Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?
- Thread starter 7ruth
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His shed blood is just not enough for some folks.
Ok Thanks Jesus You died for me, You hung on that Cross ... you were beaten, sold out, mocked, but that alone is not salvation I ME, must do something. You were not enough, sorry Lord, You tried. The Cross just cant stand alone I must add to it.
Not for me....
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Yes A Christian should be baptized.
Ok Thanks Jesus You died for me, You hung on that Cross ... you were beaten, sold out, mocked, but that alone is not salvation I ME, must do something. You were not enough, sorry Lord, You tried. The Cross just cant stand alone I must add to it.
Not for me....
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Yes A Christian should be baptized.
Jethro Bodine
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Who here is anti-baptist?
This is what I tell all Christians: "Baptism...just do it!"
Water baptism is not mentioned at all in the passage. It does not say we are regenerated by, or through, the washing of the waters of baptism. It says we are regenerated through the washing of the Holy Spirit.
If that is the criteria for work that is required for salvation, why is the law of Moses not work required for salvation based on the criteria of that work coming from God and given to man to do? For surely the Law of Moses "came from God and given to man to do".
I wasn't put into Christ through water baptism. I know many people who were put into Christ before their water baptism, and we have an unqualified Biblical precedent by which we can defend the experience. But for some reason this is one time a Biblical example is not allowed to be used to support the validity of an experience.
Belief and repentance is where grace is granted. Water baptism was the expected and traditional way one repented. Unlike today it wasn't a question of whether one was going to repent and then maybe/ maybe not be baptized. Because of the standing tradition of John's baptism water baptism was synonymous with repentance. Water baptism is a metonymy* for repentance. An understanding that has been lost in the church today and which causes some to view water baptism in and of itself as a work that secures salvation.
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy
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Asyncritus
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Hey JB,
What's all this about the WASHING of regeneration? There's a big AND in front of the RENEWING by the HSp.
Therefore, they are not the same thing.
Isnt it obvious that this is precisely what Jesus meant when when He said that you must be born of WATER (the washing) and of the SPIRIT (the regeneration). Note the order.
Ernest T. Bass
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There is no such thing in the bible as an "unbaptized Christian".
Ernest T. Bass
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Anti-water baptism = baptism is not essential to salvation.
If water baptism is not essential to salvation then there's no point in being baptized.
Jethro Bodine said:
washing of reg. is a reference to water baptism. Again, Tts 3:5 is a reference to the new birth cf Jn 3:5.
Jn 3:5-------Spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
Tts3:5------Holy Spirit+++++++washing of reg>>>>>saved
Being "in the kingdom" and being "saved" are equivalent. Since there is but one way to be saved both verses MUST express the same idea. Washing of reg. is equivalent to water in Jn 3:5 which is a reference to water baptism.
As already noted by Asyncritus, the verse does not say "washing of the HS spirit."
In Jn 3 Jesus told Nicodemus he MUST be born again. This implies that being born again was within the control of Nicodemus, he had the ability to choose to be born again and given the responsibility to be born again. Being born again/being water baptized is commanded so I can choose to be born again/water baptized and I have been given the responsibilty to be born again/be water baptized...I MUST be born again/water baptized.
On the other hand, you cannot tell me I MUST be "spirit baptized" for that is out of my control. Nowhere does the bible command me to be spirit baptized so I have no responsibility in this. Spirit baptism does not take place today, but if it did then God would be the Administerer of it and have 100% control over who would and would not be "spirit baptized". How would God determine who He would and would not baptize with the spirit? And if I was not baptized with the spirit, who's fault is that? God's .
But if I choose to not be water baptized and shirk that responsibility given to me, then that is 100% my fault.
Jethro Bodine said:
It was God's choice to make water baptism the point where He remits sins and saves. Just like the work of believing came from God and God has given this work to man to do, Jn 6:27-29.
Jethro Bodine said:
The bible shows that baptism is the only way one can get in Christ, Gal 3:27. There is not a single verse that says faith only puts one in Christ. Show me the verse that says something other than baptism puts one in Christ.
Jethro Bodine said:
Jethro Bodine said:
The verse says "grace which was granted us IN CHRIST". This means that grace is only found in Christ and nowhere else. So if I desire to be in God's grace, then I must be in Christ and again, baptism is the only way to be in Christ, to be in grace.
Baptism is not a metonymy for repentance, they are two separate things. In Acts 2:38 Peter commanded them to repent AND be baptized. Repentance is to make a change, to repent of sin and turn one's life away from living is sin. Baptism is where sins are remitted, where God cuts away the body of sin, col 2:11,12. One can repent all he cares to, but he will not have his those sins remitted/forgiven till he is baptized.
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Asyncritus
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Sorry to be so late coming back.
The fact that Jesus Himself was baptized at the age of approximately 30 should surely tell you that babies are not baptized?
Just curious - what's with all this Latin (?) in your signature?
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Asyncritus
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I see a couple of references to Jn 3.16- 18 in the correspondence.
I missed this most important point until one member (Former Christian. Where's he, by the way?) pointed it out. It is of huge significance in this discussion, because of the wish of some to separate belief and baptism.
AV 3.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Greek:
16 ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
The word εις does not mean IN as a rule. It means INTO.
To establish this, the very next verse says:
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
17 ου γαρ απεστειλεν ο θεος τον υιον αυτου εις τον κοσμον ινα κρινη τον κοσμον αλλ ινα σωθη ο κοσμος δι αυτου
Clearly, He did not send His Son IN the world, He sent Him INTO the world.
Which was a surprise to me to find that out. So what is the significance of that change from IN to INTO?
How can you BELIEVE INTO Christ?
In the light of what several contributors have said, it clearly means that one BELIEVES the gospel, and is baptised INTO Christ. Rom 6 makes this abundantly clear:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ εβαπτισθημεν εις χριστον were baptized into his death?
So from the above, it is perfectly clear that even in Jn 3.16, belief carries the direct implication of being baptised into Christ.
Doesn't leave much room for argument, does it?
I missed this most important point until one member (Former Christian. Where's he, by the way?) pointed it out. It is of huge significance in this discussion, because of the wish of some to separate belief and baptism.
AV 3.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Greek:
16 ουτως γαρ ηγαπησεν ο θεος τον κοσμον ωστε τον υιον αυτου τον μονογενη εδωκεν ινα πας ο πιστευων εις αυτον μη αποληται αλλ εχη ζωην αιωνιον
The word εις does not mean IN as a rule. It means INTO.
To establish this, the very next verse says:
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
17 ου γαρ απεστειλεν ο θεος τον υιον αυτου εις τον κοσμον ινα κρινη τον κοσμον αλλ ινα σωθη ο κοσμος δι αυτου
Clearly, He did not send His Son IN the world, He sent Him INTO the world.
Which was a surprise to me to find that out. So what is the significance of that change from IN to INTO?
How can you BELIEVE INTO Christ?
In the light of what several contributors have said, it clearly means that one BELIEVES the gospel, and is baptised INTO Christ. Rom 6 makes this abundantly clear:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ εβαπτισθημεν εις χριστον were baptized into his death?
So from the above, it is perfectly clear that even in Jn 3.16, belief carries the direct implication of being baptised into Christ.
Doesn't leave much room for argument, does it?
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handy
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Not going to be around much to participate in this discussion, but sitting here eating breakfast before taking off and I did want to respond to this, Reba...
I don't think it can be stressed enough that the "work" of water baptism isn't anything we do... sure we go down in the water, we come up out of it wet. Big deal..
What makes baptism any different from swimming or taking a bath?
The work of the Holy Spirit during our baptism, that's what. The washing of baptism is part of the work of the cross... not our work, I'm not sure why anyone thinks we actually do anything when we're baptized. We don't. But the Holy Spirit does. He joins us to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I've posted a number of Scriptures now that show this as have others. Far from discrediting the cross, we validate the cross via our water baptism.
I know it's a result of faulty teaching of many churches for many years, but we need to recognize that we are being very presumptuous to say that baptism is a "work" we do.
Jethro said:
I'm sort of responding on the fly here, so I'm unfamiliar with the unqualified Biblical precedent by which you can defend the experience of being put into Christ before water baptism that you've put forth... I just don't have the time to review all the posts to find it.
The one I think of is Acts 10:44-48 in which the Spirit was poured out among the Gentiles and they showed the signs of the Spirit, so we know they were definitely in Christ...
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “ Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?†48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
However, it's important to note that they were to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ even after they had the Spirit poured upon them.
This would be a very important question for anyone who thinks we do not need our water baptism to answer... Given that these Gentile believers were clearly blessed by the Spirit, no doubts about that.... why would they need water baptism?
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Asyncritus
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Shouldn't we also note that the Ethiopian eunuch was baptised (Acts 8), and there is no mention of HSp activity apart from a preacher (Philip) and the scriptures (the book of Isaiah)?
How on earth did that happen?
How on earth did that happen?
heymikey80
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Acts 8 doesn't override what Jesus precisely and definitively said -- and you quoted: "I never knew you."
Believing something about another, is not saving faith. One is an opinion about a fact. The other is reliance.
And yet what was Simon gonna do? Give people the Holy Spirit!!
Good work. Bad reliance.
It's clear that salvation is "not of works, lest anyone should boast"
Why didn't you address verse 9??
"not of works" does remove the idea of salvation being from our works. It can't be a part, it can't be a mix. Because it's "not of works".
v. 10 indicates that works are a result of new creation, in Christ Jesus. That doesn't happen before faith, but after. So faith results in works. But salvation is not of works. Paul just said so (v. 9).
Obviously Simon was going to give people the Holy Spirit. As I said: Good work. Bad faith.
Jethro Bodine
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I know you are Biblically literate, so this is not a trick question. Can you think of the occasion in scripture where baptism is referred to as being done to 'fulfill all righteousness'? It's clearly portrayed as a 'work' of righteousness, just as many of the law of Moses' works were works of righteousness, yet which we plainly know to not be works in and of themselves through which we gain salvation despite them being the fulfillment of righteousness, like baptism.
You got it...Cornelius and his family. I was accepted by God and received the Holy Spirit the same time they did...before baptism. Arguments that say it is impossible for that to happen, and that it's not scriptural, and breaks God's set rules on when and how he saves people mean nothing to people to whom the Holy Spirit was indeed given before water baptism in the same fashion that Cornelius and his family received it.
Peter tells us...and it is not for reason of literally being saved, but for powerful witness, mainly for our own benefit. Even though the words are there that say this, it is more easily understood and accepted by those who have had that truth demonstrated for them in their own baptism experience. A commitment to live in repentance and righteousness for God kept in secret is the commitment that is most vulnerable to failure for it has made no visible declaration for which to be accountable to. It's like the dieter who caves in so easily to the Shoney's buffet bar because no one knows they've made a commitment to not over eat.
So, it is indeed commanded and required, just not for receiving the Holy Spirit in salvation, if you already have the Holy Spirit. It's how one cements his "pledge of a good conscience toward God" (1 Peter 3: NIV), for his own benefit. Baptism is a wonderfully powerful launch into a committed life for Jesus. God knows this, so he has commanded it for that purpose (think John's baptism). And if it so happens that you get the Holy Spirit at that time, so be it. That is also most certainly Biblical and not to be argued with.
Jethro Bodine
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The Holy Spirit washes us, and renews us. How is it that 'and' cannot be describing two things that the Holy Spirit does for us? I was regenerated AND renewed by the Holy Spirit, not water. From there you have to imply that can only happen at water baptism. It's certainly Biblical that that happens. But it is also Biblical that can happen before and apart from water baptism.
How can you use a passage of scripture that neither you nor I can prove what Jesus was talking about in regard to 'water' to prove another passage?
Ernest T. Bass
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Christ shed His blood for everyone, does that mean everyone will be saved? No, because to have that blood that was shed some 2000 years ago to wash away my sins today requires that I obey Christ's will, Heb 5:9. Not everyone will obey so everyone will not avail Christ's shed blood.
Rev 1:5 John said Christ 'washed us from our sins in his own blood'. John 19:34, that blood was shed in Christ's death. So we have to have a way to access Christ's death to reach the blood that was shed in His death and by no coincidence it is baptism that puts one in Christ's death, Rom 6:3-6.
If you sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, then how did Christ's blood wash away your sins, and why your sins and not everyone's sins? What distinguished you from others that your sins are washed away but their sins are not?
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Asyncritus
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I prefer scripture to your experience JB - and scripture is extremely clear about the matter.
I don't imagine that you would exalt your experience over and above scripture - because if you would, we don't really have anything to talk about.
I don't quite know what you mean here. Born of water and the spirit is pretty plain. So where's the confusion?
Jethro Bodine
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You're right, I wouldn't. But as it is I don't need to do that.
I have the very clear case in the Bible of Cornelius and his family being accepted and put into the family of God via the Holy Spirit before and apart from their water baptism. That is how it happened for me, too. I didn't know about Cornelius and all the debates about water baptism when I believed in Christ and was born again and made new by the Holy Spirit 2 months before my water baptism. It just happened that way. And it's impossible to invalidate my experience on the basis of it not being supported by scripture. Cornelius was born again the same way.
Show me where Jesus plainly says he is talking about the waters of baptism. Don't tell me it's understood. It's not. I know both arguments that it's referring to water baptism and it's referring to literal human birth. Both can be defended to one extent or another (though one much more reasonably), but it's just a cold hard fact that we simply do not know from the text what Jesus meant by 'water' in John 3. It's impossible to use it as a defense for other debatable passages about baptism.
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Asyncritus
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I'll only use John's gospel here, and will highlight the passages where it's literal water.:
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
John 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
John 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
John 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
John 4:7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
John 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
John 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
John 4:46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
John 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
John 5:4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
John 5:7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water
There only 4 cases where there is any possibility of doubt as to exactly what the water was.
That's in John's gospel.
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
Matthew 14:28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
Matthew 14:29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
Matthew 17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Mark 14:13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luke 8:23 But as they sailed he fell asleep: and there came down a storm of wind on the lake; and they were filled with water, and were in jeopardy.
Luke 8:24 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
Luke 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luke 22:10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
In the other 3 gospels there is never anything remotely 'spiritual' or possibly confusing.
On those grounds, therefore, it is perfectly obvious that the 'water' in Jn 3.5 is literal water.
It is valuable to note, too, that Jesus Himself baptized
Jn 3.22 ¶ After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
It is perfectly clear again that Jesus was baptizing with water - since John makes the comment that : there was much water there, and that John ALSO baptized
If Jesus was baptizing with water - or rather His disciples were doing so on His instructions - then you have no case at all. That is what He is referring to in His remarks to Nicodemus.
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handy
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Again, drive-by posting, so hopefully, I'm addressing this concern adequately...
You speak of Jesus' baptism and He answered John's discomfort at baptising Him with "“Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.â€
However, I still do not see the jump to equate baptism as a work of righteousness on our part.
The call is "Repent and be baptized"... The "repent" part is on us (not going into Calvinistic beliefs of unmerited favor here) but the righteousness of baptism involves the work of the Spirit in us. Even though Jesus was wholly righteous at the time, He submitted to the work of the Spirit in baptism, most likely looking forward to the time He would take on our sin.
"Fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness" is a most excellent way to explain this, unsurprisingly, given the source...
The righteousness of Christ is fulfulled in us during our water baptism.... the Spirit puts to death the old unrighteous man and brings alive the new creation, righteous in Christ.
Hopefully, this makes sense, I'm not even at home now and am just taking a bit of a break...
It's just important to realize that our water baptism is just as much a work of the Spirit as our regeneration is. Over the years, the Church, in her many divisions have muddied this... some openly teaching that water baptism is a "work" of man's... it isn't. Getting wet is might be considered a rather paltry work of man's (simply because we do need to go down into the waters), but the effectual part of water baptism is wholly of the Spirit.
Perhaps you could give some Scriptural support for baptism being equated with the rightousness of Moses... the only thing I can think of, and I can't think of the reference at the moment, is where baptism is equated with circumcision...but again, the effects of circumcision... the "circumcision of the heart" as it were, was an act of God's... after all, baby's were circumcised at 8 days... a baby cannot fulfill an act of righteousness of his own accord.
You speak of Jesus' baptism and He answered John's discomfort at baptising Him with "“Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.â€
However, I still do not see the jump to equate baptism as a work of righteousness on our part.
The call is "Repent and be baptized"... The "repent" part is on us (not going into Calvinistic beliefs of unmerited favor here) but the righteousness of baptism involves the work of the Spirit in us. Even though Jesus was wholly righteous at the time, He submitted to the work of the Spirit in baptism, most likely looking forward to the time He would take on our sin.
"Fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness" is a most excellent way to explain this, unsurprisingly, given the source...
The righteousness of Christ is fulfulled in us during our water baptism.... the Spirit puts to death the old unrighteous man and brings alive the new creation, righteous in Christ.
Hopefully, this makes sense, I'm not even at home now and am just taking a bit of a break...
It's just important to realize that our water baptism is just as much a work of the Spirit as our regeneration is. Over the years, the Church, in her many divisions have muddied this... some openly teaching that water baptism is a "work" of man's... it isn't. Getting wet is might be considered a rather paltry work of man's (simply because we do need to go down into the waters), but the effectual part of water baptism is wholly of the Spirit.
Perhaps you could give some Scriptural support for baptism being equated with the rightousness of Moses... the only thing I can think of, and I can't think of the reference at the moment, is where baptism is equated with circumcision...but again, the effects of circumcision... the "circumcision of the heart" as it were, was an act of God's... after all, baby's were circumcised at 8 days... a baby cannot fulfill an act of righteousness of his own accord.
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elijah23
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The Lord judges us on our behavior, not whether or not we've had a "proper" baptism.