJV)​

What version of the Good News from God includes Baptism. Or does Mark 16 render all of the other multitude of verses that speak of being saved by belief thru hearing the Good News obsolete?

All version I have read include the command from God for the believer to be baptized in water "for the remission of sins".

Why don't you address those passages.

What passage do you want to discuss that you think negates God's requirement to be baptized in water? You're up.

What matters is that people understand that they are saved thru confession and belief and that they will not be dammned for not recieving a water baptism. As the scriptures state, damanation comes from unbelief.

Again - the promise of salvation per Jesus goes to the one who believes, repents and is baptized. The one who disbelieves is condemned already. You cannot change God's word to fit your biases. You may not like it but baptism is in the Book and it is there because God put it there.

Your brand of salvation condemns many people to hell.

The word of God is what it is and the essential nature of baptism is from the mind of God - it is not from man. You can ignore it if you wish but you do so at your own peril. The advice from God's word to those who will be His children remains...

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
(Act 22:16 NKJV)​

 

[MarkT]

That's not what Peter said. Please see above post to Reba.

Read Peter’s letter. Context is everything. Trials - while you may have to suffer through various trials (not by various trials but through various trials), abstaining from the passions of the flesh, suffering for righteousness sake, he bore our sins so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. In that context, water represents a trial. Like Noah and his family went through the flood and so were saved. Saved how? Saved by obedience and faith in God. You have to keep in mind what Peter is saying and keep that thought as you read the whole letter, not just one line. Water represents an ordeal - the death of the flesh and the new life in the spirit.

What does he say earlier? ‘Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren’, and ‘You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.’ 1 Pet. 1:22,23

So it is by faith and the word of God that we are born anew. And before that he says, ‘As the outcome of your faith you obtain salvation of your souls.’ 1 Pet. 1:9

As far as water baptism goes, I do think it prepares us for the word of God. Surely repentance and confession come before forgiveness. But Peter says baptism saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It’s not that we go through Noah’s baptism; the flood was more like Noah’s baptism. It’s that we go through Jesus’ baptism; his death and his resurrection. If we suffer for doing what is right and take it patiently, we have God’s approval. 1 Pet. 2:20 ‘We have been born anew through a living hope in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.’ 1 Pet. 1:3

The question still remains and arises, who has the authority to baptize when the church has gone astray and everyone has gone after false teachers? If I was to go to your church, who would be baptizing who?

Remember the prophetic word -

I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?" Luke 18:8

And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Mt. 24:22

Sadly the answer to the first question is probably very little, as the second teaching suggests, we are going through some heavy water. Matthew 7:24 RSV
"Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; Matthew 7:25 RSV
and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

Let’s pray God shortens the days of this tribulation.

 

[MarkT]

I would like to add one more thing. Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer for a reason. I know it clears my conscience. I hope you pray it daily.

 

[MarkT]

One thing I understand about water baptism is God speaks in images, through dreams which are images, and then through his Son who was his image. So by water baptism we are sending an image to God. However, this image must be understood. It's what you have in your mind that is what is sent. If you don't understand, be careful, your words may come back to condemn you. It's been a long time since the disciples were sent out to baptize. Things have changed. No one understands. Beware lest you be found not truly baptized in the eyes of God and you condemn yourself as you condemn others.

 

[zeke]

The question still remains and arises, who has the authority to baptize when the church has gone astray and everyone has gone after false teachers? If I was to go to your church, who would be baptizing who?

Not everyone has 'gone after false teachers'. There is but one church - the Lord's church - Jesus said "I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it". Christians are a "chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God". Any Christian can baptize the repenting believer who confesses that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
(Act 8:35-38 NKJV)​

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Read Peter’s letter. Context is everything. Trials - while you may have to suffer through various trials (not by various trials but through various trials), abstaining from the passions of the flesh, suffering for righteousness sake, he bore our sins so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. In that context, water represents a trial. Like Noah and his family went through the flood and so were saved. Saved how? Saved by obedience and faith in God. You have to keep in mind what Peter is saying and keep that thought as you read the whole letter, not just one line. Water represents an ordeal - the death of the flesh and the new life in the spirit.

What does he say earlier? ‘Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren’, and ‘You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.’ 1 Pet. 1:22,23

So it is by faith and the word of God that we are born anew. And before that he says, ‘As the outcome of your faith you obtain salvation of your souls.’ 1 Pet. 1:9

As far as water baptism goes, I do think it prepares us for the word of God. Surely repentance and confession come before forgiveness. But Peter says baptism saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It’s not that we go through Noah’s baptism; the flood was more like Noah’s baptism. It’s that we go through Jesus’ baptism; his death and his resurrection. If we suffer for doing what is right and take it patiently, we have God’s approval. 1 Pet. 2:20 ‘We have been born anew through a living hope in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.’ 1 Pet. 1:3

The question still remains and arises, who has the authority to baptize when the church has gone astray and everyone has gone after false teachers? If I was to go to your church, who would be baptizing who?

Remember the prophetic word -

I tell you, he will vindicate them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will he find faith on earth?" Luke 18:8

And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. Mt. 24:22

Sadly the answer to the first question is probably very little, as the second teaching suggests, we are going through some heavy water. Matthew 7:24 RSV
"Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; Matthew 7:25 RSV
and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.

Let’s pray God shortens the days of this tribulation.

Yes, 1 Pet 1:22 is a reference to the new birth per Jesus' words to Nicodemus in Jn 3:5.

1 Pet 1:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:"


Jn 3:5------------Spirit+++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1pet1:22---------Spirit++++++++++++obeying the truth>>>purified your souls
1Cor12:13--------SPirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Ghost+++++++++washing of reg.>>>>saved

Since there is only one way to be saved/in the kingdom/in the body/purified soul, all these verses MUST express the same idea. So "obeying the truth" in 1 Pet 1:22 is a reference to obeying by submitting to water baptism/water/washing of regeneration.

Peter said you have purified your souls. In Acts 2:40 Peter told them to "save yourselves". How then does one purify his own soul or save himself. I cannot purify my soul by myself nor can I save myself by myself. But I can purify my soul or save myself in the sense by choosing to obey the command to be water baptized for remission of sins. This is why Peter said purifying of the soul came as a result of "obeying the truth". The truth is the gospel of Christ, the gospel of Christ commands baptism for remission of sins, so obeying the gospel of Christ means obeying the command to be baptized. It is impossible to have a purified soul without obedience/WORK.

 

[zeke]

One thing I understand about water baptism is God speaks in images, through dreams which are images, and then through his Son who was his image. So by water baptism we are sending an image to God. However, this image must be understood. It's what you have in your mind that is what is sent. If you don't understand, be careful, your words may come back to condemn you. It's been a long time since the disciples were sent out to baptize. Things have changed. No one understands. Beware lest you be found not truly baptized in the eyes of God and you condemn yourself as you condemn others.

There is nothing new under the sun my friend - the terms of the gospel of Christ are the same today as they were during the apostolic era - the one who believes, repents and is baptized will have his/her sins forgiven and will receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. The words of Peter are as applicable to us today as they were the day he delivered them...

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

 

[Stan53]

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Mt 28.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
What has He just COMMANDED them to do?
Teach and baptize.
What do you do with a command? OBEY IT.

The OP is, Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation? No one that I've seen, has advocated NOT to get baptized in water.
The issue is IF it's required to achieve salvation?
BTW, the command was to the 11 remaining Apostles, to whom Jesus taught many things that the NT doesn't contain, John 20:30, so how do we know what would be from Jesus or not? Maybe someone can explain why the two depictions of this same commission by Jesus, here in Matthew 28 and in Mark 16, don't use the same words? Matthew 28 sounds like a commission, Mark 16 sounds different. They don't even take place in the same place. I don't have a problem with accepting Mark 16:16, but as the totality of the NT goes, to say Jesus' command here as regards water baptism, is to complete salvation is suspect at best. Both verses MAY be referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus commanded to wait in Jerusalem for the Advocate, BEFORE they went out preaching. In order for Mark 16:16 to be consistent and homogeneous with the rest of the NT, we must not take these words to mean what some here assert it to mean. I find the best way to do that is to study this issue without using this verse and see what the NT says. Once that teaching is commonly understood and accepted, we can then bring in Mark 16:16 and see WHERE it fits and in what context. To do otherwise makes Mark 16:16 goes against what the balance of the NT teaches or doesn't teach.

Obedience is always expected, but so is proper hermeneutical exegesis.

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 2 Tim 2:15

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Eph 4:4 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"


In Mk 16:16 the one Lord spoke of the one belief and one baptism that saves.

 

[zeke]

I don't have a problem with accepting Mark 16:16, but as the totality of the NT goes, to say Jesus' command here as regards water baptism, is to complete salvation is suspect at best.

But Stan does have problems accepting Mark 16:16 as he has noted many times on this thread. The words of Jesus in that passage are very clear - both belief and baptism in water precede the the leading verb “shall be saved.” The meaning is - the one who has already believed and who has already been immersed in water is the one who shall be saved.

There is nothing suspect at all in the words of the Lord and His words are in complete agreement with the words of Peter in Acts 2:38 where belief, repentance and baptism in water are to take place before one's sin will be remitted. Folks like Stan rejects these truths simply because of their sectarian biases.

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

Belief, repentance, baptism then comes "shall be saved/sins remitted" via the blood of Christ. It is all in the Book.

 

[dadof10]

The words are, "this symbolizes".

Right, the flood waters symbolize baptism. That's the extent of the symbolism here. The Ark doesn't symbolize Jesus, or the water doesn't symbolize destruction.

I am sure it had a lot to do with the Jewish believers he was talking to. You obviously don't get Peter's example or exactly what He is talking about.

LOL...There's another one. What he writes is what he's talking about. You HAVE to have a convoluted view of these verses so you can keep believing "sola-fide".

I do not have the motivation to continue trying to explain or exegete this for you. I suggest you go to this webpage to read a comprehensive commentary on this section of scripture.

http://preceptaustin.org/1_peter_318-22.htm​

I realize when you come across teachings like these it's hard to keep believing that Scripture teaches salvation by faith alone, and it makes you uncomfortable, which is why you keep trying to beg off. When Christians discuss salvation, the doctrine of "faith alone" is the real topic. It's the same on this baptism thread. If you didn't hold the heresy of sola-fide, you would be able to see that Peter is simply teaching baptism saves. As it is now, you won't let yourself see what the plain words say.

This sounds like a response from someone who really doesn't know what the BIBLE in it's entirety, has to say on the subject. It's called EXEGESIS, you should try it.

Great, let's try some. Exegesis with context. Here are two points:

As I said above, this is about the man-made doctrine of sola-fide. I can't post every verse from Paul's letters, but EVERY TIME (save one), when Paul speaks of "faith vs. works" it is in the DIRECT context of "works of the law", circumcision specifically. Go ahead, type the word "works" into Bible Gateway, any version you choose, and show me where Paul is referencing good works, baptism, keeping the commandments, etc. in relation to WORKS vs. faith. My question is, where do you get the idea that baptism, charity, etc. are called "works" by Paul? He certainly doesn't draw that parallel, so neither should you.

Salvation is not by faith alone, but by faith apart from works of the law:

"I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:37,38)

And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:16,17)

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:21-24)

Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. (1Tim. 2:15)

And , of course...

"...baptism, which now saves you..."

Seems like the "Bible in it's entirety" teaches we are NOT justified by faith alone.

Secondly, you have the erroneous view that Scripture ONLY teaches that faith is a one time event, when the "Bible in it's entirety" teaches that we ARE justified, HAVE BEEN justified and WILL BE justified. We are looking at the "Bible in it's entirety", so we shouldn't just IGNORE certain parts of Scripture, right?

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor. 1:18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life." (2Cor. 2:15,16)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 12,13)

These three passages point to the fact that salvation is a process..

"Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom. 9,10)

Here, Paul states that salvation is a future event.

Well yes if the Bible as a whole actually conveyed that message, I would have no choice but to submit to it... the fact is.... it DOESN'T.

The fact is, the Bible in it's entirety, teaches that we are not justified by faith alone and that justification is a process, not a one time event. Will you really submit to the Truth, or is the above just hot air?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Not at all. You state that an unsaved person cannot receive the Holy Spirit and have to be water baptized to be saved, and yet you are given two examples of where they people receive the Holy Spirit PRIOR to water baptism and ignore them.
You just need to plain think about what you believe.

James 1:21; Humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Could you point to the verse in Acts 10 where Cornelius was saved and why do you think he was he saved at that verse?

 

[Asyncritus]

The OP is, Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation? No one that I've seen, a couple are on my ignore list, has advocated NOT to get baptized in water.

The issue is IF it's required to achieve salvation?

If it's not, then why did

1 Jesus COMMAND IT so explicitly, and

2 get baptised Himself, and

3 gather round Him 12 disciples who had been baptised by John, and

4 then Himself baptise others?

Jn 4.1 ¶ When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

[this is an extraordinary statement, when we remember: Mt 3.5 Then went out to him {John} Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Must have been hundreds of people]

2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

This, remember, comes immediately after that severely threatening comment which answers the IF question:

(John 3. 35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.)

Why does this account of Jesus baptising hundreds come immediately after this comment? Because they are directly connected.

Those who heard Him, and believed what He said, were baptised by Him, the disciples doing the mechanical honours.

It's equally clear that there were those (especially among the leaders and Pharisees etc) who heard, did not believe, and refused to be baptised. Those threatening words just quoted are plainly directed at those people.

BTW, the command was to the 11 remaining Apostles, to whom Jesus taught many things that the NT doesn't contain, John 20:30, so how do we know what would be from Jesus or not?

If this IS the Word of God, then it is binding on us to OBEY it.

The disciples thought so too, and what did they do? They OBEYED and went out teaching and baptising everybody who believed the teaching. You cannot separate the 2 things.

Maybe someone can explain why the two depictions of this same commission by Jesus, here in Matthew 28 and in Mark 16, don't use the same words? Matthew 28 sounds like a commission, Mark 16 sounds different.

Two different people writing an account of the same things will never write precisely the same words. It is a mark of the truth of the accounts that they don't attempt to cover up the variations.

They don't even take place in the same place. I don't have a problem with accepting Mark 16:16, but as the totality of the NT goes, to say Jesus' command here as regards water baptism, is to complete salvation is suspect at best.

Complete salvation consists of 3 parts which are obvious from the consistent Mt and Mk commissions.

1 Being taught (and obviously accepting the teaching)

2 Being baptised after that, and

3 Observing (meaning doing) what was taught.

Both verses MAY be referring to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, as Jesus commanded to wait in Jerusalem for the Advocate, BEFORE they went out preaching. In order for Mark 16:16 to be consistent and homogeneous with the rest of the NT, we must not take these words to mean what some here assert it to mean.

On the other hand, it is far more likely that it may not be referring to the Holy Spirit at all - since it is not mentioned in either account of the commission.

I find the best way to do that is to study this issue without using this verse and see what the NT says. Once that teaching is commonly understood and accepted, we can then bring in Mark 16:16 and see WHERE it fits and in what context. To do otherwise makes Mark 16:16 goes against what the balance of the NT teaches or doesn't teach.

The whole of NT practice is exactly as I've stated above.

The disciples were all taught, believed, and were baptised.

They then went out, taught, and baptised those who believed.

Obedience is always expected, but so is proper hermeneutical exegesis.

You've got it in the above.

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

2 Tim 2:15

This was a letter to Timothy, who was a baptised believer, and correctly handling the word of truth meant teaching and baptising as had happened to Timothy himself.

This included the 'all the counsel of God'.

As he said to the Ephesians,

Acts 20.27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Where, you will recall, he re-baptised those 12 disciples who only knew the baptism of John.

Why would he do such a thing?

Because that's how important the matter was, in his mind.

So all that remains is to OBEY. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Stan53]

Eph 4:4 "One Lord, one faith, one baptism,"


In Mk 16:16 the one Lord spoke of the one belief and one baptism that saves.

Romans 10:9-10; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Luke 7:50; Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.â€
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+7:49-50&version=NIV

Luke 8:18;Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.â€

 

[Asyncritus]

Romans 10:9-10; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

And when was this declaration made? On the occasion of the individual's baptism, naturally.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

When did one confess their faith? At their baptism.

Matt 3.6:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.


Luke 7:50; Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

It's really pointless to use this incident in any significant way in the context of this discussion - largely because we simply don't know her background.

She may well have been one of these:

Matthew 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

If she was, then she heard of the coming of Christ from John and like Zacchaeus, had waited for Him to appear in her city before doing this great thing.

And it WAS a great thing.

She literally risked her life coming to Simon's house - and would not have dared do such a thing without great faith in John's message about Jesus' coming. If they killed her, she didn't care - because the one who was the resurrection and the life was there.

Incidentally, this possibly shows what John may have meant by 'he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit...' Maybe He was indicating that Jesus had the authority to actually forgive sins, whereas he himself didn't.

The question naturally arises - where did she get her 'great faith' as Jesus describes it? From hearing the Word of God.

Where and when did she hear it?

Not in the synagogue - she would have been stoned if she went near the place. So where then?

From John by the Jordan, and possibly from Jesus own outdoor addresses, to which she went secretly and in disguise, one supposes.

I recognise and acknowledge that there is speculation in this. But it is reverent speculation, only made in an attempt to account for the few facts we have been given.

She may well have been baptised by John, and the possibility cannot be discounted summarily.