Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Butch5]

I think we should be eating from the Tree of Life (our Lord Jesus) right now.
So those who eat from that Tree are the overcomers.

Were Abraham, King David, etc. really dead in terms of eternal life?

But Deb, Jesus isn't the tree of life.

I'm not sure what you're asking in your question, but they were dead.

 

[Deborah13]

But Deb, Jesus isn't the tree of life.

I'm not sure what you're asking in your question, but they were dead.

To me the physical death of the body is one thing. The death, spiritual death, of soul is something else.

 

[Butch5]

To me the physical death of the body is one thing. The death, spiritual death, of soul is something else.

Hi Deb,

But don't the Scriptures define what death means? There is nothing about spiritual death as concerning man, in the Scriptures and the Scriptural definition of a soul requires a body.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

But don't the Scriptures define what death means? There is nothing about spiritual death as concerning man, in the Scriptures and the Scriptural definition of a soul requires a body.

I think to answer this I would be going to far off topic.

 

[Butch5]

I think to answer this I would be going to far off topic.

How so?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

1. Many sinners, when in trouble, beg the Lord for forgiveness.
Ahab to his sackcloth, Mannasseh to his prayers, Pharaoh to his confessions, Judas to his restitution, Simon Magus to his supplication, Belshazzar and Felix to their tremblings.
Were any of them saved?

The tax collector was:

"13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God." (Luke 18:13-14 NASB)

How does this fit into your doctrine?

Though God forgave the debt, he did not release him from being a servant.

Yes, THE KING FORGAVE THE DEBT.

But the church likes to take plain words of scripture and say they don't really mean what they so plainly say, but really mean the opposite. I've been called on the carpet about this by unbelievers and have repented of doing that evil thing.

Unless what is spoken about is obviously a metaphor or an analogy (i.e., gouging out one's eye) I do not tell people plain words somehow mean the opposite of what is being said. I now strive to formulate my own beliefs on what the scriptures actually teach, not formulate them on centuries of the 'itching ears' doctrines Paul said would come:

"3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB)

That time has come...and it's been here for quite some time. Teachers who make words mean the opposite of what they plainly say in the interest of tickling people's ears according to their personal desires, replacing the truth with myths.

[ Edited by mod]

It is easily said that those who do not forgive their brothers' trespasses did never truly repent of their own nor ever truly believe the Gospel.
Therefore, what is taken away is only what they seem to have (Luke 8:18;).

Certainly true when that's the case. But Jesus said the servant really was forgiven. But we are told by the church he really wasn't.

Take comfort in that, unbeliever, when you do beg the King for forgiveness and then wonder if he really did forgive you or not. And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of eternal security?

"13 ...for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”" (Romans 10:13 NASB)

Maybe....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here's another problem with the OSAS argument. It assumes that salvation has already taken place. However, the Scriptures use the term in the past, present and future tenses. How are you saved when Jesus said, to him who overcomes I will give to eat of the tree of life? Would anyone suggest that none of those is the church at Ephesus were Christians?

Paul said the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. He also said,
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, (Heb 2:14 NKJ)

Salvation is salvation from death. I'd venture to guess that no one partaking in this discussion has yet been resurrected and that if Christ delays his coming we will all die. If that is the case how then have you been saved from death at this point in history?

Though we enjoy the 'grapes of Eschol' Jesus sent back to confirm the promise of the inheritance (that is, the Holy Spirit), salvation is still that, a promise of things to come:

"4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)

And the Bible is clear, we must endure in our faith to the end to expect to inherit that promise of salvation.

 

[Deborah13]

Please, no snide/snarky remarks delivered to others. Remember the ToS 2.4, you have agreed to.

 

[Deborah13]

How so?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The tax collector was:

"13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God." (Luke 18:13-14 NASB)

How does this fit into your doctrine?


Yes, THE KING FORGAVE THE DEBT.

But the church likes to take plain words of scripture and say they don't really mean what they so plainly say, but really mean the opposite. I've been called on the carpet about this by unbelievers and have repented of doing that evil thing.

Unless what is spoken about is obviously a metaphor or an analogy (i.e., gouging out one's eye) I do not tell people plain words somehow mean the opposite of what is being said. I now strive to formulate my own beliefs on what the scriptures actually teach, not formulate them on centuries of the 'itching ears' doctrines Paul said would come:

"3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB)

That time has come...and it's been here for quite some time. Teachers who make words mean the opposite of what they plainly say in the interest of tickling people's ears according to their personal desires, replacing the truth with myths.

To embrace OSAS you have to learn that 'believing', for example, really does not mean true believing. And as we see here, 'being forgiven' is not really being forgiven. Edit



Certainly true when that's the case. But Jesus said the servant really was forgiven. But we are told by the church he really wasn't.

Take comfort in that, unbeliever, when you do beg the King for forgiveness and then wonder if he really did forgive you or not. And OSAS is supposed to be the doctrine of eternal security?

"13 ...for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”" (Romans 10:13 NASB)

Maybe....

Jethro, you say I'm reading into something that's not there but I say [Edited by mod]

 

[Butch5]

Though we enjoy the 'grapes of Eschol' Jesus sent back to confirm the promise of the inheritance (that is, the Holy Spirit), salvation is still that, a promise of things to come:

"4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)

And the Bible is clear, we must endure in our faith to the end to expect to inherit that promise of salvation.

If Paul, after all of his preaching said he hadn't achieved the goal I don't know how anyone else can claim to have.

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousnesswhich is from God by faith;
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. (Phi 3:8-14 NKJ)

 

[Deborah13]

This forum is to debate Apologetics and Theology. To debate scripture, the interpretation of that scripture, and the doctrines associated with that scripture.
It is Not to debate or determine what someone must be doing in order to believe what they believe. I see that as a not so clever way to attack those people using third person pronouns.

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

Do necessarily directed to the last poster.

 

[Gary]

There are two "Books" The "Book of life" and the "Lamb's Book of life" (Rev. 21:27) Perhaps you could study both of them to get a Biblical answer to your question.

My question wasn't regarding the "2 Books", but rather, what happens to individuals who do not overcome? The answer to that question can be found in verse 3 of that same chapter.

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.


Another biblical answer to the question is this:

Revelation 20
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Gary, the fact that Jesus will not blot out a name is an indication that OSAS! The Scripture, in an odd way I must confess, reafirms that once a person is Biblically saved, there will never be a point when Jesus refuses that person.

That's not what Christ is saying. Granted, He did say that, but He also placed conditions to go with His actions. Namely, the individual needs to overcome. If the individual does not overcome, his/her name will be removed from the Book of Life. So that verse "is not" an indication of OSAS. The exact opposite actually.

If it was not possible to have ones name blotted out of the Book of Life, why would Jesus even make that statement? That makes no sense at all.
.

 

[Butch5]

This forum is to debate Apologetics and Theology. To debate scripture, the interpretation of that scripture, and the doctrines associated with that scripture.
It is Not to debate or determine what someone must be doing in order to believe what they believe. I see that as a not so clever way to attack those people using third person pronouns.

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

My post wasn't an attack on anyone, it was general statement. It seems it always comes to this when OSAS is in jeopardy.

 

[Butch5]

OSAS is a 500 year old doctrine, Christianity is a 2000 year old religion, I wonder what the Christians believed during those other 1500 years.

 

[Deborah13]

My post wasn't an attack on anyone, it was general statement. It seems it always seem to come to this when OSAS is in jeopardy.

Sorry Butch, it wasn't directed at you or your posts, at all. I should have included a Disclaimer, "not necessarily directed at the last poster."
I'll add it now, thanks.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Jethro, you say I'm reading into something that's not there but I say [Edited by mod]

Well Jethro, it looks like our debate is over.
My, how times change.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry Butch, it wasn't directed at you or your posts, at all. I should have included a Disclaimer, "not necessarily directed at the last poster."
I'll add it now, thanks.

Oh, Ok, I'm sorry too then. I thought the post was a response to my post.

 

[Butch5]

There are two "Books" The "Book of life" and the "Lamb's Book of life" (Rev. 21:27) Perhaps you could study both of them to get a Biblical answer to your question.

Hi Chopper,

Why do you think they are different books?

 

[Chopper]

My question wasn't regarding the "2 Books", but rather, what happens to individuals who do not overcome? The answer to that question can be found in verse 3 of that same chapter.

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.


Another biblical answer to the question is this:

Revelation 20
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.





That's not what Christ is saying. Granted, He did say that, but He also placed conditions to go with His actions. Namely, the individual needs to overcome. If the individual does not overcome, his/her name will be removed from the Book of Life. So that verse "is not" an indication of OSAS. The exact opposite actually.

If it was not possible to have ones name blotted out of the Book of Life, why would Jesus even make that statement? That makes no sense at all.
.

I'm very sorry Gary, I have been having a little trouble with thoughts lately. Reba has been praying for me about that, bless her heart. I had a stroke a while back and the bleed messed with my mind. When I first saw your post I thought it was the Lambs book of life, which when your name is entered there, it will never be taken out.

The book of life is another story. I understand that everyone who is born, their name is entered. The word life implies that they have the opportunity to have eternal life. If they get saved, their name goes into the Lambs book of life. If the person whose name is in the Book of life, and they don't overcome and get saved, their name is taken out. Potentially they are destined for eternal life because God is not willing that any perish, therefore they potentially have white robes and their names written down. Not saved? no robe, no name.

Sorry I got mixed up.