Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[veryberry]

Do you mean how can I tell I'm still believing and trusting in Christ's forgiveness?

Biblically, the answer to that question is look at your life to see if you are characterized more and more by the qualities of the Spirit. The Spirit is how we know we have the promise of eternal life. We know we have the Spirit by if he is manifesting himself in us in the fruit of the Spirit--particularly the fruit of love (godly love, not worldly love).

Peter says it like this:

"5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control,perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble..." (2 Peter 1:5-10 NASB)

So, If I have the holy Spirit, I will be doing righteous works, and If I do not have the holy Spirit, I will not have righteous works. Or am I misunderstanding you.

 

[veryberry]

Pretty much. We've entered into a covenant with God that will be brought to completion at the resurrection

Jethro and JLB, ya'll agree to this?

 

[veryberry]

Because he says the passages he shared show OSAS, but hasn't shown where it says that in the passages. It is implied.

So, until he comes up with hard and fast words that say the believer can not walk away from his salvation then we have to go with the plain scriptures I have provided that show he can, and warns him not to.



What he did was rehash the OSAS argument that squeezes the implication out of those passages that we can not do anything to affect our salvation once we have that salvation. But it's an implication that is easily dispelled by other plainly worded scripture that warns those standing in faith not to walk away from the security of that faith.



I challenge him or anybody else to show us how those passages say the believer is helpless to abandon and forfeit the promise of salvation he has received. That's how I'm showing you and others that those passages do not support OSAS. You have to read them through the predetermined indoctrination of OSAS to get a solid case for OSAS out of them.

As a bible believer, I can't help but to believe what the bible says. So, as a believer in Christ, when it come to passages like...

Romans 6:3 - Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ(This happens when you believe) were baptized into his death?

When Christ died, I died with him.

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

When Christ was buried, I was buried with him and am now walking in newness of life.

Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I have died and am freed from sin.

1 Cor 6:19 - What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The Holy Ghost is in me and I don't need any signs or works to prove it.

1 Cor 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I am washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

Col 2:12 - Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 - And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
I am buried with Christ, risen with Christ, quickened with Christ, and all my trespasses are forgiven.

Col 1:13 - Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

I have been delivered from the power of Darkness and have been translated into the kingdom. JLB, while your sitting there waiting to see if your a sheep or a goat, I am already there.

The bible says that these events have already taken place when I believed that Jesus Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. It is passages like these that give me surety of my salvation. So when it comes to passages like...

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10:14,27-30

14. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

Romans 8: 38-39

38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:30 - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

I have absolutely no problem taking them exactly for what they say. What ticks me off is when [edit] and try to destroy that blessed hope of mine and others by misusing scripture, twisting scripture, and taking scripture out of context whether it be intentional or unintentional. [edit]

 

[JLB]

So pretty much, we are not really saved, but in the process of being saved which ultimately happens at death. Is this correct?

You have received the right to become a child of God.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: John 1:12

Nothing will snatch you out of His hand, however as we see from examples in God's word and are warned not to turn away, but to continue believing and trusting in Him.

It is by God's merciful Grace that we are saved, through faith. It is by God's Grace we will continue to stand, through faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

As a bible believer, I can't help but to believe what the bible says. So, as a believer in Christ, when it come to passages like...

Romans 6:3 - Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ(This happens when you believe) were baptized into his death?

When Christ died, I died with him.

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

When Christ was buried, I was buried with him and am now walking in newness of life.

Romans 6:7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I have died and am freed from sin.

[edit]

These are very good scriptures and are very true.


These scriptures are also true, and must be heeded as well.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death... Romans 8:1-2


5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

While we are waiting for the thing that we are hoping for, we must continue in this hope. The hope of faith.

In that context Paul writes to us, these encouraging words of hope -

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39


We are not to give up hope, for none of these things can separate us from God, if we have faith and continue in the hope that is born of faith.

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 1 John 5:4


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, If I have the holy Spirit, I will be doing righteous works, and If I do not have the holy Spirit, I will not have righteous works.

Maybe, maybe not.

Depends on if you do righteous works.

And if you have the Holy Spirit.

I wish righteous works were a given for the person who has the Holy Spirit, but it is not. That is why the Bible exhorts us to walk in righteous works. The church, in general, has come to this understanding that just because they have the Holy Spirit their lives are pleasing to God. It's all a part of this 'do nothing' mentality that grips the church these days. A mentality founded in a fundamental misunderstanding of Paul's doctrine of grace/works. And which gives rise to the erroneous doctrines presently reigning in the church--OSAS being among them.

I generalize this thinking as, "I can't purposely do something, or else that would be works. I have to just kind of let those things happen by themselves. After all, Christ did it all."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro and JLB, ya'll agree to this?

I do.

"...protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

"...we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8:23-25 NASB)

We hope in the promise of righteousness. What we have now is a down payment of the righteousness in the Holy Spirit.
"5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:5 NASB)

You see, it aint' over till it's over. You have to continue in the hope you have to secure that which the perseverance of hope secures. It is by faith that we hope in the promise of God. Lose your faith and you lose the hope and expectancy of that which is to come.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The Holy Ghost is in me and I don't need any signs or works to prove it.

Classic OSAS thinking.

Would you change what you said if I showed you in the Bible that you are exhorted to extend purposeful effort to prove you have the Holy Spirit in salvation in you?

I am washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God

The problem is the church thinks this means you don't have to do anything. As if doing righteous works automatically equates to trying to be justified by those works. The thinking being that if we just kind of let them happen by themselves we can't be guilty of trying to be justified by those works.

I have been delivered from the power of Darkness and have been translated into the kingdom. JLB, while your sitting there waiting to see if your a sheep or a goat, I am already there.

We have a responsibility to show that we are indeed sheep and not goats. The person who doesn't do that has a faith that can not save him--a dead, inactive faith. Even though James plainly says this, the church will be quick to tell you it simply isn't true. The argument being, you are saved whether you do righteous things or not because salvation is so utterly all about what God did and not anything you do.

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 10:14,27-30

14. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.

OSAS says this means believers can't stop believing (when they are defending that side of the duplicitous OSAS argument). That is the implication they derive from the passage (implied because it doesn't actually say that in direct words). But they look right over plain, direct passages of scripture that warn us to not stop believing or else be cutoff from Christ. Passages that make it impossible that Christ was saying we can never stop believing and, therefore, we are saved 'one time for all time' no matter what.

Romans 8: 38-39
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 4:30 - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

I have absolutely no problem taking them exactly for what they say.

But why don't you take the plain scriptures (more plain than the ones you post) "exactly for what they say" that say your unbelief after you have believed will separate you from Christ, and that you have to believe to the end to be saved by your faith, and if you don't you will be lost? That's the $64 question for the OSAS argument. OSAS requires that you believe implied understandings of scripture and ignore or rationalize away direct, plain words of scripture. I'm not doing it anymore.

What ticks me off is when [edit] and try to destroy that blessed hope of mine and others by misusing scripture, twisting scripture, and taking scripture out of context whether it be intentional or unintentional. [edit]

I'm confused. I thought there was no power in all of heaven and earth that could destroy the hope of the OSAS saint?

 

[jasonc]

LORD, so when I rant and think angry thoughts of harming others( and I have) that is a sign of the fruits of the spirit? really so I cant look at my heart and compare it to the word and see? hmm isn't that why we have the bible?

 

[Deborah13]

LORD, so when I rant and think angry thoughts of harming others( and I have) that is a sign of the fruits of the spirit? really so I cant look at my heart and compare it to the word and see? hmm isn't that why we have the bible?

I don't think that is what this is about at all.
So when you rant and think angry thoughts of harming others, are you still saved? Or if you happened to die at that moment were you no longer saved?
That's not what this is about either.

 

[jasonc]

I don't think that is what this is about at all.
So when you rant and think angry thoughts of harming others, are you still saved? Or if you happened to die at that moment were you no longer saved?
That's not what this is about either.

some would imply that isn't the case but one seems to have said otherwise. if we are not growing to be more Christ like then we should concern ourselves with we were really saved? and truth be told I do that ranting way to much. I know when I say it that god grieves. I have asked god to take that from me. that is how I know that there is a Spirit. He convicts me from saying that. remember what is in ones heart will come out. that is to my shame I say that but its the truth.

 

[Deborah13]

some would imply that isn't the case but one seems to have said otherwise. if we are not growing to be more Christ like then we should concern ourselves with we were really saved? and truth be told I do that ranting way to much. I know when I say it that god grieves. I have asked god to take that from me. that is how I know that there is a Spirit. He convicts me from saying that. remember what is in ones heart will come out. that is to my shame I say that but its the truth.

I have my own shames too usually lack of patience with some others that I should love the most, not God, but people.
I agree with you, that if we are not in the process of growing or have never grown and continue in our old life after saying we believe, then we should examine that and pray about it. Was our conversion only in words and not in spirit?

 

[veryberry]

[/quote]
John 1:12 -

These are very good scriptures and are very true.


These scriptures are also true, and must be heeded as well.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death... Romans 8:1-2


5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?

25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

While we are waiting for the thing that we are hoping for, we must continue in this hope. The hope of faith.

In that context Paul writes to us, these encouraging words of hope -

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:35-39


We are not to give up hope, for none of these things can separate us from God, if we have faith and continue in the hope that is born of faith.

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. 1 John 5:4


JLB

I agree that Paul is warning Christians not to walk "after the flesh"(Romans 8: 13 -For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:...) but rather "through the Spirit"(...but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

As unsaved men, we use to walk "in the flesh"(Romans 8: 8 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.). Notice the word difference.

We are no longer "in the flesh" because the flesh has been crucified(Gal 5: 24 - And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.). Are you Christ's? then your flesh has been crucified.

We have been circumcised from the flesh, (Col 2:11 - In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ

These passages have nothing to do with salvation, but rather your physical life. We are to work for Christ(not being taught today). We are to read the bible, preach to the lost, feed the lambs and sheep, glorify Christ.

Our works will be judged. 1 Cor 3: 13 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

If our works are through the spirit we will receive a reward. 1 Cor 3:14 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

but if they are fleshly works they will be burned but we are saved yet so as by fire. 1 Cor 3: 15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I have a feeling that there will be ALOT of nuclear explosions that day, my pile included, but I am hoping for at least a few gems to remain. But a lot of people, even though they are saved, will have nothing to show for it.
2 john 1:8 - Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
We work to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ, for rewards, not for salvation.

Today it is hard to discern between the saved and the unsaved and its natural for us to fall to "somethings wrong with just believing, there must be something else", "somethings wrong with eternal security". Sound doctrine is not being taught today. We are in apostasy. The best we can do today, is preach the gospel, and teach sound doctrine, teaching how to work for Christ. A pastors goal should be to preach himself out of a job, not to keep people in chains and bondage so that he has a job.

Not preaching about sin keeps people in bondage
Preaching only about sin keeps people in bondage
Preaching only about God's love keeps people in bondage
Preaching only about God's wrath keeps people in bondage
Not teaching people how to read and study the bible keeps people in bondage and so on and so forth. The entire book must be taught. It must be a well balanced meal.

 

[veryberry]

I do.

"...protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:5 NASB)

"...we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it." (Romans 8:23-25 NASB)

We hope in the promise of righteousness. What we have now is a down payment of the righteousness in the Holy Spirit.
"5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness." (Galatians 5:5 NASB)

You see, it aint' over till it's over. You have to continue in the hope you have to secure that which the perseverance of hope secures. It is by faith that we hope in the promise of God. Lose your faith and you lose the hope and expectancy of that which is to come.

That's Catholic doctrine. Persevere is catholic. I thought you weren't catholic. But catholic is not suppose to be discussed here....

 

[Deborah13]

That's Catholic doctrine. Persevere is catholic. I thought you weren't catholic. But catholic is not suppose to be discussed here....

Perseverance of the saints is also Calvinist, It's the P in TULIP.
If one does not persevere they were never saved to begin with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Was our conversion only in words and not in spirit?

l'm becoming more and more convinced that God will forgive ANYONE who asks him. The sincerity of their request will be shown by if they continue in that forgiveness. This is really the jist of the non-OSAS argument for me. It's about strength of faith in salvation, not whether or not the faith a person has crossed some particular line of quality of sincerity to make it salfic. Does a person really ever ask God for forgiveness but not really mean it at that moment? But I can see how someone can do that but reconsider it later because of what that forgiveness entails. Strong faith can absorb the hits. Weak faith can not. An insincere faith is really a weak faith, not the non-existence of faith.

I don't expect you to get what I'm saying right off. Just tuck it away and maybe, if it's true, God will shed some insight into it for you. I've found that's how we learn, and how God works (everything comes to us in seed form). I've learned tons that way through these forums. I'm learning to listen and ponder, not categorically reject at the first.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perseverance of the saints is also Calvinist, It's the P in TULIP.
If one does not persevere they were never saved to begin with.

Colossians 1:22-23 NASB is what convinces me to not interpret Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, and 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 according to the what some say perseverance signifies (instead of what perseverance establishes). Can you see what I'm saying?

Colossians 1:21-23 may well be the definitive non-OSAS passage. I'm not aware of a way that it can honeslty be interpreted to defend OSAS. I give space for honest questioning of other passages.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's Catholic doctrine. Persevere is catholic. I thought you weren't catholic. But catholic is not suppose to be discussed here....

Call it Catholic if you want. I'm not Catholic, I just read what's in the Bible. If it fits the Catholic label, then so be it.

This is why I detest man-made labels of various doctrines and beliefs. They are artificial boundaries that have the potential to keep you from the truth, not lead you to it. They'll box you in.

 

[Deborah13]

Colossians 1:22-23 NASB is what convinces me to not interpret Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14, and 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 according to the what some say perseverance signifies (instead of what perseverance establishes). Can you see what I'm saying?

Colossians 1:21-23 may well be the definitive non-OSAS passage. I'm not aware of a way that it can honeslty be interpreted to defend OSAS. I give space for honest questioning of other passages.

I am not one to interpret these passages. Not to say that you or someone else can't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not one to interpret these passages. Not to say that you or someone else can't.

What do you think they are saying, that a continuing faith signifies that you are truly saved, or that a persevering faith establishes one's salvation?

The Colossians passage, because it speaks directly to what faith does (secures the work of Christ on your behalf), is way in favor of a persevering faith being that which keeps Christ's work acting on your behalf, instead of a persevering faith simply showing that Christ's work is really doing that for you. Can you see the difference?