Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Stan53]

Right, the flood waters symbolize baptism. That's the extent of the symbolism here. The Ark doesn't symbolize Jesus, or the water doesn't symbolize destruction.

The water WAS destruction and the Ark was a typification of Jesus, who saves us from destruction. The water doesn't save us.

I realize when you come across teachings like these it's hard to keep believing that Scripture teaches salvation by faith alone, and it makes you uncomfortable, which is why you keep trying to beg off. When Christians discuss salvation, the doctrine of "faith alone" is the real topic. It's the same on this baptism thread. If you didn't hold the heresy of sola-fide, you would be able to see that Peter is simply teaching baptism saves. As it is now, you won't let yourself see what the plain words say.

This kind of condescension doesn't really sit well with me and the topic is, Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation? Calling me a heretic at the same time will only result in one thing...I'll let you figure out what. You pick ONE verse, take it out of context, that being the whole NT, and tell me I can't see the plain words?
Shall I give you some plain words? Try Luke 7:50, or Romans 10:9-10, or how about reading Matthew 28:19-20. If you like Mark so much how about Mark 13:13? We can ignore 16:16 because apparently in 13:13 we will ONLY be saved when we make it to the end, so why get baptized at all? So I guess Jesus contradicted Himself because He says one thing in 13:13 and another in 16:16.
When people cherry pick verses instead of taking the WHOLE Bible, and make their stand on ONE verse, well as I've already told one person on this thread, read Luke 18:18.

Great, let's try some. Exegesis with context. Here are two points:
As I said above, this is about the man-made doctrine of sola-fide. I can't post every verse from Paul's letters, but EVERY TIME (save one), when Paul speaks of "faith vs. works" it is in the DIRECT context of "works of the law", circumcision specifically. Go ahead, type the word "works" into Bible Gateway, any version you choose, and show me where Paul is referencing good works, baptism, keeping the commandments, etc. in relation to WORKS vs. faith. My question is, where do you get the idea that baptism, charity, etc. are called "works" by Paul? He certainly doesn't draw that parallel, so neither should you.

LOL, you actually have to take verses and properly exegete them in order to practise exegesis. As Paul was called to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, Romans 11:13 and Gal 2:8, His reference to works is based on the common understanding of the Gentiles. They no more understood Mosaic Law than you do.
Eph 2:8-10, directed to Gentiles, Paul uses 'works' twice in these passages.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. The Greek word for works here is ergon and I'll let you look up the meaning so you can practise your exegesis. It means the same thing in both places. You know there are a couple of cults that believe in works to accomplish their salvation...Mormons and JW's. You wouldn't happen to be one of them would you?

Salvation is not by faith alone, but by faith apart from works of the law:
"I tell you, on the day of judgement men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:37,38)

Yes this is true, exactly as Paul explained it in Romans 10:9-13; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.†12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€
Don't see much here about water in this statement of Paul's.

And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?" 17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." (Matt. 19:16,17)

Yes, well again you cherry pick verses OUT of context. Read verses 16-30 to really see what is going on here. It wasn't just keeping the commandments, it was letting go of what was at the very heart of this man, to follow Jesus, his wealth.
Not exactly what I would call "Rightly dividing the Word of truth".

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:21-24)

Again, CONTEXT. Nothing to do with salvation here, nor water baptism. Your red letters in the first line are misleading to say the least, whether deliberately or not I cannot say. Verse 21 properly reads; Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
In any event these verses are NOT germane to this topic.

Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty. (1Tim. 2:15)

LOL, yes OK another way to get saved, have babies. Give me a break. This truly shows your complete lack of understanding of how to even read the Bible, let alone properly exegete it.

The fact is, the Bible in it's entirety, teaches that we are not justified by faith alone and that justification is a process, not a one time event. Will you really submit to the Truth, or is the above just hot air?

Well you haven't actually presented ANY facts. I suggest you actually read Hebrews 11 to see what FAITH is. Salvation IS a ONE time event. I submit to God's word daily as I RIGHTLY divide it, by His Holy Spirit.
Take a look at Matthew 17:20; Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€
Seems pretty clear to me here that FAITH is ALL it takes to accomplish this, or do you think there is some kind of 'work' we need to throw in here?

 

[Kidron]

washing of regeneration.


The washing of regeneration is by the Word/Holy Spirit, not by water.

So lets look at what Peter says as this seems to be what you need to talk about.....

In 1st Peter 1:3.... it says we are begotten again (born again) by his mercy... based on the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.
(no water baptism in the verse)

in 1st Peter 1:19 it says you were redeemed (saved, born again) by the precious BLOOD of Christ.
(no water baptism in the verse)

In 1st Peter 1:23 it say you are "born again by the Word of God".
(no water baptism in the verse)

in 1st Peter 1:24 it says that your health comes from the stripes laid on Christ, and this "healed" is very broad, it means your finances, your mind, your body, your
soul, as well as your spirit being restored ...and all this, according to the verse, is based on Jesus bearing our sins in his body on the tree".
(no water baptism in the verse)

And now this...

Notice Acts 18:8.....""and many of the Corinthians >hearing< (faith comes by hearing).....BELIEVED.................and were baptised.
Now do you get the order?
You hear the gospel, you believe it and are born again, and then you are water baptised to identify yourself with the risen Christ.
You do not baptise FOR salvation or to become saved ....as only the shed blood of the risen Christ can wash away your sins.
Baptism is always 3rd .
1.)You hear the Gospel, ...2.)you believe it, and when you do, you are born again by the Spirit of God, and following that 3.)you submit to an ordinance called Water Baptism that identifies you as a new creation.

Now again..

Peter in Acts 10:44...."and when Peter spake, the Holy Ghost fell on them which HEARD THE WORD..
Now look at vs 47:..."can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptised >which have received the Holy Ghost".
Now did you get that?
You have the Holy Ghost and tongues in verse 46.........so that means these hearers were SAVED and FILLED with the Spirit of God before they were to submit to the water ordinance in verse 47.
So once again we have the correct order of Salvation.
1.)You hear the message of the gospel.
2.)You believe it and are saved.
3.)THEN you submit to the water ordinance.
And if you dont, you are still saved, just like those in the verse that Peter was preaching to who heard the gospel, believed it, and then were filled with the Spirit and in this case spoke in tongues.
And all this happened BEFORE they were baptised in water.
Aren't you glad that Peter was able to clarify this for you?
He wrote it, i didnt.

Now lets look at Phillip in Acts 8:37.
He has found a convert.
He has shared the gospel.
and then right before the baptism in water, he tells him this..
"if you believe with all your heart, you may be water baptised".
So, once again, we see it as ......1......2.......3.
The convert is told the gospel in verse 35, he believes it in verse 37, and is immersed in water in verse 38.
1
2
3
everytime.

Now how about Acts 2....
we see in verse 41 it says the converts "received the word" which means they heard it by FAITH and were SAVED.......and THEN they were baptised.
So, once again, its the same order.
1.)You hear the gospel and faith comes by hearing.
2.)You believe it, and you are born again by Spiritual regeneration instantly.
3.)Then you go to the water to indentify yourself as a new creation in Christ.

Now notice these..

Ephesians 1:7..."redemption through his BLOOD".
(not water)

Ephesians 1:13.14..."who first TRUSTED IN Christ, after you HEARD THE WORD =THE GOSPEL of your salvation.......in whom after you BELIEVED.....you were SEALED with the Holy Spirit".
So, once again, ........1. Hearing....2.Trusting....3. Sealed by the Holy Spirit
(no water baptism in the verse)


Now lets look at this verse.
Ephesians...5:26.
This verse is talking about the entire corporate body of Christ, all at once.
"That Jesus might sanctify and cleanse IT with the washing of water by the word".
That is to say, that the word through the Holy Spirit washes and spiritually baptises, and it effects salvation in the hearer because the Word is Truth and it is also The Power Of God to save.
Remember that Jesus is the Word and he gives you "living WATER" on the inside of you,..which is symbolic of the Holy Spirit regenerating you.
The washing that saves you, is done on the INSIDE, as that is the part of you that is SAVED.
You body, is not redeemed yet......that happens later.
So, all water does is wash a non redeemed body, so that it is identified with Christ.
But the baptism that saves you, is a SPIRITUAL REGENERATION and that happens on the inside, by the word, through FAITH, and has nothing to do with washing your body with H2o



. It is impossible to have a purified soul without obedience/WORK.


Simply and profoundly untrue.
What you are preaching is exactly why Paul wrote the letter to the Galations to expose their error which is your error....... and Paul calls what you are preaching, "falling from Grace" in Galations 5:4, and "Accursed" in Galatians 1:6-9



K

...............

 

[Stan53]

Could you point to the verse in Acts 10 where Cornelius was saved and why do you think he was he saved at that verse?

Acts 10 doesn't say WHEN he was saved, it says in verse 2; He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

I think it is best, that when you have a point to make, make it, and not try to get at it by guile.

 

[Stan53]

And when was this declaration made? On the occasion of the individual's baptism, naturally.

10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

When did one confess their faith? At their baptism.

I'm sorry...where is it you see this confession being at their baptism? You may want to read verse 8?

Confession is made at the moment you accept Christ as your saviour. With some at that time, it may have been just prior to baptism. Speculation does NOT make your assertions correct or valid. Based on your statement here, may I speculate that you only accepted and believed in Jesus the day you were baptised?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

14 ...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)

Justification, being declared righteous before God, is a one time event. Sanctification (being made holy) is what takes a lifetime. People are made (declared) righteous by believing God, not by what they do. The Holy Spirit is the evidence that one has been forever justified by faith in the sacrifice of Christ.

Cornelius was saved when he was given the Holy Spirit. Unsaved people, who do not belong to God, do not have the Holy Spirit, nor do they have the gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the sign of his belief and his declaration of righteousness because of that belief.

He did not receive this declaration of rigtheousness (as evidenced by the Holy Spirit) in, at, or through water baptism. He received the Holy Spirit before and apart from his water baptism. He received it when he believed. So no one should shut the door to this working of God and make a dogmatic statement that God only saves people in and through water baptism. Simply not true, scripturally. And countless people will testify to this truth from their own experience.

This doesn't mean we are free to disobey the command to be baptized. It means it's possible for a person to be saved before and apart from their water baptism. We really do have to wonder about the person who resists water baptism. But only God knows if that resistance is a matter of salvation for them or not, because only he knows the real reason why they're resisiting.

 

[MarkT]

There is nothing new under the sun my friend - the terms of the gospel of Christ are the same today as they were during the apostolic era - the one who believes, repents and is baptized will have his/her sins forgiven and will receive the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. The words of Peter are as applicable to us today as they were the day he delivered them...

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:38 NKJV)​

Jesus baptized with the word of God and the Holy Spirit. John baptized with water. I’m not saying the disciples didn’t use water as well only in this case water isn’t mentioned. Saying they will receive the Holy Spirit tells us they were baptized by the word of God.

Is not my word like fire, says the LORD, and like a hammer which breaks the rock in pieces? Jer. 23:29 This scripture and John's testimony, 'he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire' Mt. 3:11 agree with one another; Jesus baptized with the word of God.

Water may be a component of salvation, but unless you have been baptized by the word of God you really don’t have anything. You can make an appeal, but it is the Son who forgives sin. God saves whoever he wants to save lest we boast.

Even the serpents, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, went to John to be baptized by him. Apparently they were attracted by all the ceremony, being that they loved anything ceremonial.

So water may be an element, but there’s something about a ceremony that attracts serpents as well. By serpents I mean false teachers and false prophets.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Romans 10:9-10; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Luke 7:50; Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”


Luke 8:18;Therefore consider carefully how you listen. Whoever has will be given more; whoever does not have, even what they think they have will be taken from them.”

First you quote a verse in the NT gospel from Rom 10:9;10 but then you go back to Lk 7 when the OT law was still in effect and the NT gospel, including Rom 10, was not yet in effect. Did you notice Rom 10:9 says "believe in your heart that God raised (past tense) him from the dead, you will be saved."? The woman in Lk 7 could not have the kind of faith Rom 10:9 requires for Christ had not yet died much less been raised from the dead. So Lk 7 is NOT an example of NT gospel salvation just as the thief on the cross is NOT an example of NT salvation. The church began at Acts 2 with the first recorded gospel sermon made by Peter, you would have to begin here where the gospel came into effect to show examples of NT salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Acts 10 doesn't say WHEN he was saved, it says in verse 2; He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

I think it is best, that when you have a point to make, make it, and not try to get at it by guile.

If Cornelius did not gain salvation in Acts 10, then where in Acts did he and how did he?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

...............

Reply to post #642

Tts 3:5 is a reference to being born (as is 1cor 12:13) per Jesus own words of Jn 3:5. Again by harmonizing verses that relate to the new birth we get:

Jn 3:5-------Spirit+++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5-----Holy Ghost++++++++washing of reg>>>>>>>>saved
1cor12:13---Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body

The new birth was one birth consisting of two elements; spirit and water and those exact same two elements are found in Tts 3:5 and 1 cor 12:13. Again, being in the kingdom/in the body/saved are al equivalent terms, all represent a saved position. Since there is just ONE way to be saved all verses MUST express the same idea meaning water is equivalent to washing of reg. which is equivalent to baptized. The bible is its own best commentary on these verses.


Both Peter and Paul said to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. Peter said to repent and be baptized for remission of sins and Paul said to beleive and confess unto salvation/righteousness. Again, since there is just ONE way to be saved and the bible does not contradict itself we get:

call upon the name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
beleive, repent, confess, baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved/remission of sins

This MUST, MUST, MUST mean that calling on the name of the Lord includes beleiving, repenting, confessing and be baptized which jesus said to do all these things for one cannot even call Jesus "Lord" if he does not do those things which He says to do, Lk 6.

You are trying to create mulitple ways of being saved when there is only ONE way to be saved and thereby you create many contradicitions. Peter in Acts 2 and Paul in Rom 10 do not con tradict but harmonize the ONE way of being saved.

Lastly Peter said "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: "

What can I say? To deny that Peter said a purified soul cames as a result of obeying the truth is just denying what peter said. Peter is referencing the new birth and when we hamonize it with other new birth verses we get:


Jn 3:5-------Spirit+++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts 3:5-----Holy Ghost++++++++washing of reg>>>>>>>>saved
1cor12:13---Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>in the body
1pet1:22----Spirit++++++++++++obey the truth>>>>>>>purified.

Again it is important to remeber there is just one way to be saved so all these verses express the same idea, so no one can try and take them apart and say one verse say one thing and another verse says something else or Peter said one thing and paul said something else for by doing so contradictions are being created and trying to create more than one way to be saved.

 

[Asyncritus]

I'm sorry...where is it you see this confession being at their baptism? You may want to read verse 8?

Confession is made at the moment you accept Christ as your saviour. With some at that time, it may have been just prior to baptism. Speculation does NOT make your assertions correct or valid. Based on your statement here, may I speculate that you only accepted and believed in Jesus the day you were baptised?

I quoted the people who confessed their sins when John was baptising them in Mt 2.

And just a question here:

Have you ever read Romans ch 6?

What do you make of it?

Here are three thousand precedents for you:

41 Then they that gladly received his word [...they believed...] were baptized:[..and were baptized...] and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [...that's 3,000 precedents for you...]

And why did they get baptized?

Because they wanted to be saved:

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 

[zeke]

This doesn't mean we are free to disobey the command to be baptized. It means it's possible for a person to be saved before and apart from their water baptism. We really do have to wonder about the person who resists water baptism. But only God knows if that resistance is a matter of salvation for them or not, because only he knows the real reason why they're resisiting.

And we are not free to tell the lost that baptism is optional regarding their salvation. One is saved by the blood of Christ when he "obeys from the heart the doctrine delivered" and that doctrine delivered has always included belief, repentance and baptism. To teach the seeker of Christ that he does not have to be baptized is to teach error and this is what you are doing my friend - I say this to your shame.

Baptism is essential to the gospel of grace - baptism in water is from God and it is not optional. Baptism comes BEFORE one's sins are remitted. The NT does not know of an unbaptized believer. On the day of Pentecost those seekers asked Peter what they must do to be saved. Peter preached the full gospel and the gospel included the command to be baptized "for the remission of sins". Case closed.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:37-38 NKJV)​

 

[zeke]

Jesus baptized with the word of God and the Holy Spirit. John baptized with water. I’m not saying the disciples didn’t use water as well only in this case water isn’t mentioned. Saying they will receive the Holy Spirit tells us they were baptized by the word of God.

Jesus submitted to baptism in water - Jesus taught baptism in water - Jesus commanded baptism in water - Jesus said baptism in water must take place before one "shall be saved - ones sins are washed away by the blood of Christ at the point of baptism in water - one is placed "into Christ" by God at the point of baptism in water - the believer receives the indwelling "the gift of the Holy Spirit" at the point of baptism in water.

The question for you Mark is this - is baptism in water essential to the gospel of grace per Holy Writ? Think before you answer please. If you have not been baptized in water..."why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord' (Act 22:16 NKJV).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To teach the seeker of Christ that he does not have to be baptized is to teach error and this is what you are doing my friend - I say this to your shame.

And when I start telling people they can ignore the command to be water baptized I'll hang my head in shame. I plainly said we should obey the command to be baptized.

Baptism is essential to the gospel of grace - baptism in water is from God and it is not optional. Baptism comes BEFORE one's sins are remitted. The NT does not know of an unbaptized believer. On the day of Pentecost those seekers asked Peter what they must do to be saved. Peter preached the full gospel and the gospel included the command to be baptized "for the remission of sins". Case closed.

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
(Act 2:37-38 NKJV)​

You can't close your case in Acts 2. There's more: In Acts 10, Cornelius was NOT saved in, at, or through water baptism. He did NOT receive the Holy Spirit in, at, or through water baptism. We should not bludgeon the church with dogmatic doctrines formed without all the evidence available to us, and which actual experience does not support.

The honest thing to do is acknowledge that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before and apart from his water baptism. That doesn't mean he was releived of the duty to be water baptized. It plainly and simply means he was given the Holy Spirit and put into the body of Christ before and apart from water baptism. Scripturally, it's impossible to teach that water baptism is the only time a person will get the Holy Spirit. Make scriptural room in your doctrine for those of us who did NOT get the Holy Spirit at that time. It's the only honest thing to do. And stop thinking this means a person can skip water baptism. That is not what this means.

 

[zeke]

And when I start telling people they can ignore the command to be water baptized I'll hang my head in shame.

As I noted - we (you) are not authorized by God to tell the lost that baptism is optional regarding their salvation. We are required to present the full gospel message - the same gospel that includes the truth that baptism takes place before one is saved. One is saved by the blood of Christ when he "obeys from the heart the doctrine delivered" and that doctrine delivered has always included belief, repentance and baptism. You are telling the lost they do not need to be baptized to be saved but Jesus clearly said he who believes and is baptized is the one who will then be saved (Mark 16:16). Peter agrees in Acts 2:38 - belief, repentance, baptism then comes "remission of sins".

You can't close your case in Acts 2. There's more: In Acts 10, Cornelius was NOT saved in, at, or through water baptism.

God is no respecter of person – salvation is the same for Jew and Gentile under the NT. Peter was instructed to speak unto Cornelius "words whereby he would be saved" (Acts 11:14) because "faith comes by hearing". The words preached by Peter included the command to be baptized in water.

And [Peter] commanded [Cornelius and his house] to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. (Acts 10:48 (NKJV)​

Cornelius, like Paul was commanded to “be baptized†to wash away his sin.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
(Act 22:16 KJV)​

The pattern is believe and be baptized and then comes salvation. The Bible does not say ‘believe and be saved and then be baptized’.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
(Mar 16:16 KJV)​

Baptism in water is part of the new birth - being born of 'water and the Spirit' - one cannot enter God's kingdom without experiencing the new birth.

"Are ye ignorant that we were baptized into his death? To those who are not ignorant the sign of baptism speaks of death. To be baptised means to be immersed, to be sunk in a foreign element, to be covered by a tide of purification. The man who emerges from the water is not the same man who entered it. One man dies and another is born.." ~ Karl Barth, "Commentary on Romans"​

 

[Slider]

Jesus baptized with the word of God and the Holy Spirit. John baptized with water. I’m not saying the disciples didn’t use water as well only in this case water isn’t mentioned. Saying they will receive the Holy Spirit tells us they were baptized by the word of God.


Is not my word like fire, says the LORD, and like a hammer which breaks the rock in pieces? Jer. 23:29 This scripture and John's testimony, 'he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire' Mt. 3:11 agree with one another; Jesus baptized with the word of God.

Water may be a component of salvation, but unless you have been baptized by the word of God you really don’t have anything. You can make an appeal, but it is the Son who forgives sin. God saves whoever he wants to save lest we boast.






Even the serpents, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, went to John to be baptized by him. Apparently they were attracted by all the ceremony, being that they loved anything

ceremonial.



So water may be an element, but there’s something about a ceremony that attracts serpents as well. By serpents I mean false teachers and false prophets.

Praising the Lord that someone else gets it!

 

[zeke]

So water may be an element, but there’s something about a ceremony that attracts serpents as well. By serpents I mean false teachers and false prophets.

God included the ordinance of baptism as a picture of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 6). Did He really design baptism to 'attract serpents' or did He design baptism as a means of putting believers "into Christ"? It is amazing how some folks want to discard that which God has designed to save our souls. Rather sad.

 

[dadof10]

The water WAS destruction and the Ark was a typification of Jesus, who saves us from destruction. The water doesn't save us.

Where does Peter say this? It's not in the text. Eisegesis...

This kind of condescension doesn't really sit well with me and the topic is, Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

Don't dish it out if you can't take it:

"I can't help it if you read into these passages what you believe beforehand. There's a word for doing that, and it is called eisegesis. You may not even know you are doing it."

"You obviously don't get Peter's example or exactly what He is talking about."

"This sounds like a response from someone who really doesn't know what the BIBLE in it's entirety, has to say on the subject. It's called EXEGESIS, you should try it."

Calling me a heretic at the same time will only result in one thing...I'll let you figure out what.

I never called you a heretic, I said the doctrine of sola-fide was heretical. Don't you feel the same way about what you would consider "works salvation"? How about the doctrine of salvific baptism? Don't you consider both of these heretical? Is your skin really this thin or are you simply looking for an excuse to beg off?

You pick ONE verse, take it out of context, that being the whole NT, and tell me I can't see the plain words?

The plain words say "baptism, which now saves you". I don't have to twist my brain into a pretzel to in an attempt to make them fit my preconceived man-made notions. I can just accept the entire NT at face value.

Shall I give you some plain words? Try Luke 7:50, or Romans 10:9-10, or how about reading Matthew 28:19-20. If you like Mark so much how about Mark 13:13? We can ignore 16:16 because apparently in 13:13 we will ONLY be saved when we make it to the end, so why get baptized at all? So I guess Jesus contradicted Himself because He says one thing in 13:13 and another in 16:16.
When people cherry pick verses instead of taking the WHOLE Bible, and make their stand on ONE verse, well as I've already told one person on this thread, read Luke 18:18.

You seem to have a different set of rules for yourself and others. When you bring up single verses that speak of salvation by faith, that's called "rightly dividing the word of truth", when I, or others, bring up verses that teach salvation by good deeds done in faith, you cry "cherry pick"!!!

Where do any of these verses teach salvation by faith alone? Where do they tell us we are not justified by baptism? Keeping the commandments? Acts of charity? They say we are saved by faith, not faith alone. And they say NOTHING about what is required of the believer going forward or whether we can lose that initial justification.

LOL, you actually have to take verses and properly exegete them in order to practise exegesis.

Should I get indignant about this "condescension"?

As Paul was called to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, Romans 11:13 and Gal 2:8, His reference to works is based on the common understanding of the Gentiles. They no more understood Mosaic Law than you do.

Wow...And there's some more arrogance. Again, two sets of rules. It's obviously OK for you to talk down to me, but then you complain when it comes back?

If you're looking for the context of Paul's "faith vs works" teachings, you need to read Acts 15. The first heresy within the early Church was that there were "Judaizers" who were teaching GENTILES they had to be CIRCUMCISED according to the LAW OF MOSES. It was such a problem, the Church called a council to deal with it and Paul went and pleaded his case. He (rightly) taught that circumcision (or the Law) didn't save, faith did. For Paul to be teaching this, had NOTHING to do with whether the Gentiles "understood" the Law or not. All they needed to understand was there were people who thought that they needed to become Jews before they could become Christians.

Eph 2:8-10, directed to Gentiles, Paul uses 'works' twice in these passages.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. The Greek word for works here is ergon and I'll let you look up the meaning so you can practise your exegesis.

It's a good thing I have thick skin, or I might get offended due to all this arrogance. The word is the same, what's your point? Let's keep reading...

"Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ."

As I said, this, LIKE ALL THE OTHERS (except one), is in the DIRECT CONTEXT of circumcision. Paul's teaching has NOTHING to do with baptism. Again, you are reading your man-made doctrine into the text.

It means the same thing in both places. You know there are a couple of cults that believe in works to accomplish their salvation...Mormons and JW's. You wouldn't happen to be one of them would you?

My avatar is the Blessed Virgin Mary, I think you can tell by that, I'm Catholic. More condescension... You can attempt to frame the argument as "works to accomplish their salvation", but that would be a straw-man, as the Catholic Church teaches salvation by Grace alone. This is why we believe that infant baptism saves. Grace alone. You sola-fide advocates are the ones who believe in "works salvation", after all, you MUST "accept Jesus" or "confess with your lips", or whatever, to be saved. How is this NOT a "work" when EVERYTHING ELSE IS?

Yes this is true, exactly as Paul explained it in Romans 10:9-13; If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,†and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.†12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.â€
Don't see much here about water in this statement of Paul's.

Don't see much about water in Eph. 2:8-10 either, but that didn't stop you from bringing it up. Different rules and more erroneous complaints.

What you are responding to here is Matt. 12:37,38 which says:

"I tell you, on the day of judgement men will render account for every careless word they utter; 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:37,38)

This is typical of your "exegesis", Stan. You ignore HALF of the teaching. Jesus says by your words you will be justified, ans by your words you will be condemned. Not by your lack of words, not by NOT confessing Jesus as Lord, by your actual words. The words you speak effect your salvation, for good OR BAD. So, how will you twist to get out of this one? I have no doubt you can do it. :biglol

Yes, well again you cherry pick verses OUT of context. Read verses 16-30 to really see what is going on here. It wasn't just keeping the commandments, it was letting go of what was at the very heart of this man, to follow Jesus, his wealth.
Not exactly what I would call "Rightly dividing the Word of truth".

A person asks Jesus what he must do to inherit Eternal Life and Jesus' answer is "keep the commandments". By "rightly dividing", you must mean ONLY looking at it through the prism of sola-fide. This is a simple story with a simple message, just like "baptism, which now saves you". You have to make it something it's not to defend this heresy.

Again, CONTEXT. Nothing to do with salvation here, nor water baptism. Your red letters in the first line are misleading to say the least, whether deliberately or not I cannot say. Verse 21 properly reads; Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
In any event these verses are NOT germane to this topic.

OK, have it your way. "Considered righteous", just like in Galatians 2 and Romans 4. So, how is it Gal. and Rom. are concerning salvation, yet James is not? The reason we can be sure these verses concern salvation, outside of the obvious words you are trying to twist, is that James starts out saying it is. "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?"

More "rightly dividing", I suppose?

LOL, yes OK another way to get saved, have babies. Give me a break. This truly shows your complete lack of understanding of how to even read the Bible, let alone properly exegete it.

Go ahead and "properly exegete" it, then? You tell me what it means. And try to use the actual words of the verse and try not to just jump to Romans or some other place you THINK proves your point, while ignoring the actual words of the verse.

This verse points to the FACT that we are NOT saved by faith alone, along with the other verses I posted.

Well you haven't actually presented ANY facts. I suggest you actually read Hebrews 11 to see what FAITH is. Salvation IS a ONE time event.

I have read Hebrews 11, thanks. Here is what I found.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go."

1) Since Heb. 11 is all about "saving faith", we see that Abraham was justified, or saved, when he left Haran.

2) Paul says he was justified, or declared righteous, when he "believed God".

3) James says he was justified or declared righteous, when he "offered Isaac on the altar".

Abraham was justified three times, that we know of. If we are "rightly dividing the word", we see that you are wrong, that justification is a PROCESS, not a one time event.

I submit to God's word daily as I RIGHTLY divide it, by His Holy Spirit.

And if we disagree with you are we disagreeing with the Holy Spirit, or is it possible you could be wrong?

Take a look at Matthew 17:20; Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.â€
Seems pretty clear to me here that FAITH is ALL it takes to accomplish this, or do you think there is some kind of 'work' we need to throw in here?

So, how many verses do you require to prove the doctrine of sola-fide false, yet this ONE verse "seems pretty clear"? Again, different rules.

 

[dadof10]

14 ...by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Hebrews 10:14 NIV1984)

Justification, being declared righteous before God, is a one time event.

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go."

1) Since Heb. 11 is all about "saving faith", we see that Abraham was justified, or saved, when he left Haran.

2) Paul says he was justified, or declared righteous, when he "believed God".

3) James says he was justified or declared righteous, when he "offered Isaac on the altar".

Abraham was justified three times, that we know of.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As I noted - we (you) are not authorized by God to tell the lost that baptism is optional regarding their salvation. We are required to present the full gospel message...

Preach the message, including water baptism...just be prepared to accept it when God saves people, giving them his Holy Spirit, before they get water baptized. Peter did, so should you.

- the same gospel that includes the truth that baptism takes place before one is saved.

Like I say, just be prepared when God doesn't obey his own supposed hard and fast, legalistic rule for being saved.

You are telling the lost they do not need to be baptized to be saved...

NO! I said it's possible that God will save a person before and apart from water baptism.

...but Jesus clearly said he who believes and is baptized is the one who will then be saved (Mark 16:16). Peter agrees in Acts 2:38 - belief, repentance, baptism then comes "remission of sins".

It just didn't work that way for Cornelius. What this means is we are not to be dogmatic about it. Let the chips fall where they may. Let God do what God wants to do, and what he has demonstrated he may very well do. It's a stupid, meaningless argument to insist that God only saves in and through water baptism. Teach baptism, but let God decide when and where he bestows the sign and seal of salvation, the Holy Spirit.

God is no respecter of person – salvation is the same for Jew and Gentile under the NT. Peter was instructed to speak unto Cornelius "words whereby he would be saved" (Acts 11:14) because "faith comes by hearing". The words preached by Peter included the command to be baptized in water.

And [Peter] commanded [Cornelius and his house] to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. (Acts 10:48 (NKJV)​

Cornelius, like Paul was commanded to “be baptized” to wash away his sin.

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
(Act 22:16 KJV)​

The pattern is believe and be baptized and then comes salvation. The Bible does not say ‘believe and be saved and then be baptized’.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
(Mar 16:16 KJV)​

Baptism in water is part of the new birth - being born of 'water and the Spirit' - one cannot enter God's kingdom without experiencing the new birth.

"Are ye ignorant that we were baptized into his death? To those who are not ignorant the sign of baptism speaks of death. To be baptised means to be immersed, to be sunk in a foreign element, to be covered by a tide of purification. The man who emerges from the water is not the same man who entered it. One man dies and another is born.." ~ Karl Barth, "Commentary on Romans"​

Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, the sign and seal of salvation, God's righteousness, BEFORE his water baptism. It's impossible for an honest person to deny this. Does this mean we can skip water baptism? Of course not. It means water baptism was not meant to be a legalistic duty through which God saves a person. If it happens that way, great. If it doesn't, don't bludgeon the person who breaks your dogmatic doctrine. There's no value in that. It's a meaningless argument.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go."

1) Since Heb. 11 is all about "saving faith", we see that Abraham was justified, or saved, when he left Haran.

2) Paul says he was justified, or declared righteous, when he "believed God".

3) James says he was justified or declared righteous, when he "offered Isaac on the altar".

Abraham was justified three times, that we know of.

We are made righteous by our faith in Jesus Christ. IOW, we are made righteous (justified) when we are forgiven, having placed our trust and faith in the blood of Christ, not before, through the effort of faithful works, nor after through the effort of faithful works. That is the very specific object of faith that saves--faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

In that one moment of putting our trust in the blood of Christ we are forever and totally made perfect before God in regard to righteousness. That is called justification (one definition for the word). From there we spend a lifetime learning to walk in, and living up to that perfectly right standing with God. That is called sanctification--being made holy in what we do, not in regard to our legal standing before God.

We are not made righteous by what we do. We are made righteous by what we believe about the blood of Christ. Because it is the blood of Christ that removes unrighteousness. Unrigheousness is not removed by doing righteous things. From there we are shown to be righteous by what we do as we are transformed by the grace of God in the Holy Spirit given to us when we believed God about the blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sin.


As I said, I did many faithful things before I actually placed my trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. They were indeed motivated by faith in the truth of the gospel. But it is only when I placed my trust in the blood of Christ that I was forever and totally made perfect and declared righteous (justified) before God in regard to sin guilt and saved. Doing righteous things does not forgive sins. Only the blood of Christ can do that.

So it was with Abraham. He did faithful things before he actually was declared righteous by his faith in the promise of a son God made to him. Paul's teaching in Romans about justification by faith is the very specific instruction we have by which the less specific chapter in Hebrews about faith is to be understood. He uses Abraham to show us it is faith in the promise of Christ and the forgiveness of sin, all by itself, that justifies. What we do only shows us to have accepted that forgiveness and made righteous by that faith.