DOES GOD LOVE THE SINNER brought over from the WBC thread

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

I am hearing a new thing! A doctor commits violence towards a patient! Wow!
Do you call treating patients as violence?

I hope you are not intentionally missing my point - it sure looks that way.

The act of cutting open a person and carving out their kidney is clearly a form of violence in the sense that the doctor is "killing" a part of the patient. But s/he is doing so in the best interests of the patient. Clearly, the doctor does not cut into the patient "for kicks".

In the same way, it is at least conceivable that when God orders genocide, He is doing so in service of some larger good, and not because he "hates" anybody.

 

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Have you ever read that all these are punishments for their actions? Even so will the Lord will do until every human on earth.

I have never denied that God "punishes" people, although I have some doubts about how we should read the term "punish" in those settings.

 

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Of course out of love He makes sinners burn in hell forever because some Christians do not think God punishes sinners in hell out of hate but out of love.

(John 3:36) "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

I do not believe the scriptures teach that people spent eternity in torment. I suggest this is a misreading of scripture that has historically enabled the church to exert power over people's lives by threatening them with an eternity in hell.

 

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Wasn't Christ who is sinless hanging on the cross in our place for our sins taking Himself our punishment?

(Isa 53:5) But He [was] wounded for our transgressions, [He was] bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace [was] upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

(2Cor 5:21) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

I challenge your interpretation of the nature of what happened at the cross. And I do so knowing that most modern Christians agree with you.

I believe that the Bible never says that Jesus was punished on the cross, but rather that he was the vessel that bore our sins and suffered death in virtue of God directing His wrath at the true and proper target - sin, not Jesus.

Romans 8:3 tells us this. What was condemned at the cross? Jesus? Sin?. Let Paul tell us:

For what the law was powerless <sup class="crossreference" value='(G)'></sup> to do because it was weakened by the flesh,<sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(H)'></sup> God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh <sup class="crossreference" value='(I)'></sup> to be a sin offering.<sup class="footnote" value='[c]'>[c]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(J)'></sup> And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

And there is much more that could be said: Biblically, Jesus is not punished - he instead is killed in the violence of God attacking sin which Jesus bears in his body. In a sense, Jesus dies as a side-effect of the important event - the condemnation of sin.

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

I hope you are not intentionally missing my point - it sure looks that way.

The act of cutting open a person and carving out their kidney is clearly a form of violence in the sense that the doctor is "killing" a part of the patient. But s/he is doing so in the best interests of the patient. Clearly, the doctor does not cut into the patient "for kicks".

In the same way, it is at least conceivable that when God orders genocide, He is doing so in service of some larger good, and not because he "hates" anybody.

There is no evil in God for Him to do a smaller evil to balance larger good. You must learn to back every statement of yours with Scripture and scripture alone. It is His righteous judgment upon people who reject Him.

Christ said, (John 5:30) ".. My judgment is righteous ...

How about cooking and eating their own child?

(Jer 19:4) " Because they have forsaken Me and made this an alien place, because they have burned incense in it to other gods whom neither they, their fathers, nor the kings of Judah have known, and have filled this place with the blood of the innocents .. (Jer 19:9) "And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege and in the desperation with which their enemies and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair." ' .. (Jer 19:15) "Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: 'Behold, I will bring on this city and on all her towns all the doom that I have pronounced against it, because they have stiffened their necks that they might not hear My words.' "

(Lam 4:6) The punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people Is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, Which was overthrown in a moment, With no hand to help her! .. (Lam 4:10) The hands of the compassionate women Have cooked their own children; They became food for them In the destruction of the daughter of my people. .. (Lam 4:11) The LORD has fulfilled His fury, He has poured out His fierce anger. He kindled a fire in Zion, And it has devoured its foundations. .. (Lam 4:13) Because of the sins of her prophets [And] the iniquities of her priests, Who shed in her midst The blood of the just.

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

I challenge your interpretation of the nature of what happened at the cross. And I do so knowing that most modern Christians agree with you.

I believe that the Bible never says that Jesus was punished on the cross, but rather that he was the vessel that bore our sins and suffered death in virtue of God directing His wrath at the true and proper target - sin, not Jesus.

Romans 8:3 tells us this. What was condemned at the cross? Jesus? Sin?. Let Paul tell us:

For what the law was powerless <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.christianforums.net/#cen-NIV-28120G&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>G</a>)"></sup> to do because it was weakened by the flesh,<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.christianforums.net/#fen-NIV-28120b&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>b</a>]">[b]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.christianforums.net/#cen-NIV-28120H&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>H</a>)"></sup> God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.christianforums.net/#cen-NIV-28120I&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>I</a>)"></sup> to be a sin offering.<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.christianforums.net/#fen-NIV-28120c&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>c</a>]">[c]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.christianforums.net/#cen-NIV-28120J&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>J</a>)"></sup> And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

And there is much more that could be said: Biblically, Jesus is not punished - he instead is killed in the violence of God attacking sin which Jesus bears in his body. In a sense, Jesus dies as a side-effect of the important event - the condemnation of sin.

Death of Jesus is just a side-effect ? Nonsense.

(1Cor 15:3) .. that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

edited by staff

 

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

There is no evil in God for Him to do a smaller evil to balance larger good.

Strawman - no one suggesting God is doing evil. My point was clear - it is at least conceivable that God has to order these violent actions in service of some greater good.

Don't deceive yourself nor preach any heretic teachings.

You are employing a strategy that is, sadly, common in these discussions - accusing opponents of heresy when you have not made the case that yours is indeed the correct view.

Let's stick to scriptural arguments and the reader judge for himself (or herself) whose view is more scriptural.

You must learn to back every statement of yours with Scripture and scripture alone.

No kidding. The point is that you have not made your case - there are a number of Biblical challenges to your position that have yet to be countered.

 

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Death of Jesus is just a side-effect ? Nonsense.

(1Cor 15:3) .. that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures

I am quite confident that I am at least as well-studied in the scriptures concerning this issue as you.

In any event, the viewpoint I am adopting is not a wild invention of my own. It is basically the idea of renowned theologian NT Wright.

And I am quite sure that you are in no position to instruct Dr. Wright on the importance of "reading the Bible".

Now to the issue of Jesus dying for our sins. I, of course, have never, and would never deny this. What I would challenge is the notion of reading this as "God punished Jesus for our sins.

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

I am quite confident that I am at least as well-studied in the scriptures concerning this issue as you.

In any event, the viewpoint I am adopting is not a wild invention of my own. It is basically the idea of renowned theologian NT Wright.

And I am quite sure that you are in no position to instruct Dr. Wright on the importance of "reading the Bible".

Now to the issue of Jesus dying for our sins. I, of course, have never, and would never deny this. What I would challenge is the notion of reading this as "God punished Jesus for our sins.

God gave us Holy Spirit not NT Wright to teach us.

Christ died for our sins which you too agree. Then, what makes you think that our sins are not punishable? There is a bit deviation: God is not punishing Jesus but rather He took our place and received our punishment upon Himself in our place for our sins - both are very different.

(Matt 25:46) "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

(2Pet 2:9-10) [then] the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. [They are] presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Strawman - no one suggesting God is doing evil. My point was clear - it is at least conceivable that God has to order these violent actions in service of some greater good.

The violent actions referred by you are not for any "greater good" but God's righteous Judgment and His punishment upon people who practice iniquity.

You essentially justify "killing" or "murder' for "greater outcome of good". God is not killing or murdering, but judging and punishing. Both are different. If you take judgment out of equation, then you make God a murderer.

 

[Navigator]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

The violent actions referred by you are not for any "greater good" but God's righteous Judgment and His punishment upon people who practice iniquity.

You essentially justify "killing" or "murder' for "greater outcome of good". God is not killing or murdering, but judging and punishing. Both are different. If you take judgment out of equation, then you make God a murderer.

Felix I have a question for you. I work with 4th to 8th grade inner city children at a Bible focused youth center, and we are going through a series (like a vacation Bible school) focusing on Joshua. So obviously...as you know...there's a lot of "killing" involved. The concept itself is very hard to impart on such young minds. They tend to view it more as "murdering" rather than any sort of judgement. Would you or anyone else have any idea how to push the judgement point home to younger kids?

*I don't mean to hijack this thread...I was only looking for a response or two. If I get my answer..you're more than welcome to delete my post. ;)

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Felix I have a question for you. I work with 4th to 8th grade inner city children at a Bible focused youth center, and we are going through a series (like a vacation Bible school) focusing on Joshua. So obviously...as you know...there's a lot of "killing" involved. The concept itself is very hard to impart on such young minds. They tend to view it more as "murdering" rather than any sort of judgement. Would you or anyone else have any idea how to push the judgement point home to younger kids?

*I don't mean to hijack this thread...I was only looking for a response or two. If I get my answer..you're more than welcome to delete my post. ;)

They will not tend to view as murder but as judgment if taught correctly. These will not affect young minds but grow them in fear of the Lord.

(1Sam 17:33) And Saul said to David, "You are not able to go against this Philistine to fight with him; for you [are] a youth, and he a man of war from his youth."

The word "youth" means:
H5288 נַעַר na`ar (nah'-ar) n-m.
1. (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence
2. (by implication) a servant
3. (also, by interchange of sex), a girl (of similar range in age)

Basically, David was just a boy of the same age group from 4th grade to 8th grade. You are afraid of the speaking about "killing" and it's impact on such "young minds", but God used such a young boy to cut the head of Goliath as we read in 1 Sam 17.

Was David psychologically affected and the killing by his own hands affected his young mind? That is a lie from pit of hell. Be bold to preach the truth as it is and they will hold it till their death.

 

[Grazer]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Not all of it is Gods judgement though which was the point I was making in http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=43936

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Not all of it is Gods judgement though which was the point I was making in http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=43936

They are all judgment of God.

Things don't happen random. Nor God is simply killing and destroying some in favor of another for fun.

This is God Himself speaking:

(Job 4:7) "Remember now, who [ever] perished being innocent? Or where were the upright [ever] cut off?

 

[Grazer]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

They are all judgment of God.

Things don't happen random. Nor God is simply killing and destroying some in favor of another for fun.

This is God Himself speaking:

(Job 4:7) "Remember now, who [ever] perished being innocent? Or where were the upright [ever] cut off?

But that's not what Deuteronomy 7:3-5 says

Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

He orders the destruction of an entire civilisation because a) they have the ground God promised and b) they will lead them away from God. This is not about the Canannites being worse than anyone.

In further passages, God allows women and children to be taken (As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies - Deut 20:14)

At the end of the day, God appears to be sanctioning genocide and slavery in these passages. I'm sorry but this causes me to stop and think. I don't agree with your answers re: judgement for the reasons I've put in the other thread and above.

From the perspective of the NT it doesn't overly matter to me personally as Jesus as taken the punishment due to me but from studying scripture and Gods nature it raises a lot of questions.

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

But that's not what Deuteronomy 7:3-5 says

Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire.

He orders the destruction of an entire civilisation because a) they have the ground God promised and b) they will lead them away from God. This is not about the Canannites being worse than anyone.

In further passages, God allows women and children to be taken (As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies - Deut 20:14)

At the end of the day, God appears to be sanctioning genocide and slavery in these passages. I'm sorry but this causes me to stop and think. I don't agree with your answers re: judgement for the reasons I've put in the other thread and above.

From the perspective of the NT it doesn't overly matter to me personally as Jesus as taken the punishment due to me but from studying scripture and Gods nature it raises a lot of questions.

(Deut 7:3-5) "Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son. For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the LORD will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. But thus you shall deal with them: you shall destroy their altars, and break down their [sacred] pillars, and cut down their wooden images, and burn their carved images with fire.

The verse you point does not contain any of the reasons for options a & b. The true reason for destruction of entire civilization is because of their abominations as described in Lev 18 (you have to read the whole chapter to know their sins).

(Lev 18:24-28) ' Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations, [either] any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who [were] before you, and thus the land is defiled), lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that [were] before you.

It is also not true God only gave such a possession of the promised land to Israel alone but He gave such lands to all. But, those lands will vomit them if they commit sins and abominations.

• (Deut 2:2-5) "And the LORD spoke to me, saying: You have skirted this mountain long enough; turn northward. And command the people, saying, "You [are about to] pass through the territory of your brethren, the descendants of Esau, who live in Seir; and they will be afraid of you. Therefore watch yourselves carefully. Do not meddle with them, for I will not give you [any] of their land, no, not so much as one footstep, because I have given Mount Seir to Esau [as] a possession.
• (Deut 2:9) "Then the LORD said to me, 'Do not harass Moab, nor contend with them in battle, for I will not give you [any] of their land [as] a possession, because I have given Ar to the descendants of Lot [as] a possession.' "
• (Deut 2:19) 'And [when] you come near the people of Ammon, do not harass them or meddle with them, for I will not give you [any] of the land of the people of Ammon [as] a possession, because I have given it to the descendants of Lot [as] a possession.' "

The way Israel is destroying the 7 nations in the promised land is nothing new. Just as God allowed Israel to conquer and posses, He allowed descendants of Esau to conquer Horites and take as a possession.

(Deut 2:12) The Horites formerly dwelt in Seir, but the descendants of Esau dispossessed them and destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their place, just as Israel did to the land of their possession which the LORD gave them.

Hope this helps.

 

[Grazer]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Thanks Felix, yes that has been useful. Apologies, I put the wrong verse for option A. In was in Deuteronomy 7:1-2

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations —the Hittites, Girga@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy

God allowing possession of the land is not a massive issue, it's the nature of how he did it and I still have issue of Deuteronomy 20:14. I guess this is going to take a lot of work lol

 

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

God gave us Holy Spirit not NT Wright to teach us.

Do you really not see the problem in this statement. Clearly, NT Wright would say "God gave us the Holy Spirit, not felix to teach us".

Anyone can claim that their interpretation of the Bible is guided by the Spirit.

Christ died for our sins which you too agree.

Yes, I agree.

Then, what makes you think that our sins are not punishable? There is a bit deviation: God is not punishing Jesus but rather He took our place and received our punishment upon Himself in our place for our sins - both are very different.

My claim, which I believe is consistent with Paul's argument in Romans is, again, this: God did not punish Jesus on the cross, He punished sin on the cross.

Let me quote from NT Wright:

God, says Paul, condemned sin. Paul does not, unlike some, say that God condemned Jesus. True, God condemned sin in the flesh of Jesus; but this is some way from saying, as many have, that God desired to punish someone and decided to punish Jesus on everyone's behalf. Paul's statement is more subtle than that. It is not merely about a judicial exchange, the justice of which might then be questioned (and indeed has been questioned). It is about sentence of death being passed on "sin" itself, sin as a force or power capable of deceiving human beings, taking up residence within them, and so causing their death (7:7-25) ... For Paul, what was at stake was not simply God's judicial honor, in some Anselmic sense, but the mysterious power called sin, at large and destructive within God's world, needing to be brough to book, to have sentence passed and executed upon it, so that, with its power broken, God could then give the life sin would otherwise prevent

Now: You may not agree with this, but it is a clear statement of an interpretation of the nature of the atonement. And I believe it is probably the correct interpretation, even though it does not (yet) have mainstream acceptance.

 

[Drew]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

(Matt 25:46) "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I never said that God does not "punish"; I am saying that God did not punish Jesus. While we are on this topic, I assume that you, like me, believe that Jesus is divine. Does it make sense to you that God would say to Himself, "I, God am guilty of all the sins of the world and need to be held morally accountable, and therefore punished".

It certainly does not make sense to me. I do think it makes sense that Jesus becomes the "container" into which the "stain of sin / the personal force of sin" is poured so that, as Wright says, the proper thing that needs to be condemned -sin as a staining, damaging, personal force, is indeed punished.

Jesus still dies, of course. But the theology is not one where Jesus is considered to be an awful sinner who needs to be punished (how does that make any sense?). Instead, Jesus is the willing vessel who "contains" the personal force of sin, as that personal force is then condemned.

And Jesus dies as a consequence.

 

[felix]

Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video

Thanks Felix, yes that has been useful. Apologies, I put the wrong verse for option A. In was in Deuteronomy 7:1-2

When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations —the Hittites, Girga@#$%@#$%@#$%@#$%es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy

God allowing possession of the land is not a massive issue, it's the nature of how he did it and I still have issue of Deuteronomy 20:14. I guess this is going to take a lot of work lol

Deu 20:14 is for a general enemy not for the people who must be conquered in promised land. You must read it with context from below verses.

(Deut 20:16-18) "But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you [as] an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you, lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God.