Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Butch5]

A statement was made: "So pretty much, we are not really saved, but in the process of being saved which ultimately happens at death."

Evidenced by an analogy:
"Technically we're engaged and awaiting the wedding."

Clarified further:"We've entered into a covenant with God that will be brought to completion at the resurrection"

Questioned then affirmed, with 'some' Biblical support:

Emphasizing a portion of Peter's message concerning salvation (that is, when salvation is revealed [seen]) and using an ellipsis for Peter's other plain words which speak to OSAS:

1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The ... Is somewhat important, no?

Born again to "an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,"

If Peter thought our being born again was a 'process' toward salvation, our 'covenant' for salvation, our 'engagement' to be saved, our 'down payment' toward salvation, why would he use the plain language he does in the ellipsis part of this passage?

Why say it fades not?

Why say our salvation is kept in heaven, if he meant it was kept by us on Earth?

Why say it is by God's power the elect's salvation is kept [guarded even] if rather it's really kept by some other power (in us)?

So, reading all of 1 Peter 1:3-5, allowing for OSAS to be either true or false, is one better to conclude Peter is a supporter of OSAS because he says salvation is:

1: via Christ's resurrection [can't take that one back]
2: imperishable
3: undefiled
4: unfading
5: kept in Heaven
6: via the power of God
7: guarded
8: caused
9: according to His great mercy

Or is Peter a non-supporter of OSAS because:
1. he says: salvation is ready to be REVEALED in the last time?

I think Peter plainly supports OSAS. Yet he realizes it will not be revealed until later. The ... tells Peter's support of OSAS. The emphasized portion tells why our hope lives, yet waits to be revealed, sure:

We have a living hope because Christ lives, though unseen.

1 Peter 3-9 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again... obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Hi Chessman,

I'm not sure how this addresses the issue. Peter is writing to believing Jews. HIs statement doesn't address the issue of turning away. Did you notice that Peter said they are kept by God "through" faith. What happens if one rejects that faith? He didn't say they were kept by God unconditionally, it's through faith.

I've made the point before that the OSAS issue is not based in God's ability it is based in man's faithfulness. I don't know any Christian that argue against OSAS that doubts God's ability to save. When one gets saved they enter into the "New Covenant". A covenant is a contract in which two parties agree to certain terms. God has promised to save those of faith, therefore, man is required to have faith, that's present tense. God didn't promise to save the one who used to have faith but the one who has faith.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Chessman,

I'm not sure how this addresses the issue. Peter is writing to believing Jews. HIs statement doesn't address the issue of turning away. Did you notice that Peter said they are kept by God "through" faith. What happens if one rejects that faith? He didn't say they were kept by God unconditionally, it's through faith.

I've made the point before that the OSAS issue is not based in God's ability it is based in man's faithfulness. I don't know any Christian that argue against OSAS that doubts God's ability to save. When one gets saved they enter into the "New Covenant". A covenant is a contract in which two parties agree to certain terms. God has promised to save those of faith, therefore, man is required to have faith, that's present tense. God didn't promise to save the one who used to have faith but the one who has faith.

So God partially saves but then it's up to the individual to maintain their belief. How does one force themselves to keep believing something? One can force themselves to keep doing actions but that is not believing.

 

[Butch5]

So God partially saves but then it's up to the individual to maintain their belief. How does one force themselves to keep believing something? One can force themselves to keep doing actions but that is not believing.

I'm not sure what you mean. The Greek word Pisteuo carries more than just mental assent

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'd like to see your scripture

5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control,perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you..." (2 Peter 1:5-11 NASB)

11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:11-12 NASB)


Any questions? Do we need to make these exhortations not mean what they so plainly say?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So God partially saves but then it's up to the individual to maintain their belief. How does one force themselves to keep believing something? One can force themselves to keep doing actions but that is not believing.

By God's continual grace. But that hardly means we won't refuse that grace in preference of the world. Like the number two soil in Luke 8.

Did you believe at first all by yourself without God's help? Neither do you continue in that believing all by yourself without God's help. But that hardly means you can't decide not to continue to believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I completely understand that non-OSAS is not a works gospel. I lean towards non-OSAS because of Matthew 7:21-23. I agree with you that the church is teaching a false message about salvation. They are kind of saying "Just believe (as in the head knowledge) say a prayer and you got your ticket to heaven, nothing else required". Why do you think I assumed Non-OSAS is a works gospel?

Why? Because you were coming against the works mentality as if that's what non-OSAS defends.

I thought you were non-OSAS. That's why your post surprised me.

 

[Deborah13]

By God's continual grace. But that hardly means we won't refuse that grace in preference of the world. Like the number two soil in Luke 8.

Did you believe at first all by yourself without God's help? Neither do you continue in that believing all by yourself without God's help. But that hardly means you can't decide not to continue to believe.

So by God's continual grace we believe, we cannot force ourselves to believe.
If we have God's continual grace, until we no longer believe....
So how does one force themselves to stop believing what they believe?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So by God's continual grace we believe, we cannot force ourselves to believe.
If we have God's continual grace, until we no longer believe....

By God's continually available grace, we keep our trust in Christ's substitutionary death, if that's what we want to do. Obviously, if you choose not to trust in Christ's death God's grace is not going to be available to you anymore to trust in it.

So how does one force themselves to stop believing what they believe?

The matter is about whether or not we will choose to trust in that which God has graciously made able to be trusted in, and then to keep trusting in that which we know is true. We can believe if we want to. But what we may choose not to, also...particularly if our faith is weak. Somewhere along the line, soil #2 in Luke 8 decided to stop trusting. They believed for a while but then stopped. And they stopped in preference to the ways of the world. Read it.

Just because a person knows something is true doesn't mean they'll act in accordance to what is true. It's a choice.

 

[veryberry]

I completely understand that non-OSAS is not a works gospel. I lean towards non-OSAS because of Matthew 7:21-23. I agree with you that the church is teaching a false message about salvation. They are kind of saying "Just believe (as in the head knowledge) say a prayer and you got your ticket to heaven, nothing else required". Why do you think I assumed Non-OSAS is a works gospel?

I am against "head knowledge" believing as well. I am also highly against the sinners prayer. A "head knowledge" believer can, not believe. But one that believes with all their heart, The death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior is reality. The reality that 1+1=2 will always be so. Just like the Jesus died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, will always be so. If you think that reality can change for you, then maybe your not believing? Be persuaded that it so.

the believer is a true believer below (to save confusion)

A Believer can fall into sin and God will chasten him to bring him back or even kill him. Is he still saved? If you say no, then I hope you are living a perfect life.
Baby Believers will be carnal, no question about it. And they died, they are saved. Baby believers however, are hard to discern from the lost. If there is no one to feed and guide the baby believer, then baby believer will always be a baby believer and die a baby believer. Take a baby(an actual baby) and don't feed and guide it and see how long it lives. It's our responsibility, to take that baby believer and guide and nourish it in the way it should go through the word of God. If this responsibility is not taken, then we are left with whats going on today. Apostasy.

 

[Deborah13]

I am against "head knowledge" believing as well. I am also highly against the sinners prayer. A "head knowledge" believer can, not believe. But one that believes with all their heart, The death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior is reality. The reality that 1+1=2 will always be so. Just like the Jesus died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, will always be so. If you think that reality can change for you, then maybe your not believing? Be persuaded that it so.

the believer is a true believer below (to save confusion)

A Believer can fall into sin and God will chasten him to bring him back or even kill him. Is he still saved? If you say no, then I hope you are living a perfect life.
Baby Believers will be carnal, no question about it. And they died, they are saved. Baby believers however, are hard to discern from the lost. If there is no one to feed and guide the baby believer, then baby believer will always be a baby believer and die a baby believer. Take a baby(an actual baby) and don't feed and guide it and see how long it lives. It's our responsibility, to take that baby believer and guide and nourish it in the way it should go through the word of God. If this responsibility is not taken, then we are left with whats going on today. Apostasy.

I agree with this post.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you think that reality can change for you, then maybe your not believing?

Bingo! Listen to what you just said.

The reality changes, not because the reality of Christ changed, but because you no longer have access to the reality of Christ if you stop trusting in that reality. That's what non-OSAS is all about. Not a failure in the power of God and Christ, but a failure in a person to persevere in the believing required to access the power of God and Christ in salvation. The Bible plainly warns us to not stop believing. Not for rewards sake, but so that the reality of Christ's substitutionary death continues to minister on our behalf before God for the removal of sin guilt.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A Believer can fall into sin and God will chasten him to bring him back or even kill him. Is he still saved? If you say no, then I hope you are living a perfect life.

That depends if your sin is because you have turned your back on God's forgiveness or because you're struggling in the usual struggles of living for Christ. The church doesn't seem to understand the difference between the two. That's why they can't hear the non-OSAS argument about this.

Baby Believers will be carnal, no question about it. And they died, they are saved. Baby believers however, are hard to discern from the lost. If there is no one to feed and guide the baby believer, then baby believer will always be a baby believer and die a baby believer. Take a baby(an actual baby) and don't feed and guide it and see how long it lives. It's our responsibility, to take that baby believer and guide and nourish it in the way it should go through the word of God. If this responsibility is not taken, then we are left with whats going on today. Apostasy.

Oh, then you are non-OSAS, for you are saying young babes in Christ will perish if their faith is not nourished through education and encouragement.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...Jesus died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day...

...in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard...

Do you want to challenge the addition to these words to your words?

If so, read Colossians 1:21-23 first.

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not sure what you mean. The Greek word Pisteuo carries more than just mental assent

Yes it does. My response was to one of Jethro Bodine 's posts. It's rather a circular argument.

 

[Butch5]

I am against "head knowledge" believing as well. I am also highly against the sinners prayer. A "head knowledge" believer can, not believe. But one that believes with all their heart, The death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior is reality. The reality that 1+1=2 will always be so. Just like the Jesus died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day, will always be so. If you think that reality can change for you, then maybe your not believing? Be persuaded that it so.

the believer is a true believer below (to save confusion)

A Believer can fall into sin and God will chasten him to bring him back or even kill him. Is he still saved? If you say no, then I hope you are living a perfect life.
Baby Believers will be carnal, no question about it. And they died, they are saved. Baby believers however, are hard to discern from the lost. If there is no one to feed and guide the baby believer, then baby believer will always be a baby believer and die a baby believer. Take a baby(an actual baby) and don't feed and guide it and see how long it lives. It's our responsibility, to take that baby believer and guide and nourish it in the way it should go through the word of God. If this responsibility is not taken, then we are left with whats going on today. Apostasy.

Hi veryberry,

I'd like to ask a question, It's a question for anyone. You said you're opposed to "head knowledge" and contrasted that with one who believes with all their heart, What's the difference?

 

[jeff77]

Why? Because you were coming against the works mentality as if that's what non-OSAS defends.

I thought you were non-OSAS. That's why your post surprised me.

I didn't realize that I was implying that. I do believe that there will be people who think they are saved but find out in the end they aren't. I believe faith without works is dead and that equals to not being saved in the end. I believe we have real life examples of people who were devout Christians even some well known pastors that later turned into atheist and they are not saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes it does. My response was to one of Jethro Bodine 's posts. It's rather a circular argument.

A circular argument that does not exist.

You believe because you want to believe. God' help is how we do what we want to do--believe in the gospel. Change your mind about believing and God will not be extending his help to you forever to persuade you to keep believing. Nothing circular about that.

 

[veryberry]

Bingo! Listen to what you just said.

The reality changes, not because the reality of Christ changed, but because you no longer have access to the reality of Christ if you stop trusting in that reality. That's what non-OSAS is all about. Not a failure in the power of God and Christ, but a failure in a person to persevere in the believing required to access the power of God and Christ in salvation. The Bible plainly warns us to not stop believing. Not for rewards sake, but so that the reality of Christ's substitutionary death continues to minister on our behalf before God for the removal of sin guilt.

You are manipulating what I said...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are manipulating what I said...

You have the floor. Explain how believing babes perish in the OSAS doctrine.

 

[veryberry]

Oh, then you are non-OSAS, for you are saying young babes in Christ will perish if their faith is not nourished through education and encouragement.

and here