Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is that all there really is to it?Do we want to remain obedient to the Lord of our lives?

You're adding to our salvation.
Yes, it's what we want to do, but it is not how we receive our salvation.

 

[Kathi]

I don't personally, because I find nothing in Scripture that suggests it. I do, however, find much that suggests salvation can be lost.

We need to remember that salvation is something none of us deserve to begin with - but OSAS basically tells us we can take it for granted and get by.

If we're going to be saved, but continue to deliberately live in sin - why shouldn't God take it away?

Hebrews 10 has already been quoted here, so I'll point out John 15:6.
“Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.” - NLT

Let me point out something really important here, because instead of “remain”, the KJV renders it “abide”.

That word in the Greek is μένῃ - and it means to remain, or to stay. So Jesus tells us straight up that if we don’t stay with Him - if we go with Him for awhile and then walk away - we will be cast forth and burned. You can't "stay" with something you never had to begin with.

But like I said above in post #18 is that person really saved?OSAS deals with people who are genuinely saved.

 

[Kathi]

You're adding to our salvation.
Yes, it's what we want to do, but it is not how we receive our salvation.

Is wanting to be obedient to our Lord really adding to our salvation?Isn't that what the Bible calls us to do?
"What does the Bible say about obedience?"

Answer: The Bible has much to say about obedience. In fact, obedience is the essence of the Christian faith. Jesus Himself was “obedient unto death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:8). For Christians, the act of taking up our cross and following Him (Matthew 16:27) means obedience. The Bible makes it clear that we show our love for Jesus by obeying Him in all things: “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Obedience is defined as “dutifully complying with the commands, orders, or instructions of one in authority.” Using this definition, we see the elements of biblical obedience. “Dutifully” means it is our obligation to obey God, just as Jesus fulfilled His duty to the Father by dying on the cross for our sin. “Commands, orders or instructions” speaks to the Scriptures in which God has clearly outlined His commandments and His will. “One in authority” is God Himself, whose authority is total and unequivocal. For the Christian, obedience means complying with everything God has commanded because it is our duty to do so.

Having said that, it is important to understand that it is the spirit of obedience, not the act of obedience, that is important. The Pharisees relentlessly pursued acts of obedience to the law and by doing so became self-righteous, believing that they deserved to go to heaven by what they had done. Heaven, to them, was a reward owed to them for their good deeds, but the Bible tells us that, to God, all our righteous works are as “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). The obedience that was lacking in the Pharisees was brought to light by Jesus, who exposed their heart attitude. Their hypocrisy in obeying the “letter of the law,” but not the spirit of it, characterized their lives, and Jesus rebuked them sharply for it: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity” (Matthew 23:27-28).

Today, man is not called to obey the Law of Moses. That has been fulfilled in Christ. Man is to obey the “Law of Christ,” which is a law of love for one another (Galatians 6:2; John 13:34). Jesus Himself put it in perspective when He answered the question put to Him by Pharisees, “‘Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the prophets hang on these two commandments’” (Matthew 22:36-40).

If we love God, we will obey Him, not always and not perfectly, but our desire is to obey Him and our lives give evidence of that desire. When we love God and obey Him, we naturally have love for one another. Obedience is commanded by God, not only because it glorifies Him when we obey, but because it is the best for us. Obedience brings joy, comfort and peace in a world where such things are hard to find, mainly due to disobedience and rejection of God and His Word.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-obedience.html#ixzz2uHN6oRO0

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't personally, because I find nothing in Scripture that suggests it. I do, however, find much that suggests salvation can be lost.

We need to remember that salvation is something none of us deserve to begin with - but OSAS basically tells us we can take it for granted and get by.

If we're going to be saved, but continue to deliberately live in sin - why shouldn't God take it away?

Hebrews 10 has already been quoted here, so I'll point out John 15:6.
“Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.” - NLT

Let me point out something really important here, because instead of “remain”, the KJV renders it “abide”.

That word in the Greek is μένῃ - and it means to remain, or to stay. So Jesus tells us straight up that if we don’t stay with Him - if we go with Him for awhile and then walk away - we will be cast forth and burned. You can't "stay" with something you never had to begin with.

We cannot lose our salvation.
God is not wishy washy.
He doesn't give us salvation one day and take it away the next.
Romans 14:4;
"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants still or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand".

 

[Matthew G]

But like I said above in post #18 is that person really saved?OSAS deals with people who are genuinely saved.

As I said, Jesus said those who don't stay with Him - which would indicate that they were there to begin with. So if this isn't possible, why would Jesus waste His time talking about it?

 

[Matthew G]

We cannot lose our salvation.
God is not wishy washy.
He doesn't give us salvation one day and take it away the next.
Romans 14:4;
"Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants still or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand".

Then please explain the words of Christ from John 15:6 that I quoted.
Again - He said those who don't "stay" which means they were there at some point and then walk away.

Again - if this isn't possible, as you suggest - why did Jesus waste His time with it?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is wanting to be obedient to our Lord really adding to our salvation?Isn't that what the Bible calls us to do?
"What does the Bible say about obedience?"

Answer: The Bible has much to say about obedience. In fact, obedience is the essence of the Christian faith. Jesus Himself was “obedient unto death, even death on a cross” (Philippians 2:8). For Christians, the act of taking up our cross and following Him (Matthew 16:27) means obedience. The Bible makes it clear that we show our love for Jesus by obeying Him in all things: “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Obedience is defined as “dutifully complying with the commands, orders, or instructions of one in authority.” Using this definition, we see the elements of biblical obedience. “Dutifully” means it is our obligation to obey God, just as Jesus fulfilled His duty to the Father by dying on the cross for our sin. “Commands, orders or instructions” speaks to the Scriptures in which God has clearly outlined His commandments and His will. “One in authority” is God Himself, whose authority is total and unequivocal. For the Christian, obedience means complying with everything God has commanded because it is our duty to do so.

Having said that, it is important to understand that it is the spirit of obedience, not the act of obedience, that is important. The Pharisees relentlessly pursued acts of obedience to the law and by doing so became self-righteous, believing that they deserved to go to heaven by what they had done. Heaven, to them, was a reward owed to them for their good deeds, but the Bible tells us that, to God, all our righteous works are as “filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). The obedience that was lacking in the Pharisees was brought to light by Jesus, who exposed their heart attitude. Their hypocrisy in obeying the “letter of the law,” but not the spirit of it, characterized their lives, and Jesus rebuked them sharply for it: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which indeed appear beautiful outside, but inside they are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so you also appear righteous to men outwardly, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity” (Matthew 23:27-28).

Today, man is not called to obey the Law of Moses. That has been fulfilled in Christ. Man is to obey the “Law of Christ,” which is a law of love for one another (Galatians 6:2; John 13:34). Jesus Himself put it in perspective when He answered the question put to Him by Pharisees, “‘Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the prophets hang on these two commandments’” (Matthew 22:36-40).

If we love God, we will obey Him, not always and not perfectly, but our desire is to obey Him and our lives give evidence of that desire. When we love God and obey Him, we naturally have love for one another. Obedience is commanded by God, not only because it glorifies Him when we obey, but because it is the best for us. Obedience brings joy, comfort and peace in a world where such things are hard to find, mainly due to disobedience and rejection of God and His Word.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-obedience.html#ixzz2uHN6oRO0

Matthew 16:27; - take up your cross and follow me - If you believe that Jesus is the Messiah (salvation happens here), then you will take up your cross and follow him. Otherwise, the good works of taking up your cross is a requirement for salvation. This way of thinking says that what Jesus did for us on the cross wasn't enough. We have to add to it.
John 14:15; - "If you love me, obey my commandments".
If you love me (here is salvation), then you will obey his commandments.

 

[Matthew G]

And just to clarify - I don't mean to imply that salvation can be lost and gained and a daily/weekly/hourly basis. There's a big difference between struggling with sin, and deliberately living in it. When speaking of salvation being lost - it's the deliberate living in sin that's talked about.

 

[Kathi]

Then please explain the words of Christ from John 15:6 that I quoted.
Again - He said those who don't "stay" which means they were there at some point and then walk away.

Again - if this isn't possible, as you suggest - why did Jesus waste His time with it?

But were they really saved from the beginning?Did they truly and genuinly love the Lord?Only God knows the heart.God gives those who truly love Him the Holy Spirit.If a person never did have the Holy Spirit within them how could they lose it?

 

[Matthew G]

But were they really saved from the beginning?Did they truly and genuinly love the Lord?Only God knows the heart.

Exactly, and Jesus was God in the flesh, and He deliberately used the word "stay" - and if God can speak our entire universe into existence, I think He can handle a simple sentence.

Again - it is impossible to "stay" with something you were never with to begin with. This came from the mouth of Christ, not me - so do you mean to imply that Christ was lying, mistaking, or wasting His time by saying so?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Then please explain the words of Christ from John 15:6 that I quoted.
Again - He said those who don't "stay" which means they were there at some point and then walk away.

Again - if this isn't possible, as you suggest - why did Jesus waste His time with it?

You make a good point Matthew.
As I read the passage, I see that Judas was a disciple and yet he did not remain in Jesus. He knew the consequences.
And that's another thread, was Judas ever saved?
I think Jesus said this to let us know that you can't give him lip service and then do whatever you want.
If you are truly saved, then you will want to please Jesus and he gives us the Holy Spirit to help us with that.

 

[Kathi]

Exactly, and Jesus was God in the flesh, and He deliberately used the word "stay" - and if God can speak our entire universe into existence, I think He can handle a simple sentence.

Again - it is impossible to "stay" with something you were never with to begin with. This came from the mouth of Christ, not me - so do you mean to imply that Christ was lying, mistaking, or wasting His time by saying so?

I agree with that.If you never were commited to Christ from the beginning I do not think that person has the Holy Spirit within them.God knows what they will do in the future.

 

[Matthew G]

Exactly, and Jesus was God in the flesh, and He deliberately used the word "stay" - and if God can speak our entire universe into existence, I think He can handle a simple sentence.

Again - it is impossible to "stay" with something you were never with to begin with. This came from the mouth of Christ, not me - so do you mean to imply that Christ was lying, mistaking, or wasting His time by saying so?

And just as another little ditty, I point out Hebrews 6:4-6.
“4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.”

If those people were never saved (i.e. "enlightened") to begin with, then the writer of Hebrews wasted his time, lied, or was mistaken - but as what he wrote was by the inspiration and influence of the Holy Spirit, I don't think any of those three is possible.

 

[Kathi]

You make a good point Matthew.
As I read the passage, I see that Judas was a disciple and yet he did not remain in Jesus. He knew the consequences.
And that's another thread, was Judas ever saved?
I think Jesus said this to let us know that you can't give him lip service and then do whatever you want.
If you are truly saved, then you will want to please Jesus and he gives us the Holy Spirit to help us with that.

Yes,everyone thought because Judas was a disciple that he was a true follower of Jesus.Look what he did.Jesus knew that he would do that.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

But were they really saved from the beginning?Did they truly and genuinly love the Lord?Only God knows the heart.God gives those who truly love Him the Holy Spirit.If a person never did have the Holy Spirit within them how could they lose it?

They can't.
God knows a person's heart.
You said it.
People can fool us but they can't fool God.
If a person's "fruit" is to continually live in sin with no change in their life, then they are not part of us.

 

[Kathi]

They can't.
God knows a person's heart.
You said it.
People can fool us but they can't fool God.
If a person's "fruit" is to continually live in sin with no change in their life, then they are not part of us.

OH YES!!! wolves in sheeps clothing.Just as the Anti-Christ will fool millions on this earth during the Tribulation.But I know that is an End Times issue and belongs on a different thread

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

And just as another little ditty, I point out Hebrews 6:4-6.
“4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.”

If those people were never saved (i.e. "enlightened") to begin with, then the writer of Hebrews wasted his time, lied, or was mistaken - but as what he wrote was by the inspiration and influence of the Holy Spirit, I don't think any of those three is possible.

Being enlightened, according to use in the Bible, is to claim spiritual relation of truth. Nothing more.
If you read the rest of Chapter 6 of Hebrews, the writer compares God's people to those who are not.
Repentance of sins is not the same as renewal of heart.
If you try to repent of your sins first before you receive Jesus, you will fail. Repentance comes after salvation with the help of the Holy Spirit.
Repentance first is a form of "works salvation".

 

[gr8grace3]

I see all this focus on the sinner and the believer. Eternal security is not about what the sinner does. Eternal security is about WHO the Savior is and what HE did for the sinner.

If our focus is to be a "fruit inspector" of other believers, one will begin to question eternal security.

If our focus remains on the Author and creator of our salvation, Eternal security remains a constant in our lives.

Eternal security is based off of the perfect integrity and immutability Of God. Not off of the basis of sinning creatures.

It really is arrogance that says a creature can cancel the perfect integrity and immutability of the Creator.

that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:15-16)

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24).......If it can be lost it would not be Eternal.

Eternal security is an unbreakable relationship, because it depends entirely on who and what God is, never on who and what we are. Grace always depends on God’s divine policy in dealing with us as believers. Your weaknesses cannot cancel God’s strength. Your failures cannot nullify or reduce in any way the integrity of God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Thank you gr8grace3 (what's with the name?).
Very well put.
I got sidetracked with the fruits thing.
You are so right.

 

[Kathi]

I see all this focus on the sinner and the believer. Eternal security is not about what the sinner does. Eternal security is about WHO the Savior is and what HE did for the sinner.

If our focus is to be a "fruit inspector" of other believers, one will begin to question eternal security.

If our focus remains on the Author and creator of our salvation, Eternal security remains a constant in our lives.

Eternal security is based off of the perfect integrity and immutability Of God. Not off of the basis of sinning creatures.

It really is arrogance that says a creature can cancel the perfect integrity and immutability of the Creator.

that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:15-16)

“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24).......If it can be lost it would not be Eternal.

Eternal security is an unbreakable relationship, because it depends entirely on who and what God is, never on who and what we are. Grace always depends on God’s divine policy in dealing with us as believers. Your weaknesses cannot cancel God’s strength. Your failures cannot nullify or reduce in any way the integrity of God.

I certainly have my share of weaknesses