Do you make ubelievers angry?

[Jethro Bodine]

It would depend. I would not run up to every person I see smoking and demand they stop.

Demand they stop?

That is NOT witnessing. What the religious right has done in the media is NOT witnessing.

On the other hand, I would immediately warn them if they attempted to enter an open elevator shaft should they not be paying attention.

Witnessing is waking people up to the truth of the open elevator shaft that lies ahead.

I don't believe that to be true. I have parents who are heavy smokers, so I know what you speak of when you mention defensive responses. They know it is bad for them. I have never experienced anything like that with regard to the gospel.

You're not a Christian. How can you be a witness to the gospel?

I don't think it is that simple. For many, especially those who were raised either Christian or in a Christian environment but who have rebelled against its strictures, it can certainly have the effect of dredging up unwanted guilt.

Which is a good illustration of how what's going on in the hearer is why an otherwise polite and compassionate message stirs offense in a person, but a person who then blames the message.

It's interesting that I have noticed that the most resistant people I've talked to about God and the Bible are former Catholics. That tells me something, but not about Christianity, nor about those people...but let's not go there, lol.

And for others, it certainly can be perceived as persecution, especially if their lifestyle has been subject to significant social stigma. But I believe there must also be people like myself for whom neither of these conditions are met. I would not mind discussing the gospel with anyone interested in talking about it with me.

Well, you would represent the handful of unbelievers who I talked to that could talk calmly and rationally about the gospel.

I learned it really just comes down to what a person thinks about what the Bible says is sin and God's justice in judging it. That seems to be what keeps people from coming to faith in Christ...not disputable facts about science, or supposed contradictions, and things like that. It seems almost without exception that after you wade through those things you see they are really still in the great debate with God about how and why they are guilty. It's impossible to come to faith in Christ while that debate rages on in a person.

You can't make a person believe and accept what God says about sin and the judgment to come. You can only educate them on what the Bible says and let God do the convicting and leave any hope of them responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit with him. After all, that is how each of us came to faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Everyone is new at one point or another. It seems only fitting that we make it as pleasant experience as possible.

...and then devour them in the theology threads, lol!

Like lambs to the slaughter.

 

[Destructus86]

I almost never make people angry...and I don't hide being a Christian. Of course there are some that ARE angry towards me...but it's nothing I did, they were angry before they met me...they just despite Christianity. But I RARELY make anyone angry directly. When you love others...people tend to respond positively to that.

 

[Classik]

I almost never make people angry...and I don't hide being a Christian. Of course there are some that ARE angry towards me...but it's nothing I did, they were angry before they met me...they just despite Christianity. But I RARELY make anyone angry directly. When you love others...people tend to respond positively to that.

Interesting.

 

[Destructus86]

Interesting.

It's what Jesus taught us to be like thousands of years ago.
Funny enough...the people Jesus made angry the most were other self proclaimed christians. (like the pharisees...and even made his own disciples frustrated on occassion)

 

[The Unbeliever]

Demand they stop?

That is NOT witnessing. What the religious right has done in the media is NOT witnessing.

I would not go to every person I see smoking at inform them of the health hazards they were risking and the benefits of stopping either.

You're not a Christian. How can you be a witness to the gospel?

But others can witness to me. This is what I meant, that I do not experience that sort of defensiveness when the gospel is brought up.

Which is a good illustration of how what's going on in the hearer is why an otherwise polite and compassionate message stirs offense in a person, but a person who then blames the message.

Yes, with this class of individuals, it is likely that you will not be able to bring up the gospel without causing them discomfort. Many will respond to this discomfort with hostility towards the messenger. But this is not everyone, but only one subset of the non-Christian population.

It's interesting that I have noticed that the most resistant people I've talked to about God and the Bible are former Catholics. That tells me something, but not about Christianity, nor about those people...but let's not go there, lol.

Agreed. I will not go there.

Well, you would represent the handful of unbelievers who I talked to that could talk calmly and rationally about the gospel.

Thank you.

I learned it really just comes down to what a person thinks about what the Bible says is sin and God's justice in judging it.

I think this is more true of the first subset I mentioned. For myself, however, it has nothing to do with what the Bible says about sin and God's justice. It really is about God not being there. And I think for many people from other religious traditions, they really have no reason to even consider switching to Christianity, at least not until they find some reason to be discontented with their own tradition. Most of the Muslims I have spoken feel no reason to consider Christianity and certainly aren't wrestling with Biblical harmatology and divine justice.

 

[The Unbeliever]

...and then devour them in the theology threads, lol!

Like lambs to the slaughter.

That is entirely possible. I remember my own introduction to forums like this. I know I did a lot more reading than posting. It can be intimidating for a beginner, that is for sure.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think this is more true of the first subset I mentioned. For myself, however, it has nothing to do with what the Bible says about sin and God's justice.

I believe that to be possible. I've been careful to not make what I think about it an absolute. I just noticed that almost everyone who was resisting the gospel was also engaged in the great debate with what is sin and what is not (or should not be sin), and God's injustice in holding it against us.

It really is about God not being there.

Which is the other half of what I observed about people still engaged in the great debate about sin, righteousness, and the Judgment to come. They wondered about the very existence of God. And I realized that, Biblically, that is ultimately what will happen when a person rejects God's message sent into the world by the Holy Spirit about sin and the justice of God. It reasons that, ultimately, a person cannot reject the voice of God and then expect to be able to retain God's revelation of himself that he made through that voice. The voice of God in the world via the Holy Spirit IS the proof he gives that he exists. But if a person rejects the way God reveals himself to the world as being real, how can that person have faith that God and the gospel are real?

And I think for many people from other religious traditions, they really have no reason to even consider switching to Christianity, at least not until they find some reason to be discontented with their own tradition. Most of the Muslims I have spoken feel no reason to consider Christianity and certainly aren't wrestling with Biblical harmatology and divine justice.

I agree. If religion remains a 'pick and choose' kind of thing, you'll most likely stay with what you know or something similar.

To me it's interesting to note that Muslims who have converted do so because they realize there is no provision for the cleanness of forgiveness, or surety of salvation in their religion, only fear, and the weight of trying to save yourself through your personal effort at good works.

Only Christianity provides the comfort of forgiveness, apart from the condition of works to earn that forgiveness, and the surety of salvation, because Christianity stands alone as the only religion that forgives sin and gives the surety of salvation through faith...faith in that which does save--the sacrifice of Christ given on our behalf, as opposed to that which does not save, but which so many people in the world thinks saves--self effort at doing right.

 

[elijah23]

Should we, at least sometimes, make those in the world (and possibly some Christians, too) angry? I know we're told to expect persecution. But what about infuriating people?

I think I'm starting to anger some unbeliever acquaintances. I'm not even a good Christian yet. I'm just trying to be decent. Is the anger what leads to the persecution? Some of these people--gay dudes in particular, for some reason--just don't seem at all pleased with my progress and transformation.

What about you? Do you make/have you made unbelievers angry, for no partiulcar reason? Or for a good reason?

I seem to make believers more angry than unbelievers. I think believers are often prideful. On the other hand, I don't hang around unbelievers, so how would I know?

 

[Aardverk]

I seem to make believers more angry than unbelievers. I think believers are often prideful.................

That is my experience too.

My explanation is that believers often have very fixed ideas with little ability to recognize that they are basing their rigid beliefs on assumption, interpretation, selective rejection and guesswork. If you point that out to them, they do tend to get angry but will very rarely make any attempt to justify their beliefs, they will just say things like, "I am discerning" :dunno rather than, 'I have simply chosen to believe the Bible despite everything else' - which is of course the truth for educated people.

For clarity, I am happy to state that, I know nothing about the origins of the universe, the true nature of Jesus etc. I am just guessing, based on the evidence that I have seen. That is why I like hearing other people's explanations; maybe someone will one day make me 'discerning' too :silly

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...maybe someone will one day make me 'discerning' too :silly

It's not about discernment. It's about honestly and humbly accepting what God speaks to mankind in their hearts about sin and his justice in judging it.

It's all by design. HE is the one doing the discerning...discerning the hearts of men to see if they'll accept the truth about who they are apart from Him and will come to him in total surrender and who will populate the land and kingdom of righteousness to come.

 

[Aardverk]

It's not about discernment. It's about honestly and humbly accepting what God speaks to mankind in their hearts ........

Oh, I do agree Jethro. What do you recommend if God does not speak to mankind in their hearts? Pretend? :halo

 

[Davies]

Oh, I do agree Jethro. What do you recommend if God does not speak to mankind in their hearts? Pretend? :halo

Hi Aardverk,

I'm not answering for Jethro, but this verse immediately jumped to mind.

Romans 1:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

I'd say the love of God has spoken the loudest through the cross.

I like the Romans 3:3-4 tag.

- Davies

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, I do agree Jethro.

Oh, so you really do believe in voices?

What do you recommend if God does not speak to mankind in their hearts? Pretend? :halo

Then you are still dead in your sins. I've been through this thought process a lot. At your age I doubt God has not spoken to your heart somewhere in your past. Honestly, if he had not I don't think you'd care if he did or not and would not be poking around in Christian forums for the reason you say you are.

Those of us who have been there know that salvation occurs when you realize you are entirely at the mercy of God to be saved, without a single defense, guilty through and through, and that there is no possible way to get from here to there.

11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ (Luke 18:11,13 NIV1984)


Which one most closely matches your experience? From the rest of the passage, which one did Jesus say resulted in justification? Jesus says it's the one that you plainly reject.

Some people get really angry and defensive when you share this stuff with them. Others take it to heart and follow in the way of the tax collector who humbled himself and was justified before God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hi Aardverk,

I'm not answering for Jethro, but this verse immediately jumped to mind.

Romans 1:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

I'd say the love of God has spoken the loudest through the cross.

I like the Romans 3:3-4 tag.

- Davies

I thought about going here, too, but I didn't want to take on the added burden at this time of addressing the points he may potentially bring up about it.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Which is the other half of what I observed about people still engaged in the great debate about sin, righteousness, and the Judgment to come. They wondered about the very existence of God. And I realized that, Biblically, that is ultimately what will happen when a person rejects God's message sent into the world by the Holy Spirit about sin and the justice of God. It reasons that, ultimately, a person cannot reject the voice of God and then expect to be able to retain God's revelation of himself that he made through that voice. The voice of God in the world via the Holy Spirit IS the proof he gives that he exists. But if a person rejects the way God reveals himself to the world as being real, how can that person have faith that God and the gospel are real?

Why didn't it work that way for me then? I had no objections to the Bible, either about sin, righteousness or judgment before I lost faith in God.

To me it's interesting to note that Muslims who have converted do so because they realize there is no provision for the cleanness of forgiveness, or surety of salvation in their religion, only fear, and the weight of trying to save yourself through your personal effort at good works.

Only Christianity provides the comfort of forgiveness, apart from the condition of works to earn that forgiveness, and the surety of salvation, because Christianity stands alone as the only religion that forgives sin and gives the surety of salvation through faith...faith in that which does save--the sacrifice of Christ given on our behalf, as opposed to that which does not save, but which so many people in the world thinks saves--self effort at doing right.

Just as Christians who have converted to Islam do so for reasons that reflect the differences between Islam and Christianity, only with Islam cast in the better light.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why didn't it work that way for me then? I had no objections to the Bible, either about sin, righteousness or judgment before I lost faith in God.

I don't know. I've been careful to leave room for the person who accepts all things about sin and judgment in the Bible as being true but who still turn away from the faith. But I noticed that among all the people I talked to about God (dozens) that a peculiar thing that was common to those who didn't believe were still engaged in the debate with the God of the Bible about the definition of sin and God's justice in holding it against mankind. The more fierce the debate they had with God, the angrier they were when talking about it. So it really wasn't a matter of being able to believe in God, but a matter of being able to believe (accept) what God says about sin and justice.

I don't remember exactly, but I thought you were in disagreement about some things the Bible says is sin, like homosexuality. I'd actually be surprised if you agreed that everything the Bible says is sin really is wrong for mankind to do.

Just as Christians who have converted to Islam do so for reasons that reflect the differences between Islam and Christianity, only with Islam cast in the better light.

The common reason I heard that people convert to Islam is the fact that it gives them a sense of having done something to facilitate their reconciliation with God. Which fits in nice with the natural propensity of man to think that you make yourself good by doing good things. A belief ultimately based on pride. This is the very antithesis of the Christian faith.

The demands of works based religions, which include polluted forms of Christianity, give people who think you do good in order to be declared good before God (and thus earn salvation) the sense of satisfaction they are looking for. And the work they think does that is often meaningless religious rituals, which abound in the religions of the world. Sadly, this attitude has virtually overtaken the church to form what I call the 'church of the world'. Paul refers to it as 'having a form of godliness but denying its power' (2 Timothy 3:5 NIV1984). If that doesn't describe the church of the world, nothing does. I'm convinced this is also what Jesus was referring to when he spoke of the leaven 'working through the whole batch'.

 

[The Unbeliever]

I don't remember exactly, but I thought you were in disagreement about some things the Bible says is sin, like homosexuality. I'd actually be surprised if you agreed that everything the Bible says is sin really is wrong for mankind to do.

I do have disagreements with the Bible, but that was only subsequent my loss of faith in God. If there is no God then many things that Christianity proclaims are true no longer hold the same moral certitude.

The common reason I heard that people convert to Islam is the fact that it gives them a sense of having done something to facilitate their reconciliation with God. Which fits in nice with the natural propensity of man to think that you make yourself good by doing good things. A belief ultimately based on pride. This is the very antithesis of the Christian faith.

I haven't seen that as a common reason. More often the simplicity and intuitive truth of its doctrines combined with its holistic approach to life seem to be the main appeal. Perhaps we have just encountered different Muslims however. I have read several testimonies though, and it did not seem to me that pride was a significant motivating factor in these conversions.

The demands of works based religions, which include polluted forms of Christianity, give people who think you do good in order to be declared good before God (and thus earn salvation) the sense of satisfaction they are looking for. And the work they think does that is often meaningless religious rituals, which abound in the religions of the world. Sadly, this attitude has virtually overtaken the church to form what I call the 'church of the world'. Paul refers to it as 'having a form of godliness but denying its power' (2 Timothy 3:5 NIV1984). If that doesn't describe the church of the world, nothing does. I'm convinced this is also what Jesus was referring to when he spoke of the leaven 'working through the whole batch'.

I am fairly certain that Islam does not prescribe works in order to earn salvation. Rather, the Qur'an says that God accepts true repentance and forgives. Perhaps you are referring the five pillars of Islam, but those are prescriptions for proper worship, not to earn forgiveness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do have disagreements with the Bible, but that was only subsequent my loss of faith in God. If there is no God then many things that Christianity proclaims are true no longer hold the same moral certitude.

How does there being no God make it okay to do things that hurt other people? We already know from experience it doesn't work for people to judge for themselves what does and doesn't hurt other people, and when. By nature we are a very selfish, short sided people.

 

[Aardverk]

Oh, so you really do believe in voices?

Many people hear voices in their heads Jethro. I never have, despite many years of humble prayer. By your logic, presumably I have not been chosen? :help

11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers — or even like this tax collector .

Hmmm, that really reminds me of someone I wonder who that could be?