Doctrine of the Trinity

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Re: Who is Jesus

Perceptive, you are. I sense a refreshing opportunity for highly-rational conversation devoid of default dogma.

Unfortunately such events are often quashed...:biglol

 

[Free]

Re: Who is Jesus

I hate to (further) 'jack a thread. Where would be best to discuss it?

Until the moratorium is lifted, the best place to discuss the Trinity would be to dig up one of the older, but not too old, Trinity threads. There should be several that can be used.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Re: Who is Jesus

The 'form' of God the Man, The Son, within whom existed the Spirit without Limit is an interesting contemplation. A Servant upholding 'all things' for sure, by the Power of His Word.

If I'm tracking your perception, we're in the vicinity. Note that scripture actually says, "... the word (rhema G4487) of His power,..."

In my understanding, everything missing from all God-models is regarding the logos of God relative to the rhema.

I note you may hold to the preexistence of all things in the Objective Mind of God. I lean toward that understanding myself. Origen also held to a fashion of this I believe.

Not in that sense, which is perceived as merely a diminutive "fiat"; but I would answer with a guarded "yes".

In reviewing your rather nice list of contemplations of God/Son/Holy Spirit I would also ask this of your statement here:

"The Son is Uncreated and the Only Begotten."

Doesn't God making or preparing a 'body' for Himself as The Son fix that event as a genuine 'creation of human flesh in time?' I have also had quite a time observing Gods Appearances in the O.T. as well, in what some term as Christophany or Theophany. It is quite hotly contested sometimes.

Hebrews 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me

s

Possibly the most incredibly insightful initial questions ever posed to me. (Happy dance.)

I can account for such a punctiliar event in time-space-matter as not being a creative act. The Son proceeded forth (exerchomai) and came (heko).

My view on Divine Embryology would clarify this after an initial overview. As i said, I maintain every contributing tenet of Trinity, but the result is quite distinct.

 

[Free]

Bump. :D

Edited: lol This post is newer than the above posts but it was in before them, just for clarification--I was not bumping a 4 minute old thread.

 

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Re: Who is Jesus

My view on Divine Embryology would clarify this after an initial overview. As i said, I maintain every contributing tenet of Trinity, but the result is quite distinct.

The matter of Divine flesh Procreation is an extremely complex matter of contemplation. The necessity of a Virgin is a vital part of the equation. But as you probably well know some sects of the early church fathers derailed in so many directions on this exact matter that their produce is not recognizable, to me anyway.

It does trouble me somewhat though to say that God had no created flesh as that would seem somewhat vital to the general tenet of 'things.' Even though He was described by Gabriel as 'that holy THING' early in Luke for example.

Any clear thinker comes fairly early in the contemplation of God that God is no THING i.e. there is 'no comparative thing' in creation that can be equated to God.

I personally prefer the ground of Mystery and the appearance of God Himself within His Own creation is a MYSTERY inDEED.

I also appreciated your comments on Objective being viewed by requirement of the subjective. I came to that identical conclusion. God the OBJECTIVE forming the SUBJECTIVE creation/viewer is a very nice contemplation. Where it really gets more interesting is in the sharing or the exchange. Being 'caught up' in the Mystery so to speak.

s

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

To begin, remember that all original Godhead formulations were undertaken as a means of apologetics to affirm and maintain Monotheism while accounting for Jesus and, ultimately, the Holy Spirit. Those God-models that presented Jesus as created and/or non-deity were focused on maintaining Monotheism in the face of pervasive Polytheism, Pantheism/Panentheism, and the many forms of Gnosticism.

Of the various existing formulated God-models, only two represent Jesus as uncreated deity by substance: Trinitarianism and whatever label one places on modern Oneness (Sabellianism/Monarchianism/Partripassianism). The Trinity formulation presents God as three "persons", which makes F/S/HS too discreet. Oneness presents God as three "manifestations", which makes F/S/HS too indistinct. These can be reconciled with a deeper search for the truth of God's constitution.

"In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made. ...And the Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." -John 1:1-3,14

John's use of logos is authorially unique. He is addressing much of his gospel and epistles toward refuting contemporary Gnostic and philosophical understandings. John's usage is referring to the Logos of God (Rev. 19:13). This contrasts to Gnostic usage to portray a lower demi-urge that was a lesser god, and Hellenistic understandings that hybridized Greek and Judaistic cultures.

The spoken word is comprised of two parts: Rhema and Logos (G4487 and G3056). Though distinct, rhema and logos are inseparable. There can be no logos without rhema. Alone within all of creation, man has been delegated the capability of logos. During the Incarnation of God's Logos (upper case), Jesus spoke the logos (lower case). Also represented by the logos (lower case) are the decrees and sayings of YHVH that are conveyed directly through messengers or inspired writings. (Upper/lower case is my personal distinction for clarity, NOT a reference to the newer texts' capitalization of Logos.)

Rhema is the substance content of subject matter that is thought and spoken about. Logos is the reason, wisdom, and intelligent thought and expression of that rhema subject matter. (The following is specifically of God's Rhema-Logos.)

Rhema is the Divine Content of the Divine Expression; Logos is the Divine Expression of the Divine Content. BOTH Rhema and Logos PRECEDE THE ACT OF THE UTTERANCE.

To be spoken, Rhema-Logos is breath-borne forth from the internal depths of God's divine essence, containing the very substance of that divine essence in the external speaking forth from the internal; and that breath (Pneuma) is God's OWN Spirit.

Rhema-Logos is the total substance of the complete divine essence of God's Self, externalized from silence to expression by the breath of His Spirit. The internal Word became the external Son, eternally pre-existent to proceed forth (exerchomai) and come (heko) from God.

Logos is the intelligent thought and speaking forth of all that is contained in its counterpart, Rhema. Logos is the rational reason, wisdom, intelligence, and thought of God spoken forth in the word or discourse of His plan and arrangement to reveal Himself IN and TO His creation. It is His thorough contemplation of pondering, knowing, and expressing outwardly and externally from Himself. It is the Divine Expression.

That which is being reasoned, contemplated, pondered, and thought to be outwardly expressed is the Rhema. Rhema is the substance content of Himself... God's OWN Self. Everything that God IS is within the Rhema portion of the spoken word. It is the subject matter spoken about. The Logos reasons and thinks to speak forth the entire substance of content that is God's OWN Self. Rhema is the Divine Content OF the Divine Expression.

Rhema and Logos precede the act of the utterance. God SILENTLY planned and arranged within Himself everything He was afyerwards about to utter through His Word. While He was thus planning and arranging with His own wisdom and reason, He was actually causing the very substance of His divine essence to become the Word (Ho Logos), borne forth by His breath after it was initiated in the depths of His soul by His mind (nous) and His will (thelema).

God thought and willed to speak forth the entirety of Himself upon His breath. His mind and will and emotions thought and chose and felt to express, uttering the internal Rhema by the Logos to become the external Son.

God's OWN Logos spoke forth His OWN Rhema of Himself as flesh. His OWN Self as flesh. Not AS a separate "person". Not BY a separate "person". Not THROUGH a separate "person". Not WITH a separate "person". His OWN Self, that ultimately became the person (prospon) of Jesus Christ; God's OWN personality manifest in the likeness of sinful flesh. The fullness of the Godhead (Theotes) bodily. God's OWN singular personality within a virgin-born man.

The Infinite Uncreated God as Spirit uttered Himself forth to become flesh. Nothing had ever been external to God before He spoke. His speaking begat that which was internal to become external. As He spoke, all creation came into existence as the realm in which He would visibly and tangibly reveal His invisible and intangible Self to mankind who was made in His image and likeness.

Jesus is literally God embodied in flesh. Jesus is NOT another "person", but is the person (prosopon) of God.

Person (prosopon G4383) is most often rendered face or presence. In general, it is that part of anything which is turned or presented to the eye of another. It is face, outward appearance, person, personal appearance, presence; in the presence of and/or in the sight of. Literally, the personal presence of one in sight of another.

Jesus is the personal outward appearance and presence of God Himself in the sight of mankind. The invisible, intangible, eternal, uncreated God embodied (the substance of) Himself to be visible and tangible within His temporal creation. Jesus is God's personal presence face-to-face with mankind. His Word spoke His eternal substance into temporal creation within flesh.

In Romans 8:3, "...God sending His OWN Son" can literally be translated "the Son of Himself." Someone recently read an exegesis of that, and after 6 months of wrestling with my view, they immediately understood all I was presenting. I include it for clarity for those it may help, but others may reject it entirely.

Creation (as a realm of existence) is external to God, though He is omnipresent within that creation. Contrast Pantheism (God IS everything and/or is IN everything) and Panentheism (Everything is IN God). The Son is the externalized Self of God in creation.

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[PneumaPsucheSoma]

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The following is how I exegete and present the Godhead. It is a HOW of what I've presented as much as it is a WHAT of God's constitution. HOW did God manifest His OWN self (person/prosopon) in the flesh?

The Rhema-Logos portion covered John 8:42...
"...for I proceeded forth (exerchomai) and came (heko) from God;..."

In John 15:26, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth (ekporeuomai) FROM THE FATHER..." [NO Filioque]

Ekporueomai is a compound of ek (G1537) and poreuomai (G4198).

Ek means out from; spoken of objects which before were in another object but are now separated from it, either in respect to place, time, source, or origin. It reflects the primary, immediate source from which something proceeds out of.

Poreuomai is from peira (G3984), with the idea of piercing; to pierce or run through to the other side. It comes from the base of peran (G4008).

The meaning of proceedeth (ekpoeuomai) is to be pierced through for separation and dispatch from the primary source and origin to another place and time.

Sent (pempo G3992) means sent, but with the idea of a temporary errand.

Proceedeth means... The Holy Spirit was pierced through for separation and dispatch from its eternal primary source and origin (the Father) to a temporal place and time.

In 2Thess. 2:8, we see scripture refer to the "spirit of his mouth". Rev. 1:16, 2:12, and 2:16 refer to the sharp two-edged sword OUT OF (ekporeuomai G1537) his mouth", as does Rev. 19:15 and 19:21.

OT Messianic Prophecy of Isaiah 42:1...
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; my elect, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my spirit upon him; he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles."

NT Quotation of Above in Matt. 12:18...
"Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall show judgement to the Gentiles."

Apostolic Confirmation of Above in 2Peter 1:17...
"For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

God's Soul is well pleased in the Son.
The Father is well pleased in the Son.

"For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." -Col. 2:9
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostasis - SUBSTANCE)..." - Heb. 1:3
"...in the person (prosopon) of Christ;..." -2Cor. 2:10
"...I will put MY SPIRIT upon him,..." -Matt. 12:18

The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit.
The Father is God's Soul (Self).
The Son (Word) is God's embodiment (Body).

God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.
Man is spirit-soul-body of one person.

While Incarnate, the Word (Logos) spoke the word (logos) out of His mouth.

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder (merismos G3311) of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow..." -Heb. 4:12

Merismos (G3311) is to separate or partition for distribution. Also rendered "gifts" in Heb. 2:4. Joints (harmos G719) is the parts of the body. Marrow (muelos G3452) is the source of blood. In Lev. 17:11, "...the life (nephesh H5315 - SOUL) of the flesh is in the blood." Joints-Marrow is body-soul.

The Word (Logos) is the only thing that can pierce (diikneomai) to the dividing asunder (merismos) of God's Soul-Spirit, Body-Soul.
The word (logos) is the only thing that can pierce (diikneomai) to the dividing asunder (merismos) of man's soul-spirit, joints-marrow.

The Holy Spirit was pierced through for separation and dispatch from its primary eternal source and origin (the Father) to a temporal place and time. God's OWN Logos did this to distribute His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul to indwell us in the temporal. We are His temple. The presence of His Spirit within the Holy of Holies (naos) of our spirit as His abode. There He makes our depraved soul into the Holy Place for us to serve. Our body is the outer courts where we can all physically join together.*

In Acts 2:3, when the Holy Spirit is given at Pentecost... "And there appeared unto them cloven (diamerizo G1266) tongues of fire..."

Cloven (diamerizo) comes from the same root (merizo) as divide asunder (merismos) in Heb. 4:12, and is also rendered "gifts" in Heb. 2:4. Dia denotes separation; merizo is to divide. It means separated into parts and divided up. In the passive participle, meaning divided flames distributed out to each person from one common source. Merismos is largely the same, meaning partitioned for separation and distribution.

God's OWN utterance of His OWN substance of His OWN Self as His OWN Logos divides asunder His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul to distribute it individually from the eternal into the temporal to accomplish our internal redemption from sin. Our spirit-soul is also divided asunder to receive the indwelling of God's OWN Spirit.

God is not three "persons". God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity. He embodied His OWN non-corporeal substance in the corporeal that we might see and know Him.

Jesus isn't 1/3 of God as the second of three God-"persons". Jesus IS God. The express image of His substance. The fullness of the Godhead bodily.

"A" word (person/s) isn't quick, powerful, and sharp enough to pierce and divide asunder any further than itself (person/s), and isn't part of the written record of the logos.

"THE" word is quick, powerful, and sharpet than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul-spirit and body-soul (joints-marrow). Soul-spirit on one edge; body-soul on the other edge.


[One caveat... Because Trinity conceptualizes F/S/HS as discreet rather than distinct, the prayer in Gethsemane is NOT to be perceived as God's Body somehow praying to God's Soul. I present no such fractured concept. Body = Embodiment. The embodiment was of God's eternal divine substance within a man with a rational human soul.]

There's much more, especially about the conception and how a soul is emergently derived by spirit-body joining (Gen. 2:7); but that's the basic outline.

P.S. NO Nestorianism, Eutychianism, or Apollinarianism is expressed or implied!!!!


More on Rhema...

"For with God, (no)thing (rhema G4487) shall be impossible." -Luke 1:37

"And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be (ginomai) it unto me according to thy word (rhema G4487)." - Luke 1:38

"But Mary kept all these things (rhema G4487), and pondered (sumballo G4820) in her heart." -Luke 2:19


Remember... "...faith is the substance (hupostasis G5287) of things hoped for (elpizo G1679), the evidence (elehchos G1650) of things not seen." -Heb. 11:1

And... "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person (hupostasis G5287), and upholding all things by the word (rhema G4487) of his power (dunamis G1411), ..." -Heb. 1:3a

And... "...and the power (dunamis G1411) of the Highest shall overshadow thee;..." - Luke 1:35

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[PneumaPsucheSoma]

(continued)

I see that the HS is God's OWN Spirit, not a third discreet God-"person". Jesus said He and the Father would come and make their abode in us, and we also see references to the indwelling HS. If none of the F/S/HS are each other and they're three distinct God-"people"; how do all three "persons" indwell us? And how are they ALL both indwelling millions of saints' glorified bodies and still hangin' around sitting in proximity finite positions in/on a throne?

God indwells each of our spirits temporally AND eternally by having divided asunder His OWN Spirit from His OWN Soul by His OWN Logos (spoken from the eternal realm INTO the temporal realm); and while Incarnate, the Logos spoke the logos (WITHIN the temporal realm) to divide asunder our sin-melded soul and spirit that He might make His abode in us as His temple.

In eternity, we ARE the many mansions (mone G3438) in His house (oikia G3614).

AND...

He then says (in John 14:2b), "I go (poreuomai G4198) to prepare a place (topos G5117) for you."

"I go" is poreuomai (to transport oneself, to go from one place to another), which is from peran (to pierce or run through). Jesus is going as the Logos to pierce through and partition for individual distribution the Holy Spirit.

"Place" is topos. Of things, as a place where something is kept such as a sword, meaning a sheath or scabbard.

Jesus (Ho Logos) is literally preparing to pierce and divide asunder God's Spirit from the Father (God's Soul); and to make room in our spirit for its resting place. The Sword of the Spirit in the sheath/scabbard of our spirit.

The High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek eternally dwelling in His Holy of Holies... OUR SPIRIT.


Jesus IS the Word that was spoken forth. Since the expression is preceeded [bless and do not curse]by the content OF expression, the Logos was eternally before the beginning WITH God.

With is pros (G4314), and indicates motion/direction, such as toward. "The Word had been toward (the) God and God had been the Word."

This is DIRECTIONAL, not RELATIONAL. A focus. An intensity of attention. Toward.

It is God's OWN Logos expressing God's OWN Rhema content of God's OWN substance, which is being externalized from eternal silent pondering and reason to be the expression of Himself within and upon the canvas of creation as the backrop for His Incarnation.

The Logos is God in the temporal. Once Incarnate, the Word was within a rational-souled man.

A finite point of presence for God's entire substance. God spoke the substance of Himself into His own creation.

The Father is God Transcendent.
The Son is God Immanent.
The Holy Spirit is God's OWN Spirit, which proceedeth from the Father.

God embodied His Soul and Spirit.
God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

PHRONEMA of the Spirit

What some refer to as a second consciousness was the human one during the Incarnation that was permeated with the Transcendant. Jesus let this mind be IN Him. We are to let this mind be in us which was ALSO in Christ Jesus. No second eternal divine consciousness.

And the single scriptural reference to "the mind (phronema G5427) of the spirit" (Romans 8:27) isn't nous (G3563), which is mind, the organ of mental perception and apprehension, of conscious life, of consciousness preceding actions or recognizing and judging them; intelligent understanding.

For phronema, the -ma suffix indicates the RESULTS of one's thinking. It's the tendency or inclination of the mind, it's bent. In Rom. 8:27, it refers to the way the HS influences our spirits in praying. It is NOT the organ of thought or consciousness itself; it is the outward influence from the nous (mind) and thelema (will) of the soul, for they are conjoined but with integrated functionality.

The HS is God's Spirit and functions according to communion, conscience, and intution faculties; which outwardly influences us as we pray in the spirit. Communion OF/WITH consciousness, but not ANOTHER consciousness. A "conduit" for consciousness. Phronimos, the adjectival form, is prudence, which is the sensible and practical wisdom in relationships. Phronema is the relational aspect of thinking or having a mindset; the outward communion of the mind of the soul.

God has ONE eternal consciousness (mind). During the Incarnation, Jesus had a human rational consciousness that was surrendered to the Transcendant. After the ascension, Jesus eternally inherited all that is the Father's, including His Soul. It was communally conveyed by the Spirit internally with His human spirit. One in substance. The mind-will-emotion-conscience-communion-intuition of God contained, yet unrestrained.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

God ontologically externalized the fullness of Himself to dwell in a rational-souled man conceived by Mary's faith [which is substance (hupostasis) (Hebrews 11:1)] in the rhema divine content of God's logos spoken to her by the angel. "Be it unto me according to thy (rhema)." "She cherished these (rhema) and pondered them in her heart." "He was the express image of His substance (hupostasis)..." (Hebrews 1:3).

From physical/spiritual birth to post-ascension inheritance of God's own Soul and Spirit and beyond, the Son is distinct in presence, but not ontologically distinct in any manner other than having an outward appearance to be beheld face-to-face. Jesus is the eternally-embodied perfect image of the Transcendant God. This is what begotten is for an uncreated transcendant spirit to procreate. God wouldn't reproduce the substance of Himself AS a biological process, but within that biological process at the conjoining level of body/spirit, which is the soul; emergently derived from spirit-body joining. That's how Jesus ultimately inherited the Spirit and Soul of God after the ascension.

We don't have a fragmented God-"person" indwelling us. We have God's OWN Spirit dwelling in OUR spirits by having been partitioned and distributed out from God's OWN Self (Soul is Self, not a diminutive "component" or aspect) by the Logos (Divine Expression) which contained the Rhema (Divine Content) of God's entire substance and identity. That embodied Logos spoke the logos out of His physical mouth while Incarnate, which then divided asunder OUR sin-melded soul-spirit (more on that later) to receive that indwelling Spirit in our spirit to regenerate our depraved soul from within, and to cleanse us of the sin in our members (body).

We have the faith-substance (hupostasis) to believe that logos and receive the externalized substance of Him within the logos.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

This is descriptive rather than purely defining...

ESSENCE & SUBSTANCE

God is a spirit. Spirit essence is unconveyable externally out from the infinite eternal realm. That innate, inherent essence must become more "substantial" to become externalized from itself. The rhema "contenting" of that essence "substantiates" it into subject matter that is substance content to be thought and pondered and ultimately uttered forth.

God as Spirit in the Spirit realm spoke forth His Spirit composition into a non-Spirit realm, maintaining the more-substantial nature of Spirit in the lesser physical realm. He merged and melded His very Self into a realm that isn't comprised of His Spirit-"Stuff". He is Transcendant, but brought His transcendance INTO the realm He remains Transcendant TO.

It wasn't an addition within/to Jesus. It was a melding WITH Jesus. God spoke His complete existence externally from Himself.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

An initial glimpse of Divine Embryology


The Logos is the sperm containing every strand of every helix of the Rhema spiritual DNA of God. The breath (Spirit) ejaculates that substance external to God at the utterance with the surrounding semen of the expanse of the created universe that is time-space-matter. That Logos (the Word is the seed) swims in the semen of the created realm within time until it progresses to the place where that Rhema-substance is believed upon by the faith-substance and conceived within that faith as the ova to embed physically in the lining of Mary's natural uterus to take on humanity while having the fullness of the Godhead (singular totality of God's nature) dwelling in Him.

This ties in with the propagation of souls and other topics through which we can perceive the spiritual (eternal) by the natural (temporal). God was manifest in the flesh. One manifestation.

AND... This is specifically NOT the Father "becoming" the Son. It's the procreation of God with Him Fathering (thinking/choosing... mind/will - soul faculties) the substance of Himself into flesh as the Son. A realm-to-realm procreation of the one uncreated Spirit-being that is God.

Creation was by/through/from/with the Logos. All the either/ors are just words without functional conceptual meaning. This is the procreation of uncreated Spirit, and biological creation depicts it. That's part of being in His image... ALL of it; including soul propagation.*

There had to be SOME of creation external to God that accompanied the Logos, since nothing had ever been extenal to God before. There's a "sweet spot" of reconciling creation by/through/from/with in regard to the Logos of God. The initial key is: the Logos is not anything BUT the Logos of God. Not a co-existent adjacent "person". Not merely a fiat of thought. Not created at any point. Not coming into existence at any point.

Before I move on to other areas like Soul Propagation, I think I should divulge more from a biological perspective for correlation.

There are various contributing sources and content for/of pre-seminal fluid and seminal fluid, and all distinction can be drawn from them. Pre-seminal fluid is produced as an alkaline neutralizer for an acidic environment and for lubrication; both in the initiating and recipient reproductive tracts. It is produced by the bulbourethral glands in conjunction with the Littre glands, and CAN contain spermatozoa by its proximity to early prostate-secreted seminal fluid.

Seminal fluid is comprised of several things from several sources: testes, bulbourethral glands, prostate, and seminal vesicles. Seminal plasma contains a complex range of organic AND inorganic constituents. The spermatozoa are from the testes. The first part of the seminal fluid comes from the prostate and contains virtually all the reproductive spermatozoa by the millions. The latter part of the semen comes from the seminal vesicles and contains only minute traces of spermatozoa. The immediate coagulation of semen is contributed to this latter part keeping the earlier part closer to the point of possible insemination. It also provides a number of supporting components for the spermatozoa, including fructose as an energy source. (There are volumes more, but I hope this is as accurate as it is brief.)

Spiritually and scripturally, we have several points to correlate and reconcile. The uncreated internal Logos proceeded forth externally. The Logos created ALL things, including the celestial realm and/or its content and beings.

The pre-seminal fluid and "stages" of seminal fluid (all predominantly [living] water... hmmm.) must represent emergence/procession and creation in order according to the written record OF the Divine Expression... scripture.

That said, I posit the Logos was/had a (non-interrelational) divine form of some kind between initial procession at the utterance and the time-constrained final Incarnation.

I'm going to try and keep this concise and relevant to the "high points", though there is incredible detail to correlate.

First, an excerpt about spirit-soul interfunctionality. The soul is mind-will-emotion and all resulting activities (belief, opinion, deduction, volition, intent, etc.). The spirit is communion-conscience-intuition and all resulting activities. Though the spirit doesn't have a mind, it is integrally conjoined to the soul and conveys all soulical functionality outward. The corresponding receptor faculties in man's "breathed" spirit convey them inwardly to the soul and its faculties, with final action demonstrated by/with/through the members of the body. This "flow" of communion, etc. of the Spirit UPON man is what was abrogated by sin onset and is woefully and inadequately misrepresented by the doctrine of Original Sin.

More on this later, as we hopefully progress toward associated details of the Incarnation and beyond. All the above was to lay a bit of foundation for understanding the outward conveyance of God's Soul-faculty activity by His Spirit.

The pre-seminal fluid is the preliminary excretion that preceeds the full expulsion of the seminal fluid. This is the externalization of the first traces of the spiritual realm and the divine form for the uttered Logos from God's Soul. Soul is the entire Self, not just a component; it's the center of "being"; the "I Am" of God; His existence. He is the Eternal Father because His entire divine Rhema substance has always been thought, intended, and felt to become externalized as the Son. The Logos is the Eternal Son because of always having been in the "loins" of God to be Fathered.

God's thelema (will) inherently includes the absolute action accompanying intent and volition. If God thinks and wills, absolute reality results. Father/Son Eternality is internal. The begetting is spiritually manifested at the utterance and physically manifested at implantation of the Logos-fertilized oocyte of Mary in the lining of her womb. But in the Rhema substance (subject matter) as Divine Content, the Divine Expression (Logos) was Eternally Begotten TO be manifested BOTH spiritually and physically.

The early seminal fluid contains virtually all of the prostate-contributed spermatozoa, followed by the latter seminal fluid that has other purposes. The seminal plasma contains both organic (natural) and inorganic (supernatural) content. The inorganic content is the created spiritual realm and beings by the Logos. The organic content is the created temporal realm and beings by the Logos. Only 10% of the ejaculate is spermatozoa, while 90% is seminal fluid.

After the initial pre-seminal fluid externalized a preliminary form, the Logos took that form via the early stage of seminal fluid expulsion; and was followed by the Logos creating the spiritual and natural realms of existence, IN which He would be the complete divine substance of the Transcendant God who was made known throughout the manifestation process of being externally begotten.

There are volumes leading into this, and volumes more following on to the Incarnation and all things of human interrelationality. Ultimately, the Logos pierces to the dividing asunder of God's Soul and Spirit, Body and Soul (His Body diseminated out by the Logos to within Mary; and the Rhema substance received by Mary's faith substance); and the Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father to accomplish internally was abrogated when sin onset severed that external "flow" from God to man in perfect communion.

While Incarnate, the personified Logos spoke the logos out of His physical mouth. That logos pierces to the dividing asunder of OUR soul and spirit, body and soul; redistributing the interposed functionality of our constitution, bringing redemption, justification, and sanctification from WITHIN as man's spirit is "resurrected" from its burial of death (thanatos - separation) in the soul. (Man's soul is depraved; man's spirit is redeemable good, and returns to God who gave it. The Calvi-Armi debate is rendered a false dichotomy, which can be resolved constitutionally.)

The Logos accomplished its willed purpose in the spiritual realm, while the logos accomplished its willed purpose in the temporal realm. The celestially-uttered Logos had to be Incarnate to temporally utter the logos. The eternal utterance encompasses both realms and will always be the perpetual Divine Expression. His glorified body will be eternally the point of presence for God's omnipresence; the Son having inherited all that is the Father's... the mind-will-emotion and its outward conveyance of consciousness by communion, conscience, and intuition. The "face" (prosopon) of God. The personal presence and appearance of one in the sight of another. The objective observed, becoming subjectively realized... "real"ization. Transcendance made "real".

THAT's the Gospel and eternal life... to believe on the Father AND Jesus Christ whom He hath sent.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Re: Who is Jesus

The matter of Divine flesh Procreation is an extremely complex matter of contemplation. The necessity of a Virgin is a vital part of the equation. But as you probably well know some sects of the early church fathers derailed in so many directions on this exact matter that their produce is not recognizable, to me anyway.

It does trouble me somewhat though to say that God had no created flesh as that would seem somewhat vital to the general tenet of 'things.' Even though He was described by Gabriel as 'that holy THING' early in Luke for example.

Any clear thinker comes fairly early in the contemplation of God that God is no THING i.e. there is 'no comparative thing' in creation that can be equated to God.

I personally prefer the ground of Mystery and the appearance of God Himself within His Own creation is a MYSTERY inDEED.

I also appreciated your comments on Objective being viewed by requirement of the subjective. I came to that identical conclusion. God the OBJECTIVE forming the SUBJECTIVE creation/viewer is a very nice contemplation. Where it really gets more interesting is in the sharing or the exchange. Being 'caught up' in the Mystery so to speak.

s

Great post! I look forward to any further conversation.

 

[JNathanK]

The trinity's important, because it teaches beings of flesh and spirit how to find their relationship and path to God. Christ is the template for us to follow.

 

[Davies]

PneumaPsucheSoma,

I was reading your post that indicated that you had a problem describing God as three 'persons', and I didn't quite understand. Would you say there is something that distinguishes Them? Perhaps person is a very inadequate term to describe God, but tell me what word does adequately describe the Trinity? You would say the Three have always eternally existed?

What I can think of that distinguishes the Three is their roles. I don't believe their roles affects their essence, but it does tell us that God is more complex than the view of one entity showing itself in three different forms, formally known as modalism.

You use heavy language and I've never heard a Christian have a problem with the term person in reference to God, but anything that would give me a better understanding, scripturally supported, is most welcome.

- Davies

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

PneumaPsucheSoma,

I was reading your post that indicated that you had a problem describing God as three 'persons', and I didn't quite understand. Would you say there is something that distinguishes Them? Perhaps person is a very inadequate term to describe God, but tell me what word does adequately describe the Trinity? You would say the Three have always eternally existed?

What I can think of that distinguishes the Three is their roles. I don't believe their roles affects their essence, but it does tell us that God is more complex than the view of one entity showing itself in three different forms, formally known as modalism.

You use heavy language and I've never heard a Christian have a problem with the term person in reference to God, but anything that would give me a better understanding, scripturally supported, is most welcome.

- Davies

Yes, I understand that the vocab of my lexical-type expression is eye-glazing for many. To deal with seminary types, it's vital; but is over the top for most laity.

Summarily...

The one singular transcendent God spoke forth the complete divine content of Himself upon His breath (Spirit), which in due course of time would be embodied in flesh within the created realm that came into existence with that utterance. His OWN Word divided asunder His OWN Spirit externally outward from His transcendent Self (Soul is Self) into immanent creation, so that in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fullness of the Theotes (Godhead) bodily. One "who" existing in two realms; the immanent being a substantial manifestation of the transcendent.

The Father is God Transcendent. The objective divine singular personage to be made subjective... realized. God "real"-ized; made real.
The Son is God Immanent. The subjectively "real"-ized objective God, born from realm to realm by Divine procreation.
The Spirit is God's OWN Spirit, partitioned for distribution outwardly from God into creation to indwell the Son and, ultimately, mankind by grace through faith.

God embodied His Soul and Spirit.
God is Spirit-Soul-Body of One Divinity.

We are in His image as spirit-soul-body of one person.

God is Tripartite, not Triune.

 

[Davies]

If what you are saying is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created at some point, then I think this is a different understanding then what has been commonly understood within orthodoxy. When I say created, I mean Jesus and the Holy Spirit didn't always exist as distinguished entities, but the Father brought them about. Perhaps the early church didn't describe this facet of God, because it wasn't given to them. I'm willing to allow this aspect of God to be a mystery. I will look forward to understanding when I'm fully sanctified at death, when man is fully humbled and exalted. Thanks for your comments.

I wonder what the reason was for interpreting God as Triune rather than Tripartite? Surely, the early interpreters would have been careful in making such a fine distinction. Do you know where I can find this information without you typing it all out for me or is this your own interpretation?

Thanks,

- Davies

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

If what you are saying is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created at some point, then I think this is a different understanding then what has been commonly understood within orthodoxy.

I'm specifically saying the Son and Holy Spirit are NOT created. The Son proceeded forth (exerchomai) from the Father (John 8:42); and the Holy Spirit proceedeth (ekporeuomai) from the Father (John 15:26).

Before God spoke, nothing was external to Him and there wasn't any realm of existence He was "IN". God IS existence. He's the "I Am", which is eimi, to exist. The Son and the Spirit had to come out from Him. Procession is not creation. Exerchomai and ekporeuomai share a form of the same prefix, ex/ek. As in "exit"... "ex-ternal(ize)".

When I say created, I mean Jesus and the Holy Spirit didn't always exist as distinguished entities, but the Father brought them about. Perhaps the early church didn't describe this facet of God, because it wasn't given to them.

Actually, the early fathers had a quite similar understanding. Much like a fire in which another piece of wood was added and there became no distinction between each of the fiery pieces of wood. The Father is the fountainhead from which the Son and Spirit both flow; the source.

Much of my understanding is gleened from the writings of the early fathers themselves, but reflecting my deeper exegesis. But no, my view doesn't represent orthodoxy that asserts the Logos was eternally pre-existent AS a separate transcendent God-"person". That's the point of presenting my view. I believe it supercedes the incomplete orthodox formulation.

I'm willing to allow this aspect of God to be a mystery. I will look forward to understanding when I'm fully sanctified at death, when man is fully humbled and exalted. Thanks for your comments.

I understand, and many would agree with you. I am compelled to pursue the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him.

I wonder what the reason was for interpreting God as Triune rather than Tripartite?

I'm convinced it's because of the early sub-doctrine of "Simplicity"; which stated that God was not comprised of constituent "parts", and was instituted to exclude Pantheism (God is in all things) and Panentheism (All things are in God). Simplicity was abandoned around the fifth century because Trinity actually violates it.

Many have attempted to postulate God as Tripartite, but failed or stopped short. Most equivocate the threeness of Trinity with the threeness of man's tripartite nature, which is fallacious. It took me 12 years of prayer and fasting with Word and language study to exegete this. It has been a long, difficult journey.

Whatever else... I know "persons" is extra-biblical superimposition, and another answer must be presented. That rules out Trinity. So unless one subscribes to Modalism, there's not much room left. My exclusions list is littered with failed attempts to supplant Trinity. I believe the Tripartite view succeeds where all have failed. It's difficult to comprehend, but primarily because it's unfamiliar.

Surely, the early interpreters would have been careful in making such a fine distinction. Do you know where I can find this information without you typing it all out for me or is this your own interpretation?

Though I've distilled much from all the early writings, this is my own labor of interpretive exegesis. Oddly enough, though, Tertullian himself presented three "aspects" or "forms" of God before his treatise in 213AD against Monarchianism; in which he first presented "persons" to replace those terms. I believe Modalism prompted that change, and its influence on orthodoxy was forever compromising of truth.

I can suggest the ten-volume set of "The Ante-Nicene Fathers", edited by Roberts/Donaldson from Hendrickson Publishers.

 

[Davies]

PneumaPsucheSoma,

You may be convinced in your mind regarding the 'Tripartite' nature of God, but one word in the Greek which has a plurality of meanings won't convince me to change my mind. I did understand your take to be recognized as heresy. What you are saying is that the understanding of the Trinity as promulgated by Tertullian and then understood through the centuries up to the current day by thousands of scholars which happen to be all wrong. You'll understand if I don't accept the conclusion of your few years of study, not based on just the little information you gave me. For the Spirit and the Son to come out of the Father is to make them less, otherwise they wouldn't have existed unless the Father willed them to come forth or breathed out. This is another way of saying Jesus and the Holy Spirit were created in more fanciful terminology.

- Davies

 

[JNathanK]

When I say created, I mean Jesus and the Holy Spirit didn't always exist as distinguished entities, but the Father brought them about.

Thanks,

- Davies

I firmly believe that they've always existed, at least since creation, because I see it as the relationship between creation and the father that exists within all of us, with the holy spirit being the bridge between the two dualities. Christ, being sinless, could realize that relationship more than anyone else. Sin clouds our connection with divinity, where Christ was so pure that him and the perfection of the father were actually one and the same via their union through the holy spirit.