Do you really believe Christ died for you?

[Mohrb]

Most Christians state that they believe Jesus died for their sins... yet, most also believe that Jesus was the one to resurrect himself. That only his body was ever dead, and that at the death of his body, he immediately continued life as a spiritual being. After three days, the miracle of his resurrection was simply him coming back to his human body. Therefore the hope of salvation lies not in the sacrifice and resurrection of the whole being of Jesus... but in the temporary loss of a body Jesus didn't have before his human incarnation anyway. Therefore it was a fresh creation (of a body) that was sacrificed and reclaimed in three days... not the actual life of the Son of God.


Here's how I read the account: Seems to me that God so loved the earth that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life (guess where that came from). I believe that, although he came in a human body, that the sacrifice Jesus made is that he surrendered his very soul for us. That he was completely "asleep in death." Not awake for three days with the power to raise himself... but dead: body, soul, and spirit.

We all agree that his body died for us, but also his soul:
John 10:15 "I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep"
John 15:13 "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends."
Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"
(Notice the greek word "psuche." Some translations translated these three verses as "life" instead of "soul," however the word "soul" always comes from the word "psuche")

And his spirit:
John 19:30 "Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!†and, bowing his head, he delivered up [his] spirit."
(note, the word paredoken, often translated as "give up." It means to give up, yield, forfeit, relinquish. not simply to hand it "upward." Therefore Jesus "giving up his spirit" shows that he forfeited his spirit for us)


Seems to me that it was the whole Son of God that died for our sins... not just a physical shell.

... so what do you think? Do you believe that Jesus died for you? Or do you believe he just sacrificed his body, while "he" stayed alive the whole time? If "life" is defined by a physical human body, does this mean Jesus has always been dead until he was given a body? Was it his "life" that he sacrificed? or just a shell?

 

[archangel_300]

I'm a firm believer that if one is a born again Christian when Christ died on the cross he suffered the wrath of God equivalent to that person spending an eternity under God's wrath for them. For each sin ever committed within that persons life was laid upon Christ as he became the perfect substitute for their sin. I believe God is a perfectly just God and no sin can ever go unpunished in his sight... hence the need for a perfect human substitute for sin.

 

[happyjoy]

If Jesus spirit was destroyed, how could he be God? As God is eternal, and exists at all times. Those two ideas contradict each other.

 

[Danus]

I believe Christ died for me, for all. He took the punishment for the sins of all mankind as a perfect sacrifice on the cross. His Soul/Spirit left his physical body in death. He took his life back up completely in the resurrection....body and soul/spirit. Nothing was destroyed.

 

[Ahuli]

Most Christians state that they believe Jesus died for their sins... yet, most also believe that Jesus was the one to resurrect himself. That only his body was ever dead, and that at the death of his body, he immediately continued life as a spiritual being. After three days, the miracle of his resurrection was simply him coming back to his human body. Therefore the hope of salvation lies not in the sacrifice and resurrection of the whole being of Jesus... but in the temporary loss of a body Jesus didn't have before his human incarnation anyway. Therefore it was a fresh creation (of a body) that was sacrificed and reclaimed in three days... not the actual life of the Son of God.


Here's how I read the account: Seems to me that God so loved the earth that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life (guess where that came from). I believe that, although he came in a human body, that the sacrifice Jesus made is that he surrendered his very soul for us. That he was completely "asleep in death." Not awake for three days with the power to raise himself... but dead: body, soul, and spirit.

We all agree that his body died for us, but also his soul:
John 10:15 "I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep"
John 15:13 "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends."
Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"
(Notice the greek word "psuche." Some translations translated these three verses as "life" instead of "soul," however the word "soul" always comes from the word "psuche")

And his spirit:
John 19:30 "Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!†and, bowing his head, he delivered up [his] spirit."
(note, the word paredoken, often translated as "give up." It means to give up, yield, forfeit, relinquish. not simply to hand it "upward." Therefore Jesus "giving up his spirit" shows that he forfeited his spirit for us)


Seems to me that it was the whole Son of God that died for our sins... not just a physical shell.

... so what do you think? Do you believe that Jesus died for you? Or do you believe he just sacrificed his body, while "he" stayed alive the whole time? If "life" is defined by a physical human body, does this mean Jesus has always been dead until he was given a body? Was it his "life" that he sacrificed? or just a shell?

Jesus, as the Son of Man, died the same way we do. He took on our form, so He could do exactly that.

 

[Mohrb]

I believe Christ died for me, for all. He took the punishment for the sins of all mankind as a perfect sacrifice on the cross. His Soul/Spirit left his physical body in death. He took his life back up completely in the resurrection....body and soul/spirit. Nothing was destroyed.

If his "death" was nothing but his spirit leaving his human body. Does this not define him as "dead" before his human incarnation? If his soul/spirit simply "left his body" but remained intact in themselves... why do you suppose in the three verses listed above it said that Jesus would sacrifice his soul (twice) and that he forfeited his spirit?

And if sin can be made up for with a body being sacrificed while souls continued to "live on" ... what's the need for a sacrifice for all of us? By us dying, would our sins not be completely paid? And then could we not be resurrected into new bodies completely sinless? Couldn't this be extended to if a person has a heart attack, and is declared dead? If they're then shocked back to life... does their death not pay for their own sins? Yet, the majority of Christianity believes that even though Jesus paid for the sins of everyone... and on top of that, almost everyone who's ever existed has died (the price of their own sins paid again), that everyone who didn't understand Jesus to be God would still be tortured forever after death in hell.

if the soul leaving the body constituted "death" ... doesn't everyone who "dies" fully pay for their own sins on top of Jesus' sacrifice?

 

[Danus]

I believe Christ died for me, for all. He took the punishment for the sins of all mankind as a perfect sacrifice on the cross. His Soul/Spirit left his physical body in death. He took his life back up completely in the resurrection....body and soul/spirit. Nothing was destroyed.

If his "death" was nothing but his spirit leaving his human body. Does this not define him as "dead" before his human incarnation? If his soul/spirit simply "left his body" but remained intact in themselves... why do you suppose in the three verses listed above it said that Jesus would sacrifice his soul (twice) and that he forfeited his spirit?

And if sin can be made up for with a body being sacrificed while souls continued to "live on" ... what's the need for a sacrifice for all of us? By us dying, would our sins not be completely paid? And then could we not be resurrected into new bodies completely sinless? Couldn't this be extended to if a person has a heart attack, and is declared dead? If they're then shocked back to life... does their death not pay for their own sins? Yet, the majority of Christianity believes that even though Jesus paid for the sins of everyone... and on top of that, almost everyone who's ever existed has died (the price of their own sins paid again), that everyone who didn't understand Jesus to be God would still be tortured forever after death in hell.

if the soul leaving the body constituted "death" ... doesn't everyone who "dies" fully pay for their own sins on top of Jesus' sacrifice?

To say

If his "death" was nothing but his spirit leaving his human body.

seems to be minimizing the physical death of Christ. That act was Christ sacrifice on the Cross. His physical death. It was not nothing more than his soul leaving his body. Rather is was a suffering physical punishment. It took time to do.

If his soul/spirit simply "left his body" but remained intact in themselves... why do you suppose in the three verses listed above it said that Jesus would sacrifice his soul (twice) and that he forfeited his spirit?

If his soul simply left his body?....it did not simply leave his body. He was tortured to death at the hands of man. He certainly had the power to have his soul "simply" leave his body, but doing that would not have fulfilled prophecy.

Where does sacrifice his soul (twice) come in? To give up your physical life is to give your soul. Is it not? You and I could do that, but we could not then come back in three days and reclaim our bodies.

And if sin can be made up for with a body being sacrificed while souls continued to "live on" ... what's the need for a sacrifice for all of us?

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for mankind because Jesus was God as man. That's why sin of mankind can not be simply paid for (Made up for) by anyone. We deserve death. Jesus did not. He can pay the ultimate price for us because we don't have the cash to cover that check. He does.

By us dying, would our sins not be completely paid? And then could we not be resurrected into new bodies completely sinless? Couldn't this be extended to if a person has a heart attack, and is declared dead? If they're then shocked back to life... does their death not pay for their own sins?

NOPE. We might pay that price but we would not be righteous. So in a sense we would physically die and we would spiritually die. That would cover our debt. But it would not give us the righteousness we need to have life everlasting with God. Since God love us, he made a way for us to be fully righteous.

Yet, the majority of Christianity believes that even though Jesus paid for the sins of everyone... and on top of that, almost everyone who's ever existed has died (the price of their own sins paid again), that everyone who didn't understand Jesus to be God would still be tortured forever after death in hell. if the soul leaving the body constituted "death" ... doesn't everyone who "dies" fully pay for their own sins on top of Jesus' sacrifice?

The soul leaving the body upon physical death is physical death. The only question of that soul is if it is righteous before God. It can not have been righteous on it's own, unless it was that of Christ. So it needs a stand in. it needs to inherit righteousness that it lacks if it is to be with God. That's the best way I can describe the death of Christ and why his death had to happen for all of us to have eternal life.

 

[elijah23]

Yes, I believe Jesus died for me.

 

[frank ledford]

Most Christians state that they believe Jesus died for their sins... yet, most also believe that Jesus was the one to resurrect himself. That only his body was ever dead, and that at the death of his body, he immediately continued life as a spiritual being. After three days, the miracle of his resurrection was simply him coming back to his human body.

Yes I believe that Jesus died in both his humanity and his divinity. However, I do not deny that Jesus raised his own body after three days as the Orthodox teach. Jesus' promised to raise his body as the one sign he would give as his messiahship.

The fact that I acknowledge that Jesus raised his own body leads to evidence that more than the body of Christ was dead. Why? Because Paul introduced himself at the beginning of his epistle to Galatians thus....Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—

Since Jesus promised he would raise his own body then the fact is that God the Father must have raised something else from the dead besides the body of Jesus.

It would take many pages to establish why I believe that which God raised from death was his divine Son. Suffice it to say for the moment that I do not believe that God the Father simply delivered Jesus' human soul from the dead (soul sleep).

Frank

 

[JDMhadto]

How can Jesus take on the punishment that man is supposed to take and live at all?

If punishment for man is hell...

and hell is eternal...

and Jesus died to take on our punishment and sin...

then how is he not in hell for all of eternity?

Paradox, eh?

 

[frank ledford]

How can Jesus take on the punishment that man is supposed to take and live at all?

If punishment for man is hell...

and hell is eternal...

and Jesus died to take on our punishment and sin...

then how is he not in hell for all of eternity?

Paradox, eh?

Not really a paradox. It appears that all those who posted in this thread agree that the death of a human body and separation of body and soul (which most define as the "first death") is not the penalty for sin. As stated by others, the penalty for sin is the "second death". However one defines the second death, including the definition you put forward it would be necessary for Jesus to enter that state or he did not pay the penalty for sin. I agree...

However, God the Father does not have to leave Jesus in that state for the penalty to be paid. The fact that God raised him from that second death does not negate the reality that Jesus willingly subjected himself to eternal death in our stead.

Frank

PS, I do not define the second death as you have, but that is another topic.

 

[Danus]

How can Jesus take on the punishment that man is supposed to take and live at all?

If punishment for man is hell...

and hell is eternal...

and Jesus died to take on our punishment and sin...

then how is he not in hell for all of eternity?

Paradox, eh?

It would be a paradox if Jesus where punished for our sins, but he was not "punished" for our sins; he was a perfect sacrificed for our sins.

Punishment and forgiveness are NOT the same thing. Nor are they synonymous. In other words, if you commit a crime you are punished or forgiven, but not both. Your not forgiven after your punished, you simply take your punishment. You simply pay your debt, but Jesus was God and guilty of nothing. He simply paid our debt that otherwise if we paid it (took the punishment) we would be done. Through that we are offed forgiveness so that we may be made righteous some day.

Just to add something: Jesus suffered on the cross. Was not punished on the cross. Jesus' suffering served as a substitute for our punishment.

 

[samuel]

John 10:15 "I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep"
John 15:13 "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends."
Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"

New translation junk, which is destroying the true word of God. This stuff is from the pits of hell, and is responsible for the destruction of the faith of many. The KJV the only true word of God, has it right the word is LIFE.

 

[frank ledford]

How can Jesus take on the punishment that man is supposed to take and live at all?

If punishment for man is hell...

and hell is eternal...

and Jesus died to take on our punishment and sin...

then how is he not in hell for all of eternity?

Paradox, eh?

It would be a paradox if Jesus where punished for our sins, but he was not "punished" for our sins; he was a perfect sacrificed for our sins.

Punishment and forgiveness are NOT the same thing. Nor are they synonymous. In other words, if you commit a crime you are punished or forgiven, but not both. Your not forgiven after your punished, you simply take your punishment. You simply pay your debt, but Jesus was God and guilty of nothing. He simply paid our debt that otherwise if we paid it (took the punishment) we would be done. Through that we are offed forgiveness so that we may be made righteous some day.

Just to add something: Jesus suffered on the cross. Was not punished on the cross. Jesus' suffering served as a substitute for our punishment.

Danus, I'm sure from your post, that you understand Orthodox Christology .... the incarnate Word of God was inseparably united to his humanity. One person in two complete natures....fully God and fully divine. That Jesus possessed both complete and whole natures in one person....that one person's foundation (hypostasis) was and is the incarnate Word of God the Father. I'm also sure you understand the Orthodox teaching that the human soul in not the foundation of Jesus humanity. You and I are taught in the Orthodox teaching to believe our human soul is our foundation (hypostasis...that which stands under).

I have studied the teaching and do not find it authentic. One of it's greatest problems is the subject of this thread. Did Jesus die in both his humanity and his Divinity? I have come to believe that contrary to Orthodox beliefs the Son of God died in both. The orthodox teach that the Word of God died only in his humanity while his divinity remained impassable and immutable. I can not agree that pays the penalty for sin.

It is entirely possible to be punished and then receive a pardon.

In my present belief that is precisely what happened when Jesus paid the price for humanity. He died ... however you define that .... and once he died .... only an outside source could grant a pardon .... God the Father. That is what scripture teaches. Scripture all noted the promise Jesus made that he would raise his own body after three days. That fact does not negate the fact that he needed to be raised from the dead before he could raise his body.

Thanks for the stimulating conversation.

Frank

 

[Mysteryman]

John 10:15 "I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep"
John 15:13 "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends."
Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"

New translation junk, which is destroying the true word of God. This stuff is from the pits of hell, and is responsible for the destruction of the faith of many. The KJV the only true word of God, has it right the word is LIFE.

Not so fast !

Psuche-- is translated -- Life- 40 times and --- soul - 58 times

Matthew 16:26 - "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world,and lose his own soul ? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul ? " --- "Psuche"

Acts 2:31 - "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his "soul"was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption" < "Psuche" -- KJV

 

[samuel]

John 10:15 "I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep"
John 15:13 "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends."
Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"

Again these verses are just a small example, of how the new translations corrupt the word of God. Going to the Greek is also another way of being led astray, each Greek word can have several different meanings. The translator can take his choice, as did Westcott and Hort, when they translated their Greek corruption of the scriptures.

The proper translation of a word, depends on how it is used in a sentance, and modern translators are so blinded by their own importance, they don't even know how a sentence should be structured. I went the way of modern translations once, until I saw just how corrupt they are. Now I would not teach from one!, for all the money in the World.

 

[Mysteryman]

John 10:15 "I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep"
John 15:13 "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends."
Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"

Again these verses are just a small example, of how the new translations corrupt the word of God. Going to the Greek is also another way of being led astray, each Greek word can have several different meanings. The translator can take his choice, as did Westcott and Hort, when they translated their Greek corruption of the scriptures.

The proper translation of a word, depends on how it is used in a sentance, and modern translators are so blinded by their own importance, they don't even know how a sentence should be structured. I went the way of modern translations once, until I saw just how corrupt they are. Now I would not teach from one!, for all the money in the World.

Hi

By inserting the word "soul" in place of the word "life", it is not corrupting the Word of God ! It is still the same greek word. Plus , when God breathed into the nostriles of the man Adam, man became a living soul.

 

[Bick]

Most Christians state that they believe Jesus died for their sins... yet, most also believe that Jesus was the one to resurrect himself. That only his body was ever dead, and that at the death of his body, he immediately continued life as a spiritual being. After three days, the miracle of his resurrection was simply him coming back to his human body. Therefore the hope of salvation lies not in the sacrifice and resurrection of the whole being of Jesus... but in the temporary loss of a body Jesus didn't have before his human incarnation anyway. Therefore it was a fresh creation (of a body) that was sacrificed and reclaimed in three days... not the actual life of the Son of God.


Here's how I read the account: Seems to me that God so loved the earth that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life (guess where that came from). I believe that, although he came in a human body, that the sacrifice Jesus made is that he surrendered his very soul for us. That he was completely "asleep in death." Not awake for three days with the power to raise himself... but dead: body, soul, and spirit.

We all agree that his body died for us, but also his soul:
John 10:15 "I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep"
John 15:13 "No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his soul in behalf of his friends."
Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"
(Notice the greek word "psuche." Some translations translated these three verses as "life" instead of "soul," however the word "soul" always comes from the word "psuche")

And his spirit:
John 19:30 "Jesus said: “It has been accomplished!†and, bowing his head, he delivered up [his] spirit."
(note, the word paredoken, often translated as "give up." It means to give up, yield, forfeit, relinquish. not simply to hand it "upward." Therefore Jesus "giving up his spirit" shows that he forfeited his spirit for us)


Seems to me that it was the whole Son of God that died for our sins... not just a physical shell.

... so what do you think? Do you believe that Jesus died for you? Or do you believe he just sacrificed his body, while "he" stayed alive the whole time? If "life" is defined by a physical human body, does this mean Jesus has always been dead until he was given a body? Was it his "life" that he sacrificed? or just a shell?

MY COMMENTS: Yes, I believe that Jesus died as a sacrifice for mr sins.....the Whole Person.
Unfortunately, traditional theology has his soul going to "hell", his spirit going to the Father, while only his body is dead in the tomb.
Tradition would have Jesus' "soul" alive with the abilty to see, hear, feel, speak, just like a separate body.
And the same is almost true for his spirit, somehow making it an entiry with all its senses; or combining it with the soul.

A complete study of life and death in the literal Scriptures is highly recommended, otherwise confusion reigns. Let's look at a number of key scriptures:

Gen. 2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul (being) when the breath of the spirit of life was breathed into his nostrils.

SOUL is our senses through which we can experience life. Thus, the soul is the sensation, the thought, the feelings and all that comprises consciousness.

DEATH is said to be a return; it is the opposite of life. Not just the body...the whole man.

Gen. 3:19 "...you are dust and to dust shall you return."
Job 10:9 "...unto dust shall you cause me to return."
Psa. 90:3 "...you cause me to return to dust."

The soul can die or destroyed:
Josh. 10:28 "And that day Joshua took Makkedah and smote it with the edge of the sword and the king thereof....and all the souls therein." See Josh. !0:30,32,35,37,39; Jer. 2:34; Ezek. 13:19 etc.
And this oft quoted one: "The soul that sineth it shall die." Ezek. 18:4

Since our soul is not an entity, upon death it (our senses, thoughts, feelings, sensations etc,) are said to disappear, go to the unseen (sheol--Hebrew; Hades--Greek), Job 33:22; Psa. 16:10; Acts3:23.

Man's spirit may be defined as his life force, and is related to breath.

Concerning the flood: "All in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah--Heb.) of the spirit (ruach) of life, of all that was on the dry land died." Gen. 7:22.

Job 12:10 "In His hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."
Job 34:14-15 "If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to dust."

God forms our spirit within (no doubt as long as we breathe--my comments). See Zech. 12:1.

And when we expire (breathe out our last) our spirit (life force) returns to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7).

So, what is my conclusion? I believe Jesus died and was in the tomb three days and nights just as he prophesied (Matt. 12:39-40).
His soul, his ability to experience human life, "went to the unseen" (Sheol/Hades). His spirit, life force, returned to God his Father who gave it.

 

[needtotalk]

This is all supposed to be as easy to understand as 1-2-3 because the Father reveals His will to infants and people with childlike faith.. Jesus suffered and died for the sins of all mankind, and the Father raised Him from the dead for the forgiveness of sins. We don't need to complicate things when they are so simple in faith.

 

[crusaderbard]

1 Peter 3:19-20 : For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. (NIV)
Christ died in body, went to sheol or hades during his death and preached to the souls of the old testament time period to gather them into Heaven.

If Christ died both a physical and a soul death., then he would not have been able to preach in the three days he was dead in hades.

Also as someone pointed out, God's soul can not die. Neither can a human's; for God created us in his image and we have an eternal soul. When one dies one does not cease to be.