Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[new covenant preacher]

As I've clearly demonstrated through the very Words of Christ "the doctrine of the trinity that so many consider fundamental, is yet another parable that those who follow after the doctrines of men will not figure out"

 

[Free]

I quoted the YLT as well as the NKJV.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;
1 John 5:7 YLT

I know you quoted the YLT, hence my comment. The YLT, at the eSword version, has all the extra text greyed out, meaning that it isn't actually in the Greek text.

Let's say for one minute that 1 John 5:7 was never written.

Based on the rest of the scripture, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?


The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• other: Please explain

I have already told you that this has nothing to do with what I posted; it is completely irrelevant. Please address the point I actually, and clearly, made.

 

[Free]

As I've clearly demonstrated through the very Words of Christ "the doctrine of the trinity that so many consider fundamental, is yet another parable that those who follow after the doctrines of men will not figure out"

Sorry but no, you not demonstrated anything of the sort. Not one passage or verse you have given proves that the Trinity is false or a "doctrine of man."

The Bible clearly teaches at least these three basic things about God:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet, the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit; they are all distinct.
3. All three "Persons" are coequal and coeternal.

That is what we have to make sense of.

 

[new covenant preacher]

Sorry but no, you not demonstrated anything of the sort. Not one passage or verse you have given proves that the Trinity is false or a "doctrine of man."

The Bible clearly teaches at least these three basic things about God:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet, the Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit; they are all distinct.
3. All three "Persons" are coequal and coeternal.

That is what we have to make sense of.

You people just parrot what you are told.
Without the introduction of this doctrine by men, no one would come up with it by themselves

As to point one you are correct
On point two you are wrong Jesus said “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30).
Jesus said, "He that sees me has seen the Father John" (14:9). You make the distinction He does not!
Also nowhere in Scripture is the Holy Spirit referred to as God? Jesus said that He would send the Comforter. He as God could not send God.
Jesus was manifest in the flesh, God is a Spirit, nowhere is the word persons used.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

• One God that was manifest in the flesh, this was temporary as He returned to the Father. According to the trinity logic however, John 16:28 would represent two God's.

• Christ clearly did not allow for the false doctrine of the trinity to hold any weight.
  
  In Christ alone we can have Redemption and forgiveness of sins; as well Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:14-15).
  
  What Jesus declared in the gospel of John should easily destroy the false teaching regarding the doctrine of the trinity.
  
  • If you know me, you know my father also, because I and the Father are One (John 14:7, John 10:30).
  • From this present time you both know the Father, and have seen him; this was possible because God was manifest in the flesh (John 14:7, 1 Tim 3:16).
  • He that sees me has seen the Father John (14:9).
  • I am in the Father, and the Father is in me (John 14:11).
  • The Father hath life in himself; also it is given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26).

 

[JLB]

I know you quoted the YLT, hence my comment. The YLT, at the eSword version, has all the extra text greyed out, meaning that it isn't actually in the Greek text.

I have already told you that this has nothing to do with what I posted; it is completely irrelevant. Please address the point I actually, and clearly, made.

What point and question would you have me answer?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I know you quoted the YLT, hence my comment. The YLT, at the eSword version, has all the extra text greyed out, meaning that it isn't actually in the Greek text.

I have already told you that this has nothing to do with what I posted; it is completely irrelevant. Please address the point I actually, and clearly, made.

Could you please answer this question.

I see it is indeed relevant to this discussion.


Based on what the whole of the scriptures say, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?

Are these three:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• other: Please explain

JLB

 

[Free]

Could you please answer this question.

I see it is indeed relevant to this discussion.


Based on what the whole of the scriptures say, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?

Are these three:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• other: Please explain

JLB

It has absolutely nothing to do with any point I have made. Please read what I have actually written; it actually is very clear and plain. I'm not going to repeat myself. If you will not address what I have posted, then our discussion has ended.

 

[JLB]

It has absolutely nothing to do with any point I have made. Please read what I have actually written; it actually is very clear and plain. I'm not going to repeat myself. If you will not address what I have posted, then our discussion has ended.

I read what you wrote and see no question.

Feel free to ask me a question about this subject.

But please be courteous enough to answer mine.

Could you please answer this question.

I see it is indeed relevant to this discussion.


Based on what the whole of the scriptures say, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?

Are these three:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• other: Please explain

JLB

 

[billybalke]

But without controversy this great mystery is understood by comprehending the Awesome power demonstrated, when God was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16).

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus in the flesh did not become another God at all; he did however proceed or come forth from God, as the visible manifestation of God Himself.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

The earthly appearance of Christ Jesus represents the one true God; with many majestic names - that sacrificed a part of himself for us in the flesh. Once He returned to the father the singularity of God was as it was before He arrived.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

The mystery of the trinity is revealed as yet another man made doctrine of deception.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

There is no real mystery of the trinity; God was manifest in the flesh, and revealed to the world as Jesus the Christ. Christ always was, is, and will forever be God.

Although one could refer to the manifestation of Jesus in the flesh as a person, it must be understood that he is unlike any other. He was not created from the seed of man, was sinless and had the power to rise from the dead unassisted (John 10:18). When one adds Christ to the name of Jesus, the mystery of the trinity dissolves. Christ is not a person, but is God, and death is not possible for an Eternal God.

John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The carnal mind is in opposition against God, for it has not submitted to the law of God, nor can it (Romans 8:7). It is this carnal mind that creates the mystery of the trinity.



People generally speaking are attracted to the wisdom of men, especially those who have graduated from a theological seminary or college. Many religious leaders speak of the mystery of the trinity, or use words such as hermeneutics, exegesis or trinitarian theology. Congregations become enamored with the supposed superior spiritual intellect of these leaders, and their ostentatious words.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

It is the institution of the Holy Spirit whereby we are taught to rightly divide the Word of Truth, enabling us to then share these truths with others. God does this and not man.

Instead of receiving a diploma from a man made institution of deception, true followers of Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). Our graduation ceremony is when Christ returns with our Salvation, and says well done faithful servant (Math 25:21).

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Too many people readily accept the mystery of the trinity doctrine as an essential teaching because self proclaimed ministers say it is so. Without the teaching of the Holy Spirit, men speak with their own wisdom which is dangerous and destructive.

The simple believes every word but the wise considers all things (Prov 14:15; Rom 16:18).

The genesis of the mystery of the trinity may be as a result of the obvious mistranslation from a verse many are familiar with. God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”.

When one removes the inserted words, let us and our, the verse takes on a completely different meaning.

One singular God spoke, not many Gods or persons.

The so-called mystery of the trinity does not add clarity to the nature of God, and it certainly diminishes the essence and Glory of Jesus.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The first use of the word and (G 1161) in the above verse is used correctly, as it is a continuative. The second use of the word and (G2352) should be translated as even, also or indeed, as it is a connector. The words thou hast, need to be completely removed from this verse as well.

The correct interpretation of this verse is as follows.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, even Jesus Christ, whom is sent forth.

The only True God is also known as Jesus Christ, the Word and our Messiah.

Hi New Covenant Preacher. Maybe I've missed your answer or my question was obscured by other posters but may I again ask the question for your answer which is this: If asked "what must I do to be saved", what is your answer?
Thanking you in advance, God bless.

 

[Free]

You people just parrot what you are told.

Please don't be so arrogant as to presume that only those who hold to your position have studied the Bible and the rest only parrot. That statement is not only false, it gets us nowhere.

It also ignores the fact that the primary way God speaks to us through his word is through those preachers and teachers whom He has gifted and called. So of course we are supposed to learn through others, as well as through personal study.

Without the introduction of this doctrine by men, no one would come up with it by themselves

Your argument is self-refuting because according to you, man could not have come up with it by themselves, yet, according to you, at some point some person or persons actually did come up with it.

And a couple of glaringly obvious points remain:

1. If no one could have come up with it by themselves, it would have to have been taught by Christ and revealed by the Spirit.

2. It ignores the fact that people actually have and do come to an understanding of a triune God by only reading Scripture.

As to point one you are correct
On point two you are wrong Jesus said “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30).
Jesus said, "He that sees me has seen the Father John" (14:9). You make the distinction He does not!
Also nowhere in Scripture is the Holy Spirit referred to as God? Jesus said that He would send the Comforter. He as God could not send God.
Jesus was manifest in the flesh, God is a Spirit, nowhere is the word persons used.

John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

• One God that was manifest in the flesh, this was temporary as He returned to the Father. According to the trinity logic however, John 16:28 would represent two God's.

• Christ clearly did not allow for the false doctrine of the trinity to hold any weight.
  
  In Christ alone we can have Redemption and forgiveness of sins; as well Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:14-15).
  
  What Jesus declared in the gospel of John should easily destroy the false teaching regarding the doctrine of the trinity.
  • If you know me, you know my father also, because I and the Father are One (John 14:7, John 10:30).
  • From this present time you both know the Father, and have seen him; this was possible because God was manifest in the flesh (John 14:7, 1 Tim 3:16).
  • He that sees me has seen the Father John (14:9).
  • I am in the Father, and the Father is in me (John 14:11).
  • The Father hath life in himself; also it is given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26).

I don't have the time to address this verse by verse, suffice it to say that not a single thing you have give here proves the Trinity false.

 

[Free]

I read what you wrote and see no question.

Feel free to ask me a question about this subject.

But please be courteous enough to answer mine.

Could you please answer this question.

I see it is indeed relevant to this discussion.


Based on what the whole of the scriptures say, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?

Are these three:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• other: Please explain

JLB

I didn't say I asked a question. Again, you are reading things into what I wrote. I made a point that not only did you fail to address, you're bringing up a point that has nothing to do with what I posted.

 

[new covenant preacher]

Hi New Covenant Preacher. Maybe I've missed your answer or my question was obscured by other posters but may I again ask the question for your answer which is this: If asked "what must I do to be saved", what is your answer?
Thanking you in advance, God bless.

Dear Sir, according to mainstream Christianity the formula is in this verse
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[JLB]

I didn't say I asked a question. Again, you are reading things into what I wrote. I made a point that not only did you fail to address, you're bringing up a point that has nothing to do with what I posted.

It's seems you just want to argue.

I asked you to ask a question, and I will be glad to answer.

I addressed your post, but you didn't like it.

I asked a simple question and you have only said my question is irrelevant.

I see it is indeed relevant to this discussion.

If you believe what I have have to say is irrelevant then please just don't respond to this post.

Based on what the whole of the scriptures say, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?

Are these three:

• 1
• 2
• 3
• other: Please explain

JLB

 

[new covenant preacher]

Please don't be so arrogant as to presume that only those who hold to your position have studied the Bible and the rest only parrot. That statement is not only false, it gets us nowhere.


1. If no one could have come up with it by themselves, it would have to have been taught by Christ and revealed by the Spirit.

2. It ignores the fact that people actually have and do come to an understanding of a triune God by only reading Scripture.


I don't have the time to address this verse by verse, suffice it to say that not a single thing you have give here proves the Trinity false.

If you believe that the trinity doctrine is spirit inspired so be it, Nothing left to say

No one has clearly refuted anything that I've said because it is Scriptural I just put the verses together that's all?
I know for the most part I'm wasting my time, as those with preconceived notions ignore anything that stands in the way of what they choose to believe.
Nothing I can do bout that I reckon.

 

[billybalke]

Dear Sir, according to mainstream Christianity the formula is in this verse
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Dear Sir, according to mainstream Christianity the formula is in this verse
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

My question was not about what "mainstream Christianity " says but what is your answer to the question "what must I do to be saved"?
God bless

 

[new covenant preacher]

My question was not about what "mainstream Christianity " says but what is your answer to the question "what must I do to be saved"?
God bless

Perhaps this will be of some use I don't know?
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-not-to-bring-division-but-restoration.70785/

 

[billybalke]

Perhaps this will be of some use I don't know?
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-not-to-bring-division-but-restoration.70785/

Have just read the above. Is that what you tell a person when one asks the question "men and brethren what shall we do"? Or "what must I do to be saved"?
God bless, Billy B.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you were asked the question "what must I do to be saved" what would you tell them?

I would tell them that the question is a totally different topic and to start another thread to discuss it.

iakov the fool

 

[billybalke]

I would tell them that the question is a totally different topic and to start another thread to discuss it.

iakov the fool

Parker I think you are right. I should have done this on the PM. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

On another thread I asked you a question which seemed to get covered by other posters so allow me to ask it on this thread.

If you were asked the question "what must I do to be saved" what would you tell them?
btw: I do not hold your position on this thread on the so-called Trinity doctrine.
Thank you, and God bless.

Still hoping you would answer my response from your original post.

Here it is again.


Thanks for the time you spent in giving us scriptures for what you believe.

I don't use the word Trinity, because this seems to be a controversial doctrine, and the word Trinity is not found in scripture, so I use the word Godhead.

Forgive me for being slow, but could you sum up your point for me, please.


Are you teaching Oneness: the belief there is one God, a singular divine Spirit, who manifests himself in three ways, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (the Holy Spirit).

The one scripture that speaks to this, but you didn't quote is 1 John 5:7


For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

• and these three are one.

Notice it says these three, are one.

It doesn't say this One is three.

If it said this One is three, then I would probably have to hold to some variation of the Oneness doctrine.


Your thoughts?



JLB