Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[heymikey80]

Can you think of the occasion in scripture where baptism is referred to as being done to 'fulfill all righteousness'? It's clearly portrayed as a 'work' of righteousness, just as many of the law of Moses' works were works of righteousness, yet which we plainly know to not be works in and of themselves through which we gain salvation despite them being the fulfillment of righteousness, like baptism.

One of the highly interesting things about baptism is that it's not something you do. It's something you undergo, or submit to.

So if baptism is a work, it's a good work being done to you, not a good work you are doing.

 

[reba]

There is no such thing in the bible as an "unbaptized Christian".

Then you should have no problem quoting chapter and verse of their baptisms.

Yes i have been baptized. Not to have salvation but because i am saved. And i believe believers should be baptized.

I agree it is not "a work" Handy, As prayer is not a work...

 

[Keith]

Jesus commanded baptism. The apostles baptized believers. In 1 Peter 3:21 the apostle said baptism saves us. Why even question it?

 

[Webb]

Good question Keith---The simple answer is some think they know more about it than Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One of the highly interesting things about baptism is that it's not something you do. It's something you undergo, or submit to.

So if baptism is a work, it's a good work being done to you, not a good work you are doing.

So was circumcision. And it was given to Abraham as a condition for being a part of the covenant people of God. Yet we now know it was not meant at all to be a literal thing that got done in order to be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Then you should have no problem quoting chapter and verse of their baptisms.

Yes i have been baptized. Not to have salvation but because i am saved. And i believe believers should be baptized.

I agree it is not "a work" Handy, As prayer is not a work...

Acts 2:38>41; Acts 8:12,13,38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 16:15,33; Acts 18:8; Acts 19:5; more?

There is not a single example of one being a Christian that was not first baptized, that is, no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

I asked you in a prior post if your sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, then how did Christ's blood wash away your sins, and why your sins and not everyone's sins? What distinguished you from others that your sins are washed away but their sins are not?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Good question Keith---The simple answer is some think they know more about it than Jesus.

Do I know more than God and Moses because I know that circumcision really wasn't in and of itself a required act of righteousness to be in covenant with God despite what the OT taught?

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. ” (Genesis 17:9-14 NIV)


The people of God offered the same argument for circumcision then, based on what the scriptures plainly say, that the people of God now offer in regard to baptism...and use the same 'Word of God' defense to argue it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'll only use John's gospel here, and will highlight the passages where it's literal water.:

No, no, no. I asked you to show me that the water Jesus is talking about in John 3 is very specifically water baptism. I know he's talking about water. I want you to show me where Jesus says he's talking about a very literal water baptism. That's what we do not know about the passage. Some say 'water' signifies the water of natural birth. Some say it signifies the water of water baptism. I say it simply doesn't tell us.

I will suggest to you that it can mean the baptism of natural people into the kingdom of God through Moses. That actually reconciles both views very well. It isn't enough to enter the kingdom of God through Moses and a natural people of God. You must also enter in through a spiritual birth. A people of God centered around natural lineage, and keeping the law of Moses is not enough. It's true that no one will 'see the kingdom of God' who does not upheld the law of Moses, and who in effect attach themselves to a nation of God's people through that law. You must also be born 'again', by the Spirit, not just through the 'waters' of Moses baptism when a natural people of God were born when they crossed the sea. But that is the exact confidence that Jews and those who attached themselves to the Jews were deceived into believing. Jesus sets Nicodemus straight on this. It isn't enough to be born unto God and the kingdom through the law. You must be born 'again' by the Spirit.

 

[handy]

Do I know more than God and Moses because I know that circumcision really wasn't in and of itself a required act of righteousness to be in covenant with God despite what the OT taught?

9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant. †(Genesis 17:9-14 NIV)


The people of God offered the same argument for circumcision then, based on what the scriptures plainly say, that the people of God now offer in regard to baptism...and use the same 'Word of God' defense to argue it.

How was circumcision not a required act of righteousness to be in covenant with God under the Old Testament? Can you explain your reasoning here?

 

[reba]

Acts 2:38>41; Acts 8:12,13,38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:47,48; Acts 16:15,33; Acts 18:8; Acts 19:5; more?

There is not a single example of one being a Christian that was not first baptized, that is, no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

I asked you in a prior post if your sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, then how did Christ's blood wash away your sins, and why your sins and not everyone's sins? What distinguished you from others that your sins are washed away but their sins are not?

Are you sure these cover everyone? Or the all who happened to be there at the time...

Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

I read the above in 3 gospels and didn't see a record of baptism.

Act 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Act 3:7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.


Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Do we have scripture record of these folks being baptized?
Maybe you dont believe being touch or healed by the Lord is enough,to call these folks Christian... Or it was at this time or that.

There is not a single example of one being a Christian that was not first baptized, that is, no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

I disagree

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Seems odd God did not tell Paul here, to include baptism.

 

[reba]

Baptism is not or should not be a work.... When we conclude we must be baptized to have salvation i see baptism as a work. A work of man, a work to compete with the Cross of Christ.
Salvation brings on baptism. Baptism does not bring on salvation.

 

[Webb]

Reba---When will we ever learn that anything God tells us to DO is not a work or man, not a work of our own merit, not a work of human righteousness, but a work of God. John 6:29 says faith ( belief ) is a work of God but we must do the believing. Now answer me this: is belief in Christ therefore tod be discarded because we have to DO the believing? The answer to that question is like asking "is the pope a Catholic?" Read Mk.16:16---Believe Jesus! We will be judged by His words, Jn.1248

 

[reba]

Reba---When will we ever learn that anything God tells us to DO is not a work or man, not a work of our own merit, not a work of human righteousness, but a work of God. John 6:29 says faith ( belief ) is a work of God but we must do the believing. Now answer me this: is belief in Christ therefore tod be discarded because we have to DO the believing? The answer to that question is like asking "is the pope a Catholic?" Read Mk.16:16---Believe Jesus! We will be judged by His words, Jn.1248

We can and do take simple things and make them into something else... We by doing things OUR way can take what God means for good and mess it up.

I have not discarded baptism. I have been baptized in the good ol Sacramento river.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How was circumcision not a required act of righteousness to be in covenant with God under the Old Testament? Can you explain your reasoning here?

It was not an act of righteousness that in and of itself secured salvation, just as baptism is not an act of righteousness that in and of itself secures salvation. But that is exactly how the Israelites understood the passage in Genesis. Paul argues the point in Romans to those of the day who, like some in this thread regarding baptism, insisted it was a legalistic act that must be completed for one to be saved:

"...he (Abraham) received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he (already) had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." (Romans 4: NIV parenthesis mine)

His point is, Abraham was already accredited to God through his faith, his circumcision being the sign of the righteousness he already had by faith, apart from works. This is the foundation of Paul's entire ministry. Salvation is given in response to faith in God's promise, specifically the promise of a Son who inherits our blessing for us, not in response to doing something righteous, or having it done to you.

Paul even goes so far to say that circumcision is not even a required expression of saving faith (like 'love your neighbor as yourself' is, for example).

"25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." (Romans 2:25-37 NIV)

Here we see him saying that if you keep the requirements of the law (obviously talking about the moral law) but are not circumcised you will condemn the man who is circumcised, yet who does not keep the moral law. In other words, circumcision is not an expected and obligatory expression of saving faith that must be present in a believers life for his faith to be validated as real (as is true for 'love your neighbor as yourself'). I say this is true of baptism, too. I'm not talking about the stubborn willed person who just won't do it. I'm talking about baptism NOT being a legalistic check on a scorecard that must be checked off before one is saved.

We gotta wonder why a professing believer would not want to get baptized, but the reasons I've heard are because they don't want to be seen in runny makeup, or have boogers hanging out of their nose, or have clingy wet clothes pressed onto their bodies for all to see. Pretty innocent reasons for inquiring if you ask me. These have nothing to do with resisting God out of stubborn unbelief.

 

[Asyncritus]

I am completely baffled by all this hoo-hah.

God says 'Get baptized'.

Everybody in the Acts got baptized.

Why all this argument?

 

[Asyncritus]

No, no, no. I asked you to show me that the water Jesus is talking about in John 3 is very specifically water baptism. I know he's talking about water. I want you to show me where Jesus says he's talking about a very literal water baptism. That's what we do not know about the passage. Some say 'water' signifies the water of natural birth. Some say it signifies the water of water baptism. I say it simply doesn't tell us.

Right here:

It is valuable to note, too, that Jesus Himself baptized

Jn 3.22 ¶ After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

It is perfectly clear again that Jesus was baptizing with water - since John makes the comment that : there was much water there, and that John ALSO baptized

If Jesus was baptizing with water - or rather His disciples were doing so on His instructions - then you have no case at all. That is what He is referring to in His remarks to Nicodemus, and to us.

 

[Webb]

Hi Asyncritus---All this froth is because some refuse to believe the only One who can save them--they think they know better than the One Who created the worlds and said "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel tod every creature, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, he that believeth not shall be damned" Mk.16:16. Even the devils believe ( Jas.2 ) and tremble, yet some today refuse to even blush.

 

[Webb]

BUT---by your own admission you were not bapized as Jesus said, to be "saved." Big difference---only ONE baptism, or at least Paul thought so (Eph.4:5). Next I suppose someone will say Paul was wrong like Jesus was.

 

[farouk]

Baptism is not or should not be a work.... When we conclude we must be baptized to have salvation i see baptism as a work. A work of man, a work to compete with the Cross of Christ.
Salvation brings on baptism. Baptism does not bring on salvation.

Exactly.

'Baptismal regeneration' is a serious error.

 

[Asyncritus]

Originally Posted by reba
Baptism is not or should not be a work.... When we conclude we must be baptized to have salvation i see baptism as a work. A work of man, a work to compete with the Cross of Christ.
Salvation brings on baptism. Baptism does not bring on salvation.


Exactly.

'Baptismal regeneration' is a serious error.

You've got the order wrong. Peter says so.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

but the answer of a good conscience toward God,

1 Peter 3:21 ¶ ... it is the appeal of a clear conscience towards God — a thing made possible by the power of Christ’s resurrection. JBP

I really can't understand your saying that baptism is a work of men, Reba.

Peter says (if Phillips is right) that baptism is an APPEAL to God. That is NOT a work of any description.

Second, he says that the power of baptism to save us comes from, or originates in, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. NOT, you note, anything we have DONE, BUT WHAT GOD HAS DONE in raising Him from the dead.

Phillips again: a thing made possible by the power of Christ’s resurrection.

NOT by works, lest any man should boast.