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do you think homosexuals should be allowed to marry?

AHIMSA said:
As I said before, we can not make any certain statements about how the biblical authors would see homosexuality if they lived today.
Actually, yes, we can be certain. They would see it as an abomination as stated in both the OT and NT. Romans 1 is extremely clear. Apart from the obvious verses, the view of marriage in the Bible from cover to cover testifies to what the authors thought about homosexuality.

AHIMSA said:
The idea of a committed, monogomous homosexual couple who were in love and respecting eachother was simply not present.
Commitment, monogamy, love, and respect, while necessary for a healthy heterosexual marriage, do not determine whether something is morally right or wrong. One could justify all sorts of wrong behaviour by using such arguments.

AHIMSA said:
To use Leviticus or several passages from Paul as a blanket statement against all homosexual couples is taking the passages out of their context and applying them to something that the authors really knew nothing about.
Funny how you first say that we "cannot make any certain statements about how the biblical authors would see homosexuality if they lived today," but go on to argue "that the authors really knew nothing about" homosexuality as we know it today. Which is it - can we or can we not make any certain statements? If not, then your arguments are just as useless as any I can make.

The Greeks had a low view of homosexuality altogether and held marriage between a man and woman as the building block of society.


Sputnik said:
Christians in particular, sadly, so often turn off their brains whenever they start wielding the Bible as a weapon over this issue.
And what did you do to your brain to miss the obvious poor reasoning of AHIMSA's post? Or do you just use the above argument when you agree with those who disagree with Scripture?
 
Free said:
AHIMSA said:
As I said before, we can not make any certain statements about how the biblical authors would see homosexuality if they lived today.
Actually, yes, we can be certain. They would see it as an abomination as stated in both the OT and NT. Romans 1 is extremely clear. Apart from the obvious verses, the view of marriage in the Bible from cover to cover testifies to what the authors thought about homosexuality.

AHIMSA said:
The idea of a committed, monogomous homosexual couple who were in love and respecting eachother was simply not present.
Commitment, monogamy, love, and respect, while necessary for a healthy heterosexual marriage, do not determine whether something is morally right or wrong. One could justify all sorts of wrong behaviour by using such arguments.

AHIMSA said:
To use Leviticus or several passages from Paul as a blanket statement against all homosexual couples is taking the passages out of their context and applying them to something that the authors really knew nothing about.
Funny how you first say that we "cannot make any certain statements about how the biblical authors would see homosexuality if they lived today," but go on to argue "that the authors really knew nothing about" homosexuality as we know it today. Which is it - can we or can we not make any certain statements? If not, then your arguments are just as useless as any I can make.

The Greeks had a low view of homosexuality altogether and held marriage between a man and woman as the building block of society.


Sputnik said:
Christians in particular, sadly, so often turn off their brains whenever they start wielding the Bible as a weapon over this issue.
And what did you do to your brain to miss the obvious poor reasoning of AHIMSA's post? Or do you just use the above argument when you agree with those who disagree with Scripture?
no, in greek socioty, it was considered an honor to be a homosexual
 
SputnikBoy said:
And what exactly DID God intend for man and woman, Nocturnal?
I suggest you might start in Genesis to find the answer to your question, however; when I find the time to find the passages in scripture that deal with the nature of marriage I will post them.

Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
Really...Then explain the following verses exegetically:

Leviticus 18:22:
You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

SputnikBoy said:
Does this have anything to do with one's sexual orientation, Nocturnal? Please explain.
Yes it does have everything to do with sexual orientation. Homosexuals desire to be with the same sex. Leviticus 18:22 makes it quite clear that such a desire goes against God. One can come to that conclusion because it speaks against having relations with another who is of the same sex.

Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

SputnikBoy said:
I love the 'effeminate' abomination. Does this refer to a man having long hair? If not, what DOES this mean, Nocturnal? Make something up if you need to.
I admit I am not sure what the passage means about effeminate but I will get back to you on that.

SputnikBoy said:
Oh dear, that's SO MANY of us! Kind of narrows down the list of the saved, doesn't it?
Based on the context of the passages I gave it is clear that those spoken of in the passage are not remorseful for their sin and reject God’s degrees and most certainly Jesus Christ. In order for one to be saved they must first repent of their sins and acknowledge that Jesus died for their sin and rose again.

Also one might note that at the very beginning of 1 Corinthians 6:9 it says “…the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?†So naturally the question is…who are the righteous or how is one made righteous? The answer to this question can be found in the following verses (perhaps more):

Romans 10:10
Romans 3:22
1 Corinthians 1:30
Philippians 3:9
1 Peter 2:24

Just for a clear example I will provide Philippians 3:9 and 1 Peter 2:24:

Philippians 3:9:
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

1 Peter 2:24:
24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

kinggambits said:
It's funny how christians will site some passages as their beliefs, and yet completely ignore others, yet they claim that it is the word of god and is suppost to obay, if you want to site passages that are anti-homosexual then I will begin to site the darker passages of the bible.
I apologize for not replying to the speed at which you require. I would appreciate; however, that perhaps next time you practice patients and consider that I may have other things in my life to attend to...such as family, friends, school and so forth. I also would like to add that you claimed that if one were to interpret scripture correctly they would see that God did not condemn homosexuality…so as a rebuttal I sighted verses that refute your claim. Now instead of doing what I asked you resorted to disrespecting God.
 
Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
SputnikBoy said:
And what exactly DID God intend for man and woman, Nocturnal?
I suggest you might start in Genesis to find the answer to your question, however; when I find the time to find the passages in scripture that deal with the nature of marriage I will post them.

[quote="Nocturnal_Principal_X":9369c]Really...Then explain the following verses exegetically:

Leviticus 18:22:
You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.

SputnikBoy said:
Does this have anything to do with one's sexual orientation, Nocturnal? Please explain.
Yes it does have everything to do with sexual orientation. Homosexuals desire to be with the same sex. Leviticus 18:22 makes it quite clear that such a desire goes against God. One can come to that conclusion because it speaks against having relations with another who is of the same sex.

Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

SputnikBoy said:
I love the 'effeminate' abomination. Does this refer to a man having long hair? If not, what DOES this mean, Nocturnal? Make something up if you need to.
I admit I am not sure what the passage means about effeminate but I will get back to you on that.

SputnikBoy said:
Oh dear, that's SO MANY of us! Kind of narrows down the list of the saved, doesn't it?
Based on the context of the passages I gave it is clear that those spoken of in the passage are not remorseful for their sin and reject God’s degrees and most certainly Jesus Christ. In order for one to be saved they must first repent of their sins and acknowledge that Jesus died for their sin and rose again.

Also one might note that at the very beginning of 1 Corinthians 6:9 it says “…the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?†So naturally the question is…who are the righteous or how is one made righteous? The answer to this question can be found in the following verses (perhaps more):

Romans 10:10
Romans 3:22
1 Corinthians 1:30
Philippians 3:9
1 Peter 2:24

Just for a clear example I will provide Philippians 3:9 and 1 Peter 2:24:

Philippians 3:9:
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

1 Peter 2:24:
24and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

kinggambits said:
It's funny how christians will site some passages as their beliefs, and yet completely ignore others, yet they claim that it is the word of god and is suppost to obay, if you want to site passages that are anti-homosexual then I will begin to site the darker passages of the bible.
I apologize for not replying to the speed at which you require. I would appreciate; however, that perhaps next time you practice patients and consider that I may have other things in my life to attend to...such as family, friends, school and so forth. I also would like to add that you claimed that if one were to interpret scripture correctly they would see that God did not condemn homosexuality…so as a rebuttal I sighted verses that refute your claim. Now instead of doing what I asked you resorted to disrespecting God.[/quote:9369c] god also condons rape,Deuteronomy 22:28-29, all you have to do is rape a virgin woman, then pay her father fifty pieces of silver. Done and done, she's yours forever! What do you mean, a woman probably wouldn't want to marry her rapist, what's that got to do with it, god says she has to, so she has to! Just be careful not to rape a married woman, as that will earn you death by stoning, as outlined in Deuteronomy 22:23-27.
since that is the word of god, don't you think we should repeal rape laws. According to Colossians 2:8, god doesn't want you to learn things outside the church. Riiiight. so if you go to school you're sinning, makes ya think huh? ;-)
 
kinggambits said:
god also condons rape,Deuteronomy 22:28-29, all you have to do is rape a virgin woman, then pay her father fifty pieces of silver. Done and done, she's yours forever! What do you mean, a woman probably wouldn't want to marry her rapist, what's that got to do with it, god says she has to, so she has to! Just be careful not to rape a married woman, as that will earn you death by stoning, as outlined in Deuteronomy 22:23-27.
since that is the word of god, don't you think we should repeal rape laws. According to Colossians 2:8, god doesn't want you to learn things outside the church. Riiiight. so if you go to school you're sinning, makes ya think huh? ;-)
I suggest if you want to give information about scripture you take it in context. It is true you make me think and for that I thank you and wish God's blessings on you.
 
Funny how you first say that we "cannot make any certain statements about how the biblical authors would see homosexuality if they lived today," but go on to argue "that the authors really knew nothing about" homosexuality as we know it today. Which is it - can we or can we not make any certain statements? If not, then your arguments are just as useless as any I can make.

There's nothing funny about it. I said" the authors really knew nothing about homosexuality as we know it today" and since they knew nothing of the modern gay relationship "we cannot make any certain statements about how the biblical authors would see homosexuality if they lived today"

But perhaps you did not understand my point, so I will devulge into further detail. What I was articulating was that the modern notion of a homosexual relationship was non-existant in the society in which the bible was written. When the bible was written the authors knew of same-sex sexual acts, however, they had no grasp of a "homosexual", as in a person who is soley attracted to a member of the same sex and seeks to engage in a romantic, life long relationship akin to the idea of a heterosexual couple. Again, the biblical writers did not see persons who engaged in same-sex sex as "homosexuals", rather they saw them as heterosexuals (for everyone's heterosexuality was assumed) who engaged in sexual relations of a homosexual nature out of excessive lust, as a consequence of idolatory, as a part of a pagan cultic practice, or to establish dominance over a male opponent.

Since we do know that the biblical authors saw homosexual acts in this context, we can recognize that they are considerably removed from the modern idea of a homosexual couple. Thus, while we can use the bible to condemn homosexual acts that are exploitive, degrading, used to dominate or associated with cults, we can not say with any degree of certainty what the Bible would have to say about a committed, monogomous, loving homosexual couple (in the sense of orientation, not soley the sexual act, as well as "couple" in the sense of two people engaged in a romantic relationship, not simply two people engaging in sex) Simply because the Bible has nothing to say about this.

Ideas about human sexuality in ancient societies are radically different from today. For example, it was assumed that in sexual intercourse, the female was always the passive partner and the male the agressive conqueror, this assumption being based on the anatomical functions of the respective sexes. However, this ignores the reciprocal nature of sex in which both partners are offering eachother up to one another, both giving and both recieving at the same time.

Secondly, ancient societies believed that the male alone produced the substance of reproduction. The semen was believed to contain all the matierial neccessary to create a child. Females were seen soley as the vehicle through which a child would be born. Hence, semen is refered to as "seed", for it was thought that the uterus was "soil" in which the child would grow.

Both of these assumptions had dramatic implications as to how society functioned and how sex was viewed. The notion of a female as the passive reciever who contributed no substance to the creation of a child helped to create and re-inforce a patriarchial society in which everything was passed through the male (as only a male was capable of passing on "genes")

When we return to homosexuality, we can see that flawed notions, such as homosexual acts arise out of excessive lust and that they always involve heterosexual people, undoubtly influenced how those societies would understand the morality of same-sex sexual interaction. This was not an issue of one person oriented to one sex or another, this was an issue of men or women choosing to be attratced to the same sex and acting upon it. They were willingly "going against nature", not only in the act but in very decision to have those attractions.

If we look to Paul, he says
"Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way, men abandoned their natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for another" Romans 1:26

The key words here are "exchanged" and "abandoned". What these societies assumed were that these sexual desires were the perogative of any human being; heterosexual people (the ONLY sexuality) choosing to engage in homosexual acts. Notice that Paul does not simply say that men engaged in unnatural acts, but first comments that they were "inflamed with lust". If you read Paul closely, he makes it clear that these bad choices, both the act of sex and the desire to, were the result of worshipping false gods and turning away from God.

We often look to the Bible as though it is some kind of encyclopedia, or question and answer book. - insert moral dilemna here and you will recieve the appropriate instruction. However, to study the bible without being thoroughly aware of the context in which it was written, without understanding how the author viewed human sexuality, the natural world, society, law ect. is to actually overlook the author's intentions and blindly apply things to the modern world which do not neccessarily apply and were not neccessarily the author's original intention.

Thus we can reasonably say that the bible offers no real proclaimation on the issue of modern homosexual relationships.
 
it sounds like the reason it was written at the time becouse they thought only men were able to create the essance of reproduction. an ignorance at the time that cannot be applied to today.
 
Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
kinggambits said:
god also condons rape,Deuteronomy 22:28-29, all you have to do is rape a virgin woman, then pay her father fifty pieces of silver. Done and done, she's yours forever! What do you mean, a woman probably wouldn't want to marry her rapist, what's that got to do with it, god says she has to, so she has to! Just be careful not to rape a married woman, as that will earn you death by stoning, as outlined in Deuteronomy 22:23-27.
since that is the word of god, don't you think we should repeal rape laws. According to Colossians 2:8, god doesn't want you to learn things outside the church. Riiiight. so if you go to school you're sinning, makes ya think huh? ;-)
I suggest if you want to give information about scripture you take it in context. It is true you make me think and for that I thank you and wish God's blessings on you.

Hey, Nocturnal ...thanks for your post in response to mine as well as the one above. You're quite the gentleman and your posts reflect this virtue.

I'm not condoning sinful behavior of any kind but I have studied homosexuality over the years at uni. It would seem that a case CAN be made for one's sexual orientation being geared toward the same gender. And it's this that I have to defend when discussing issues of this nature. We may not always be in agreement but your placid approach to this and other topics discussed on the forum has been duly noted. Thanks.
 
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