Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[heymikey80]

Peter explains what water baptism is not for, it's not for putting away the filth of the flesh. But nothing in the context changes the simple fact baptism doth also now save us.

Huh. Actually Peter explains what baptism indicates, not what its purpose is. Which is something of a difference. The baptism that does nothing but wash the baptized is not saved: it's the answer from a good conscience that makes it a baptism, not the water that wets the one baptized.

The water is the ceremony instituted by God; but the repentance is the occasion for the ceremony. The ceremony is associated with repentance; but salvation is consequent on the repentance that is indicated by Christian baptism.

 

[heymikey80]

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Apparently Jesus wants us to "DO" something...

Matthew 7:22-24 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:

The workers here did the miraculous, and yet Jesus calls them "workers of iniquity".

In Jesus' own words, it's not what you do, but the fact that "I never knew you" that constitutes their departure as workers of iniquity.

Y'talking about these works?

I certainly haven't denied that the one saved is on practical terms joined by good works. But Scripture doesn't say works cause salvation, quite the opposite, Scripture denies it.

Ep 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Then let's not forget to include...

1 Timothy 2:15----childbearing>>>>>>saved

And, according to Elijah64, women are not saved until they are fully compliant with this requirement.

I do not see that this verse means a woman cannot be saved unless she has a child. What about those women who are phyiscally unable to bear a child? Would this mean a woman could be saved if she has a child but is an atheist?

 

[Eventide]

1)baptism is the point where sins are remitted, Acts 2:38. I remained lost in my unremitted sins until I was water baptized and then in water baptism God did the work of cutting away (remitting) the body of sin, Col 2:12.

I would say that this is true for the Jew.. ie, the Israelite.. although not for the Gentile.

The gospel initially went out to Israel.. to the Jew first.. and then when we read of Israel's continual rejection of the gospel.. Paul was raised up to take the gospel to the GENTILES..

We have scriptural proof that Gentiles received the Spirit of God BEFORE they were baptized.. whereas it seems reversed for Israelites.. they were baptized and then received the gift of the Spirit.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Huh. Actually Peter explains what baptism indicates, not what its purpose is. Which is something of a difference. The baptism that does nothing but wash the baptized is not saved: it's the answer from a good conscience that makes it a baptism, not the water that wets the one baptized.

The water is the ceremony instituted by God; but the repentance is the occasion for the ceremony. The ceremony is associated with repentance; but salvation is consequent on the repentance that is indicated by Christian baptism.

...baptism doth also now save us....

The clear purpose of baptism is given..."save us".

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2, Peter preached the gospel to Jews, accused them of murdering the Messiah with wicked hands. Peter's words "pricked their heart', it made them aware of this sin they committed. They then asked Peter what they must do. Peter's answer for their guilty conscience of sin was baptism for the remission of sins. Baptism remits sins, it is the answer for a good conscience towards God.


In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized. The conjunction 'and' ties the two together making them of equal importance and necessity. But it is being buried in baptism where sins are remitted, where God does the work of cutting away/remitting the body of sin, Col 2:11,12.

 

[stovebolts]

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Apparently Jesus wants us to "DO" something...

Matthew 7:22-24 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:

The workers here did the miraculous, and yet Jesus calls them "workers of iniquity".

In Jesus' own words, it's not what you do, but the fact that "I never knew you" that constitutes their departure as workers of iniquity.

Y'talking about these works?

I certainly haven't denied that the one saved is on practical terms joined by good works. But Scripture doesn't say works cause salvation, quite the opposite, Scripture denies it.

Ep 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Hi Mikey

Lets look a little closer at this can we? ;)

In Jesus' own words, it's not what you do, but the fact that "I never knew you" that constitutes their departure as workers of iniquity.

Y'talking about these works?

You look like you might be fairly versed with the bible. Here, I'll show you what I'm talking about.

Acts 8:13 And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

Here we have Simon not only believing, but also as being baptized. Yet just a little bit later we hear this about him.

Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,

Wow... wonder where his heart was? Oh wait, scripture tells us! :yes

Acts 8:19 saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Spirit.

I think Peter saw right to Simon's heart...

Acts 8:20-21 But Peter said unto him, Thy silver perish with thee, because thou hast thought to obtain the gift of God with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right before God.

Me thinks that Simon is in the "I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

What do you think? Do you think that Simon as a Baptized believer is saved?... Peter is pretty clear, you cant buy God's gift, and you can't buy salvation. ibid: Thy silver perish with thee

Does that clear it up for ya? Now, lets look at the next part.

I certainly haven't denied that the one saved is on practical terms joined by good works. But Scripture doesn't say works cause salvation, quite the opposite, Scripture denies it.

Ep 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Why did you stop at verse 9? Good works are not a sin... and one can do good works without the idea that they are earning their salvation... BTW, did you actually get the idea I believe in somebodies ability to "earn" salvation? If so, I fear you've misunderstood me.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Rom 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Let me ask you a question. Do you think the above passage applies to Simon from Acts 8? This may take some discernment ya know.

 

[Webb]

Hey Jethro--good to hear from you again---what do you know about a denomination? Do you know the church described in the scripture isn't a denomination? Don't you know one can be neither Catholic, protestant nor Jewish but simply only a Christian? Nothing more and nothing less?? Will you discuss this with me on the one-on-one?

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Jethro--good to hear from you again---what do you know about a denomination? Do you know the church described in the scripture isn't a denomination? Don't you know one can be neither Catholic, protestant nor Jewish but simply only a Christian? Nothing more and nothing less??

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I would say that this is true for the Jew.. ie, the Israelite.. although not for the Gentile.

The gospel initially went out to Israel.. to the Jew first.. and then when we read of Israel's continual rejection of the gospel.. Paul was raised up to take the gospel to the GENTILES..

We have scriptural proof that Gentiles received the Spirit of God BEFORE they were baptized.. whereas it seems reversed for Israelites.. they were baptized and then received the gift of the Spirit.

After the events of Acts 2 and 10, the apostles had a meeting in Jerusalem to discuss circumcision in Acts 15. During this meeting Peter said "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles).", verse 11. He simply said Jews and Gentiles are saved in "like manner". The like manner way the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentilies in Acts 10 were saved was by water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48. Only the apostles in Acts 2 were baptized with the Holy Spirit so this is not the like manner way. No bible context says baptism with the Holy Spirit saves/remits sins, therefore baptism with the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation. The purpose of baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 (along with the vision given to Peter) was God's way to nudge the Jews along to the fact that the saving gospel was not meant for the Jews only but also to the Gentiles....and it worked, Acts 11:18.

 

[Eventide]

After the events of Acts 2 and 10, the apostles had a meeting in Jerusalem to discuss circumcision in Acts 15. During this meeting Peter said "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles).", verse 11. He simply said Jews and Gentiles are saved in "like manner". The like manner way the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentilies in Acts 10 were saved was by water baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47,48. Only the apostles in Acts 2 were baptized with the Holy Spirit so this is not the like manner way. No bible context says baptism with the Holy Spirit saves/remits sins, therefore baptism with the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with Cornelius' personal salvation. The purpose of baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 (along with the vision given to Peter) was God's way to nudge the Jews along to the fact that the saving gospel was not meant for the Jews only but also to the Gentiles....and it worked, Acts 11:18.

Well, if this is how you'd like to rationalize away the clear implications of scripture, then we'll simply agree to disagree.. We have scriptural proof that Israelites received the gift of the Spirit after they were baptized, and that Gentiles received the gift of the Spirit before they were baptized.

I wouldn't pretend to understand all that this means.. although it's right there in the holy scriptures for anyone to see.

 

[reba]

Then let's not forget to include...

1 Timothy 2:15----childbearing>>>>>>saved

And, according to Elijah64, women are not saved until they are fully compliant with this requirement.

literalism is fun stuff

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, if this is how you'd like to rationalize away the clear implications of scripture, then we'll simply agree to disagree.. We have scriptural proof that Israelites received the gift of the Spirit after they were baptized, and that Gentiles received the gift of the Spirit before they were baptized.

I wouldn't pretend to understand all that this means.. although it's right there in the holy scriptures for anyone to see.

I gave book, chapters and verses not rationalizations.

Are you able to prove otherwise?

What was the purpose of water baptism for the Jews in Acts 2:38 and the Gentiles in Acts 10:47.48? Remission of sins/salvation.

Again, the Jews in Acts 2 were not baptized with the Holy Spirit and nothing in Acts 10 (or anywhere else) says Cornelious would be saved by being baptized with the Holy Spirit but Cornelius would be saved by "words" (the gospel) that Peter would tell him Acts 11:14. By the order of events, Acts 11:4, the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius before he heard those saving words from Peter. THere was something Cornelius ought to do, Acts 10:6; he would have to "work righteousness" to be accepted with God, v35, and water baptism was what he ought to do, it was how he worked righteousness and was accepted with God.

 

[Eventide]

I gave book, chapters and verses not rationalizations.

Techincally, what you did was use other portions of scripture to try to disprove a simple biblical fact.. imo not very supportive of your assertions.

Are you able to prove otherwise?

If scriptural facts of Israelites receiving the gift of the Spirit after baptism, and Gentiles receing it before baptism, isn't enough for you.. then I'm afraid there's not much more I can offer.

Then of course we have Paul (the Apostle to the GENTILES) saying that God didn't send him to baptize... now that's a little crazy if baptism saves people, isn't it.. ?

Then again, Paul tells us that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.. you can either believe that it's the one in water, or the one which places us into the body of Christ.. (see 1 Cor 12)

 

[Elijah674]

...baptism doth also now save us....

The clear purpose of baptism is given..."save us".

Baptism is the answer of a good conscience towards God. In Acts 2, Peter preached the gospel to Jews, accused them of murdering the Messiah with wicked hands. Peter's words "pricked their heart', it made them aware of this sin they committed. They then asked Peter what they must do. Peter's answer for their guilty conscience of sin was baptism for the remission of sins. Baptism remits sins, it is the answer for a good conscience towards God.

In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized. The conjunction 'and' ties the two together making them of equal importance and necessity. But it is being buried in baptism where sins are remitted, where God does the work of cutting away/remitting the body of sin, Col 2:11,12.

We seem to see this alike? Yet, what has been acknowledged I think, is surely up to what one has been given from the Holy Spirit in leading us? (Rom. 8:14)

And then there are other exceptions as seen in Rom. 2:14-15 + James 4
[17] Therefore to him that [knoweth] to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

And then what has been touched on about the repentant thief.

--Elijah

 

[Webb]

Elijah---You ask about the thief. You continue to have a problem understanding the differerence between the covenants which is why you do not understand sabbath keeping and the thief---such were under the first covenant--we are under the second. But you have had this pointed out before.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hey Jethro--good to hear from you again---what do you know about a denomination? Do you know the church described in the scripture isn't a denomination? Don't you know one can be neither Catholic, protestant nor Jewish but simply only a Christian? Nothing more and nothing less?? Will you discuss this with me on the one-on-one?

Since I do not belong to a denomination, nor defend one, I would have nothing to debate with you about.

Denominations exist because many are sure that what they believe makes them the one true, original, non-denominational, scriptural, Christian church. They don't separate off by themselves in order to distinguish themselves as not being the one true, original, non-denominational, scriptural, Christian church, that's for sure, lol.

It takes time for all of us to learn and grow up into all the truths of the faith. Along the way many have chosen to consider the particular place they are at to be the true collection of correct Christian doctrines. Sadly, many stay there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

THere was something Cornelius ought to do, Acts 10:6; he would have to "work righteousness" to be accepted with God, v35, and water baptism was what he ought to do, it was how he worked righteousness and was accepted with God.

This is completely contrary to the whole counsel of scripture.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior" (1 Titus 3:5-6 NASB)

"8...God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Techincally, what you did was use other portions of scripture to try to disprove a simple biblical fact.. imo not very supportive of your assertions.

I used scripture that shows Jew and Gentile are saved in like manner then I used scripture to show how the Jews in Acts 2 and Gentiles in Acts 10 were saved in like manner by being water baptized.

You have not provided any proof otherwise.

If scriptural facts of Israelites receiving the gift of the Spirit after baptism, and Gentiles receing it before baptism, isn't enough for you.. then I'm afraid there's not much more I can offer.

You have not shown a book, chapter verse that says the Jews in Acts 2 were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Then of course we have Paul (the Apostle to the GENTILES) saying that God didn't send him to baptize... now that's a little crazy if baptism saves people, isn't it.. ?

But Paul did baptize, 1 Cor 1:14,16. 1 Cor 1:12,13 is proof text that baptism is essential.

Then again, Paul tells us that there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.. you can either believe that it's the one in water, or the one which places us into the body of Christ.. (see 1 Cor 12)

Only the Lord could baptize with the Holy Spirit but we have seen where Paul WATER baptized some of the Corinthians himself, 1 Cor 1:14,16.

Jn 3:5-------------Spirit+++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13--------Spirit+++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body.

1 cor 12:13 is where the Corinthians were born again and compared to Jn 3:5 they were plainly WATER baptized, again Paul WATER baptized some of them himself. If you try to erroneously make 1cor 12:13 some kind of spirit baptism then you create two baptisms not one per Eph 4:5.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We seem to see this alike? Yet, what has been acknowledged I think, is surely up to what one has been given from the Holy Spirit in leading us? (Rom. 8:14)

And then there are other exceptions as seen in Rom. 2:14-15 + James 4
[17] Therefore to him that [knoweth] to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

And then what has been touched on about the repentant thief.

--Elijah

The Holy Spirit leads by His word, the bible.

The thief is not an example of NT salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is completely contrary to the whole counsel of scripture.

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior" (1 Titus 3:5-6 NASB)

"8...God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB)

Acts 10:6,35 are scripture, scripture the anti-water baptism crowd have trouble with.

Tts 3:5 is reference to the new birth:

Jn 3:5-------Spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts3:5------Holy Spirit+++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved

Washing of reg, is a reference to water baptism.

2 Tim 1:8,9 baptism is not a work of mine that I thought of to do, baptism came from God and given to man to do. The verse says God's "own purpose and grace which was granted us IN CHRIST". Baptism is the only way to be in Christ. Grace is in Christ, so baptism is the only way to be in Christ where grace that has been granted us is found.