Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

[Runner]

Prove your conclusion stated above, please.

Ah, you've been paying attention to the "How to Argue with an Atheist" books and videos that are now popular. I like it!

When an atheist (or anyone else) makes an unequivocal self-contradictory (or "self-defeating") statement, you are instructed to throw it back at them. When a relativist states, "There are no absolute truths," you respond "Is that statement true?" The statement "There are no absolute truths" is facially self-defeating. (Or at least it appears to be self-defeating. As philosophers point out, a non-fallacious response would be, " "I don't know. In my worldview, my statements are probability based. They are not based on a false sense of certainty.")

But it doesn't really work here. If I say, for example, "One's love for one's wife cannot be proven as though it were a mathematical equation," do you think it makes sense to respond: "Prove your conclusion that one's love for one's wife cannot be proven as though it were a mathematical equation"? No, it doesn't - the assertion about one's love for one's wife is not the same form of assertion as "There are no absolute truths." The former assertion about one's love for one's wife is not self-defeating.

The Trinity is a human statement about a non-human reality - the internal nature of God. Hypothetically, God might clearly and unequivocally state (which He has not), "My internal nature is a Trinity comprising the unbegotten Father, the begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son." This clear and unequivocal revelation by God would be sufficient as proof that God is indeed a Trinity - but even then, we would lack a full understanding of what the statement means or entails because it would still be just words expressing a non-human reality we can never experience.

I can likewise state "I deeply love my wife," but you will never really know what this means or entails because you cannot enter into my internal reality. You may have your own understanding of what I mean by way of analogy because you love your own wife. In the hypothetical of God saying He is a Trinity, you don't even have an analogy.

When I say the Trinity is not something that can be proven as though it were a mathematical equation, I believe this is a self-evident truth because "the Trinity" is a human concept in human language being applied to an unknowable non-human reality. My statement is not facially self-contradictory.

(Just for the record, a syllogism merely requires that the conclusion follows logically from the premises. The conclusion does not have to be true for the syllogism to be valid. You can state the Trinity in the form of a valid syllogism. So I have dropped the reference to a syllogism. My point is simply that the Trinity is not something you can prove with certainty but is instead a human way of thinking and speaking about God.)

If you disagree and take the position "The Trinity is capable of proof as though it were a mathematical equation," the burden is on you to go ahead and prove it as though it were. We'll be waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting.

"The Trinity" is a human way of thinking and speaking about a non-human reality; that's the reality. You or I may offer plausible arguments as to why the Trinity is the most useful way for Christians to think and speak about God, or even the most likely to be correct way for Christians to think and speak about God, but we will never prove that God is a Trinity as though this were a mathematical equation.

 

[chessman]

Hypothetically, God might clearly and unequivocally state (which He has not), "My internal nature is a Trinity..."

Is that statement of yours 100% true on your worldview? Or 90% or maybe has a less than 50% probability of being true?

In my worldview, my statements are probability based.

If you disagree and take the position "The Trinity is capable of proof as though it were a mathematical equation," the burden is on you to go ahead and prove it as though it were.

Why, when all you would do is state it's a human way of thinking with a mere probability of stating truth:

"The Trinity" is a human way of thinking and speaking about a non-human reality; that's the reality.

You can state the Trinity in the form of a valid syllogism.

Correct. And if all of it's premises are true, then the inductive argument is sound and it's conclusion is true. BTW, 100% true. Which simplifies the effort by evaluating each premise individually.

Kind of like evaluating if it's specifically true that you have shown honor to your wife as a part of evaluating a syllogism concluding that you love your wife.

 

[MarkT]

I asked:

You answered:

Isaiah 9:6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​

Romans 15:33 Now may the God of peace be with all of you. Amen.​

Romans 16:20 And in a short time the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.​

According to Jesus, he was not sent to bring peace on earth. "I have not come to bring peace on earth". Mt. 10:34

 

[MarkT]

Ah, you've been paying attention to the "How to Argue with an Atheist" books and videos that are now popular. I like it!

When an atheist (or anyone else) makes an unequivocal self-contradictory (or "self-defeating") statement, you are instructed to throw it back at them. When a relativist states, "There are no absolute truths," you respond "Is that statement true?" The statement "There are no absolute truths" is facially self-defeating. (Or at least it appears to be self-defeating. As philosophers point out, a non-fallacious response would be, " "I don't know. In my worldview, my statements are probability based. They are not based on a false sense of certainty.")

But it doesn't really work here. If I say, for example, "One's love for one's wife cannot be proven as though it were a mathematical equation," do you think it makes sense to respond: "Prove your conclusion that one's love for one's wife cannot be proven as though it were a mathematical equation"? No, it doesn't - the assertion about one's love for one's wife is not the same form of assertion as "There are no absolute truths." The former assertion about one's love for one's wife is not self-defeating.

The Trinity is a human statement about a non-human reality - the internal nature of God. Hypothetically, God might clearly and unequivocally state (which He has not), "My internal nature is a Trinity comprising the unbegotten Father, the begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son." This clear and unequivocal revelation by God would be sufficient as proof that God is indeed a Trinity - but even then, we would lack a full understanding of what the statement means or entails because it would still be just words expressing a non-human reality we can never experience.

I can likewise state "I deeply love my wife," but you will never really know what this means or entails because you cannot enter into my internal reality. You may have your own understanding of what I mean by way of analogy because you love your own wife. In the hypothetical of God saying He is a Trinity, you don't even have an analogy.

When I say the Trinity is not something that can be proven as though it were a mathematical equation, I believe this is a self-evident truth because "the Trinity" is a human concept in human language being applied to an unknowable non-human reality. My statement is not facially self-contradictory.

(Just for the record, a syllogism merely requires that the conclusion follows logically from the premises. The conclusion does not have to be true for the syllogism to be valid. You can state the Trinity in the form of a valid syllogism. So I have dropped the reference to a syllogism. My point is simply that the Trinity is not something you can prove with certainty but is instead a human way of thinking and speaking about God.)

If you disagree and take the position "The Trinity is capable of proof as though it were a mathematical equation," the burden is on you to go ahead and prove it as though it were. We'll be waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting.

"The Trinity" is a human way of thinking and speaking about a non-human reality; that's the reality. You or I may offer plausible arguments as to why the Trinity is the most useful way for Christians to think and speak about God, or even the most likely to be correct way for Christians to think and speak about God, but we will never prove that God is a Trinity as though this were a mathematical equation.

Used to be when people heard something from God, they would bring it to the table. Not anymore. Not since the 4th century. Where are the words of God? Where are the Lord's teachings?

How quickly they forget. The people said they would serve the LORD, and they did for as long as they had Joshua and the elders who had seen the great work that the LORD had done for Israel. Then after Joshua and the elders died, another generation arose who did not know the LORD, and they served the Ba'als and other gods. Judges 2:6-13

So one generation later and they were back to making and serving idols. So let's not say the writings and the traditions of men who lived 300 years after Jesus and the apostles have to be considered true Christianity.

If there is to be any growth in the knowledge of God, we have to bring what we hear to the table.

 

[chessman]

According to Jesus, he was not sent to bring peace on earth. "I have not come to bring peace on earth". Mt. 10:34

Well He certainly did not bring peace between men and parents. But He did bring peace between men who acknowledge Him and God:

Matthew 10:32-34 “Therefore everyone who acknowledges me before people, I also will acknowledge him before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before people, I also will deny him before my Father who is in heaven. ... 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.​

And correspondingly, according to Luke, the angels declared peace among people with whom He is pleased at His birth.

Luke 2:14 “... peace among people with whom he is pleased!” ​

If Jesus is not in fact God, how does Jesus bring peace with God to people on Earth who acknowledge Him (Jesus)? Couldn't people just acknowledge the Father as God and God be pleased with them if Jesus were not God?

 

[Randy]

Well He certainly did not bring peace between men and parents. But He did bring peace between men who acknowledge Him and God:

​

If Jesus is not in fact God, how does Jesus bring peace with God to people on Earth who acknowledge Him (Jesus)? Couldn't people just acknowledge the Father as God and God be pleased with them if Jesus were not God?

At the 2nd coming Satan is locked up and Gods enemies are dealt with and Jesus will rule the nations. There will be no more war. There will also be healing for the nations. Again Jesus is ALL that the Father is. The exact image of the wisdom and power of God.
1corth 8:6 NIV
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[chessman]

I asked;
If Jesus is not in fact God, how does Jesus bring peace with God to people on Earth who acknowledge Him (Jesus)?

You replied:

At the 2nd coming Satan is locked up and Gods enemies are dealt with and Jesus will rule the nations.

Yep. The salvation and power and Kingdom of our God have come. Thus, Jesus is God.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. ​

 

[Randy]

I asked;
If Jesus is not in fact God, how does Jesus bring peace with God to people on Earth who acknowledge Him (Jesus)?

You replied:

Yep. The salvation and power and Kingdom of our God have come. Thus, Jesus is God.

​

yes an no

 

[MarkT]

Well He certainly did not bring peace between men and parents. But He did bring peace between men who acknowledge Him and God:

Matthew 10:32-34 “Therefore everyone who acknowledges me before people, I also will acknowledge him before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before people, I also will deny him before my Father who is in heaven. ... 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.​

And correspondingly, according to Luke, the angels declared peace among people with whom He is pleased at His birth.

Luke 2:14 “... peace among people with whom he is pleased!” ​

If Jesus is not in fact God, how does Jesus bring peace with God to people on Earth who acknowledge Him (Jesus)? Couldn't people just acknowledge the Father as God and God be pleased with them if Jesus were not God?

By faith. We are justified by faith in his Son. Therefore we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Why would God say he was the Son of God?

 

[MarkT]

Isaiah 43:13
“I am God, and also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work and who can hinder it?”

God is He. Not He is God. The Trinity says the Christ is God, but the LORD said he is God and also the Christ. God is He means He was derived from God. ie. his Son.

 

[chessman]

Why would God say he was the Son of God?

Because the one and only God is the Son and His Father and the Holy Spirit. For the same reason God is the Father, God is the Son.

Isaiah 9:6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​

Why would the Lord himself tell Isaiah that the virgin would call the Son's name "God with us", if it weren't true?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’​

 

[Randy]

Because the one and only God is the Son and His Father and the Holy Spirit. For the same reason God is the Father, God is the Son.

Isaiah 9:6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​

Why would the Lord himself tell Isaiah that the virgin would call the Son's name "God with us", if it weren't true?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’​

Because God the Father was with them "through" His Son
John 14:9-11 NIV
..Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

 

[chessman]

Because God the Father was with them "through" His Son

Umm, the Father was and is in Heaven (working on art) not on Earth.

Matthew 6:9 (KJV) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.​

Matthew 6:9 Therefore you pray in this way: “Our Father who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy. ​

John 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, and they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. ​

..Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father

The ...:

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ​

John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” ​

 

[Randy]

Umm, the Father was and is in Heaven (working on art) not on Earth.

Matthew 6:9 (KJV) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.​

Matthew 6:9 Therefore you pray in this way: “Our Father who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy. ​

John 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, and they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given to me, so that they may be one, just as we are. ​

The ...:

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ​

John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” ​

God is Spirit and His Spirit is in the world. Furthermore Jesus didn't attribute the works of proof that He was God but rather proof God was with and in Him. The Father.
I agree no one comes to the Father expect by Jesus. That is how God chose to forgive sin and why its a narrow road despite the many different religions in the world that state other methods to God.

YOU FORGOT TO ADD THIS LOCATION=>ITS THE FATHER LIVING IN ME DOING HIS WORK.

 

[chessman]

Jesus didn't attribute the works of proof that He was God but rather proof God was with and in Him. The Father.

John 20:30-31 Now Jesus also performed many other signs in the presence of the disciples which are not recorded in this book, but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. ​

Jesus (not the Father) performed many signs so that you may have life in His name. The Father is not even mentioned here.

That is how God chose to forgive sin

Good point:

John 10:17-18 Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” ​

Thus, the Son is God.

 

[Randy]

John 20:30-31 Now Jesus also performed many other signs in the presence of the disciples which are not recorded in this book, but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. ​

Jesus (not the Father) performed many signs so that you may have life in His name. The Father is not even mentioned here.


Good point:

John 10:17-18 Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” ​

Thus, the Son is God.

Jesus already stated the "works" He performed gave proof that the Father was in Him. That should cover all works. otherwise that sign wouldn't be true to what Jesus stated, it pointed to the Father living in Him doing His work.
JOHN 14:11 NIV Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

 

[Randy]

Jesus=>But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Jesus=>The Spirit of the sovereign Lord is upon me...
Jesus=Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. Matt 12:18 NIV (With light come accountability)
Acts 2:17 jkvFathers promise=>And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Matt 10:18-20
On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

The signs and miracles were by the Fathers Spirit at the will of Jesus who had been given such authority.

 

[chessman]

Jesus already stated the "works" He performed gave proof that the Father was in Him. That should cover all works.

It does. It's also why we shout for joy and set up banners over Jesus' voluntary death a taking back up His own life.

Psalm 20:5 May we shout for joy over your victory, and in the name of our God may we set up banners. May Yahweh fulfill all your requests.​

 

[Randy]

It does. It's also why we shout for joy and set up banners over Jesus' voluntary death a taking back up His own life.

Psalm 20:5 May we shout for joy over your victory, and in the name of our God may we set up banners. May Yahweh fulfill all your requests.​

IT also shows by whose Spirit - THE Fathers, the one true God, the one who sent JESUS

ONE GOD THE FATHER AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST

 

[MarkT]

Because the one and only God is the Son and His Father and the Holy Spirit. For the same reason God is the Father, God is the Son.

Isaiah 9:6 For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.​

Why would the Lord himself tell Isaiah that the virgin would call the Son's name "God with us", if it weren't true?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’​

Right. The LORD said, “I am God, and also henceforth I am He; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work and who can hinder it?” Isaiah 43:13

So at some point 'He' came into being. Because God said, "and also henceforth I am 'He'."

So from that time forward, in addition to being God, the LORD was He. Therefore the LORD God and He, God's anointed. Ps. 2:2 And at some point in time God sent Him to earth - He left God and He became flesh.

So it's understandable that God was in heaven and with us on earth. Therefore God with us.