Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Jethro Bodine]

1 Peter 5:10;
"And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast".

...if that's what you want. He will not let you down.

This is another one of those scriptures where we learn about God's ability and willingness to keep his own. But where do you get in the passage that he does that whether we want to be restored or not?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus is our advocate when we sin, no matter what the sin is.

Only if you continue to have faith in Christ's ministry to deal with that sin. I posted the scriptures that teach us that if we do not continue in our faith in Christ's ministry of forgiveness (aka, the gospel) we will no longer have the hope that faith secures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Which has more power your sin or the Blood of Christ?

Depends on which one I give preference to.

With God's help I'll choose the blood, but he didn't take away my choice in the matter.

Some people really do like their sin more than the forgiveness of God...even after they've been forgiven. That's what the slave in Matthew 18 shows us.

He really was forgiven but chose to trample the forgiveness he had received, and as a result had his debt reinstated. Jesus himself said this is what the kingdom is like. And Jesus said His Father will treat everyone who does the same thing with the forgiveness he has received the same way he treated the man in the parable.

I ask everyone, do we have ears to hear, or do we have our doctrinal hands clasped tightly over them?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For most all those in Christ, the idea of turning is unfathomable. The idea that one would reject the love of our Lord is completely loony. Not a single one here would deny that concept. The part that this sort of mind-set cant see is that there actually are people that get fed up with Jesus. We have all experienced testing and ultimately we trust. There are some however that simply throw in the towel and quit. They know full well what they are doing and want to live life their own way.

This is the point I was trying to get across to allen. Just because we haven't been there ourselves doesn't mean it's impossible for anyone to be there.

This isnt akin to the life of david or anything like that where we see screw up after screw up and yet God is still there. This is not a life of pain that Jesus cant save someone from. This is not about sin being greater than the One who sacrificed for it. This is everything about self. None of us can fathom eternity, even though the words are made plain. Some just really dont care, no matter how preposterous that seems.

This thing has happened within my own family. The fruit was there, for a long time. Now its not. Try to talk about God and they dont want to hear it, almost fearfully.

Same thing happened in my home.

And that's all I'm going to say about that.

 

[reba]

yup me too

 

[Butch5]

I don't agree that Paul is saying that they are turning away from their faith in Christ in 1 Tim. 5:11-15. I would suggest looking at the Greek for the word "wanton". Also when it says 'damnation' how are they damned. Damnation does not always mean loss of salvation. Finally, what first faith is this speaking of, in context. If it is faith in Christ, faith in Christ for what?

As far as the second scripture I think we can look to what Paul said to the church at Corinth., I believe it was, about the man involved in the affair with his father wife. Turn him over to Satan so that is soul may be saved.

v19 is an interesting statement and I think I need more time with it. Because what was put away? faith or good conscience.

This is the typical response from those who accept OSAS. If the faith isn't in Christ what is Paul's point? The contrast of casting off their faith is turning aside after satan. I mean the statement is pretty clear. To grow cold against Christ and cast off one's faith seems clear.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

1 John 2:4;
"Whoever says, I know, him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person".

Now what person do you know that claims they know/knew Jesus and has walked away from him forever?
You don't know.
And you'll never know.
If you can read the hearts of people right up until their last breath, then you are deity.

And if God says he will make that person stand, and never let go of him, then who are you to say God is wrong?

All you people who are anti-OSAS need to rethink what you say is true, for you are weakening the power of God, the power of Jesus, and the power of the work of the Holy Spirit.
It's obvious that you doubt your own salvation, and God never meant to make it so we live a defeated life as you all suggest.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why should I not assume regeneration is permanent. Where in the bible was anyone unregenerated, unjustified, unredeemed, etc?

A forgiven person is a justified person. A justified person is a regenerated person. The slave in Matthew 18 had his forgiveness taken back. Jesus said this is like the kingdom of God.

Replies like this one is the reason I suggest that many views of salvation are inconsistent with salvation by grace alone.

The grace of salvation is that we can know that the gospel is true, and that we can be set free to place our trust in it. The grace of salvation is not that God even does our believing for us.

It would have been correct to say that we will always have faith because we have been regenerated, but our regeneration does not depend upon our faith since faith itself is a gift (Phil 1:29)

Faith is the supernatural ability to know that what we can't see is true, so that we can then place our trust in what we now know to be true. Most people, when God witnesses the truth to them through this supernatural ability to 'see' the truth simply don't want it and turn away back into their unbelief. Those who do want it place their trust in what God has shown them to be true and are saved.

Thus the charge of works salvation.

(referring to Matthew 18)...But Jesus said this is how the kingdom is. So you have no choice but to say the kingdom is about works salvation.

LOL, such a nasty accusation. I doubt you did much thinking about that one.

Then take any scripture I've shared and explain to us how it doesn't really mean what it plainly says.

Faith is a gift (Phil 1:29)
If Faith fails then the source of faith, God, failed.

Faith is by definition knowing something is true that you can't see. God shows everyone the truth of the gospel. He does that so we can then 'do' the work of believing and place our trust in that which God has supernaturally shown us to be true. Most reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit showing them the gospel is true. A few accept that testimony and through that gift of faith (to know the gospel is true) believe. And a few of them continue in that faith to the end and are saved. Some like soil #2 in the parable of the soil believe for a while but fall away when troubles and persecutions come.

Since no person can generate faith (John 6:44) and faith is the gift of God (Phil 1:29) then if faith fails, God failed.

No one can know what they can't see is true. That is the gift of faith through which we then believe and are saved.

 

[WIP]

For most all those in Christ, the idea of turning is unfathomable. The idea that one would reject the love of our Lord is completely loony. Not a single one here would deny that concept.

What about Adam? Did he not turn away from the love of God?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And if God says he will make that person stand, and never let go of him, then who are you to say God is wrong?

All you people who are anti-OSAS need to rethink what you say is true, for you are weakening the power of God, the power of Jesus, and the power of the work of the Holy Spirit.
It's obvious that you doubt your own salvation, and God never meant to make it so we live a defeated life as you all suggest.

Read Matthew 18:23-35 NASB...then come back and explain to us how what the kingdom can be compared to really isn't what the kingdom can be compared to....and that what Jesus said his Father will do to each of us who does what the slave did really isn't what his Father will do to each of us who does what the slave did.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What about Adam? Did he not turn away from the love of God?

Uh oh! Time to allegorize the garden story.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Read Matthew 18:23-35 NASB...then come back and explain to us how what the kingdom can be compared to really isn't what the kingdom can be compared to....and that what Jesus said his Father will do to each of us who does what the slave did really isn't what his Father will do to each of us who does what the slave did.

It's quite easy to understand.
God called the servant wicked.
Where in the New Testament does called call those who belong to Jesus "wicked"?

 

[King James]

If your really saved, you'll live your life for God. You'll live a godly life and work for God. Continual church rituals do not make you saved. Never ending works do not make you saved. Being saved has to come first. You work because you are saved. Not to be saved. You love your neighbor because you are saved. Not to be saved. We can't earn our way to heaven. We have to rest in God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1 John 2:4;
"Whoever says, I know, him, but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person".

We all know that people who live lifestyles of disobedience do not have the truth in them. But how does that have to mean that person never asked for and received God's forgiveness?

Now what person do you know that claims they know/knew Jesus and has walked away from him forever?

I can tell you haven't done much witnessing to unbelievers.

I can't think of a single unbeliever I've talked to that rejected the gospel but who were sure they had a saving relationship with God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's quite easy to understand.
God called the servant wicked.
Where in the New Testament does called call those who belong to Jesus "wicked"?

We can see right from the passage...when they do wrong!

Read the passage. This person was indeed forgiven his debt:

‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ (Matthew 18: 32-33 NASB)

But then had that debt reinstated:

"34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." (Matthew 18:34 NASB)

Jesus said this how his Father will treat each of us who do the same thing the slave did:

"34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." (Matthew 18: NASB)

Do you want to argue these points?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We all know that people who live lifestyles of disobedience do not have the truth in them. But how does that have to mean that person never asked for and received God's forgiveness?



I can tell you haven't done much witnessing to unbelievers.

I can't think of a single unbeliever I've talked to that rejected the gospel but who were sure they had a saving relationship with God.

Well Jethro baby, you're forcing my hand here.
All these comments are pointing to one passage, so here it is.

James 2:18-19;
"But someone will say, you have faith, I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that -- and shudder".

Many people has given their lives to Jesus, but only in their minds, it has never reached their hearts.
At some point they just get up and walk away.

John 6:29;
"For the work of God is this, to believe in the one he has sent".

This is what James is talking about.
We show our faith by our belief in Jesus.

And you're so right Jethro.
I've never witnessed to anyone.
I've lived in my attic 24/7 for the past 30 years.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We can see right from the passage...when they do wrong!

Read the passage. This person was indeed forgiven his debt:

‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ (Matthew 18: 32-33 NASB)

But then had that debt reinstated:
"34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." (Matthew 18:34 NASB)

Jesus said this how his Father will treat each of us who do the same thing the slave did:

"34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him." (Matthew 18: NASB)

Do you want to argue these points?

Argue with you?
Why?
You'll never admit you are wrong.

 

[Northman]

What about Adam? Did he not turn away from the love of God?

The turning i speak of is permanent. Twas given in the greater theme of the post. If that wasnt what someone came away with due to my horrible ability to communicate properly, then i apologize.

To hear those that curse the Name, who once praised and sung it. This thing of which is being spoken of isnt some hidden thing, something that someone might accidentally do, some sort of slip up. No, this is full frontal defiance and treating Master and servant alike with contempt. The signs of which we are told of those who would never inherit the kingdom, just amplified.

Anyone who WANTS to remain in the Lord, the Lord will keep and will not let go.

 

[Northman]

It's quite easy to understand.
God called the servant wicked.
Where in the New Testament does called call those who belong to Jesus "wicked"?

I thought the idea behind this one was that they were all servants of the same master. One just did wickedly with what he had been given. Am i confused?

 

[Deborah13]

A forgiven person is a justified person. A justified person is a regenerated person. The slave in Matthew 18 had his forgiveness taken back. Jesus said this is like the kingdom of God.

This lord said this first,
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

I think we need to be very careful when we interpret things that are taught. We need to know who the audience is for one. When Jesus taught the Jews He spoke to them using the Law of Moses. Very often He was teaching the intent of the Law, really was. Not how they had corrupted it.

Did Jesus mean to literally cut off an offending hand?

So when He says this is like the Kingdom of God does He mean that in the Kingdom of God your wife and your children will be sold? That they will pay for your sin?

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Where is the Kingdom of God? I believe it right here, in all believers, in the Church.
I believe that God is quite capable of sending the tormentors to teach us right here, right now. This may come from the Holy Spirit speaking of the righteousness of Christ and how we are to represent Him and His mercy. Bringing us to repentance and correcting what we have done or not done. This could be other Christians rebuking our behaviors. This could be that He causes you to fall into hard times and having your creditors demanding what you don't have.
I believe God is in the business of restoration through sanctification.