Pizzaguy
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
(Felix, I TRIED not to ROFL - I know you mean well...)
+1
(Felix, I TRIED not to ROFL - I know you mean well...)
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DOES GOD LOVE THE SINNER brought over from the WBC thread
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Navigator
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
You could relate this back to Genesis 15 when God makes the covenant with Abraham, as many believe this is the first real foreshadowing in the Bible for Jesus.
17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates — 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashi.tes and Jebusites.”
The way covenants worked was that when the animals were cut in two, the two parties involved would "pass through" the middle of them with all the blood and guts and such to basically say "Hey, if I don't uphold my end of the bargain, you can cut me in two like these animals." Then it was burnt to finalize the agreement. Notice that in Genesis 15, God, or a manifestation of God in the firepot and torch pass through (two of them!) and Abraham never does. That is to say that God took on both ends of the covenant.
Sooo your statement "I, God am guilty of all the sins of the world and need to be held morally accountable, and therefore punished" really isn't all that far from the truth in my opinion. I don't think God felt guilty for the sins of the world, but was going to keep him promise, and part of that promise was to send Jesus to rid us of our sins.
You could relate this back to Genesis 15 when God makes the covenant with Abraham, as many believe this is the first real foreshadowing in the Bible for Jesus.
17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates — 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, 21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashi.tes and Jebusites.”
The way covenants worked was that when the animals were cut in two, the two parties involved would "pass through" the middle of them with all the blood and guts and such to basically say "Hey, if I don't uphold my end of the bargain, you can cut me in two like these animals." Then it was burnt to finalize the agreement. Notice that in Genesis 15, God, or a manifestation of God in the firepot and torch pass through (two of them!) and Abraham never does. That is to say that God took on both ends of the covenant.
Sooo your statement "I, God am guilty of all the sins of the world and need to be held morally accountable, and therefore punished" really isn't all that far from the truth in my opinion. I don't think God felt guilty for the sins of the world, but was going to keep him promise, and part of that promise was to send Jesus to rid us of our sins.
E
Elijah674
Guest
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
Hi, I am not Felex, but see if this chapter helps with the question? And the question in the thread of the west side Baptist church sure is not a hy/jacked question or much different from 'killings' (justified Executions) prevention being allowed as deterants by God. In other words, can we read what their motives were or are to do as they have done? And for the young ones that you ask about or the ones from the west side Baptist church, see if this might help?
A God of HATE or of Love? You be the Judge? Execution is Justice or Murder?
In 1 Cor. 9:1-3 we find that it was Christ God who was His own theocracy in the OT that HE required unrepentant sinners to be executed after warnings with no repentance found.
And in Joshua here we find that one man’s hidden sin, that was seen & open only to Christ/God, was the reason for 36 men’s death and because Christ would was not in their midst. And not only that, but we find that Christ/God DOCUMENTED THAT IT WAS THE WHOLE CAMP WHO WERE HELD GUILTY. (compare Rev. 18:4!) And Joshua was guilty as well. He decided that because the army against them was small that ‘his decision’ need not for him to inquire of God as was prior commanded.
Josh.7
[1] But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.
[2] And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is beside Beth-aven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
[3] And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; and make not all the people to labour thither; for they are but few.
[4] So there went up thither of the people about three thousand men: and they fled before the men of Ai.
[5] And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.
[6] And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
[7] And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
[8] O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies!
[9] For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
[10] And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
[11] Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
(OK: take notice for the FACTS of professed Christians here. Who are seen here responsible for death & are again responsible for the second death of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones?)
[12] Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
(again: Is Christ ‘IN’ any fold that teach false doctrine for truth? And who allows for even ‘open’ unrepentant sin to run rampant? Unchecked but known!)
[13] Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
(notice here: Surely the whole family knew what the consequences would be if they were caught! And surely they all knew besides Achan that something was burried in the ‘midst’ of their tent!
But notice that a LOVING CHRIST gave them another day to come forward in repentance. And surely all night long the STRIVING of the Holy Ghost must have been hard to ‘kick against’! As was the pre/flood ones & Acts 9 for Saul Paul to be!)
[14] In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.
(and take note again how even with the known results of verse 15 below of being found out, Christ gave them even more time to come forward. God signaled out the tribe first! Do you not think that all of this families hearts were pounding??)
[15] And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.
[16] So Joshua rose up early in the morning, and brought Israel by their tribes; and the tribe of Judah was taken:
[17] And he brought the family of Judah; and he took the family of the Zarhites: and he brought the family of the Zarhites man by man; and Zabdi was taken:
(we see even more time to repent & come forward! and still no movement.)
[18] And he brought his household man by man; and Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken.
(And we see that the repentance was because of being caught, or that it came to late. And was because of the of the required outcome that was pre/know that would take place.)
[19] And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.
[20] And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:
[21] When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.
[22] So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.
[23] And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.
[24] And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.
[25] And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
(Just ask yourself if you of today are in anyway responsible for the shape of the Matt. 7’s BROADWAY ones, and for that which is openly being taught for truth, or is not being taught at all? And bottom/line is what?? God is at fault or that these have gone the way of Achan & family????)
--Elijah
Hi, I am not Felex, but see if this chapter helps with the question? And the question in the thread of the west side Baptist church sure is not a hy/jacked question or much different from 'killings' (justified Executions) prevention being allowed as deterants by God. In other words, can we read what their motives were or are to do as they have done? And for the young ones that you ask about or the ones from the west side Baptist church, see if this might help?
A God of HATE or of Love? You be the Judge? Execution is Justice or Murder?
In 1 Cor. 9:1-3 we find that it was Christ God who was His own theocracy in the OT that HE required unrepentant sinners to be executed after warnings with no repentance found.
And in Joshua here we find that one man’s hidden sin, that was seen & open only to Christ/God, was the reason for 36 men’s death and because Christ would was not in their midst. And not only that, but we find that Christ/God DOCUMENTED THAT IT WAS THE WHOLE CAMP WHO WERE HELD GUILTY. (compare Rev. 18:4!) And Joshua was guilty as well. He decided that because the army against them was small that ‘his decision’ need not for him to inquire of God as was prior commanded.
Josh.7
[1] But the children of Israel committed a trespass in the accursed thing: for Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took of the accursed thing: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against the children of Israel.
[2] And Joshua sent men from Jericho to Ai, which is beside Beth-aven, on the east side of Bethel, and spake unto them, saying, Go up and view the country. And the men went up and viewed Ai.
[3] And they returned to Joshua, and said unto him, Let not all the people go up; but let about two or three thousand men go up and smite Ai; and make not all the people to labour thither; for they are but few.
[4] So there went up thither of the people about three thousand men: and they fled before the men of Ai.
[5] And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.
[6] And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
[7] And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
[8] O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies!
[9] For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
[10] And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
[11] Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
(OK: take notice for the FACTS of professed Christians here. Who are seen here responsible for death & are again responsible for the second death of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones?)
[12] Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
(again: Is Christ ‘IN’ any fold that teach false doctrine for truth? And who allows for even ‘open’ unrepentant sin to run rampant? Unchecked but known!)
[13] Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
(notice here: Surely the whole family knew what the consequences would be if they were caught! And surely they all knew besides Achan that something was burried in the ‘midst’ of their tent!
But notice that a LOVING CHRIST gave them another day to come forward in repentance. And surely all night long the STRIVING of the Holy Ghost must have been hard to ‘kick against’! As was the pre/flood ones & Acts 9 for Saul Paul to be!)
[14] In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.
(and take note again how even with the known results of verse 15 below of being found out, Christ gave them even more time to come forward. God signaled out the tribe first! Do you not think that all of this families hearts were pounding??)
[15] And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.
[16] So Joshua rose up early in the morning, and brought Israel by their tribes; and the tribe of Judah was taken:
[17] And he brought the family of Judah; and he took the family of the Zarhites: and he brought the family of the Zarhites man by man; and Zabdi was taken:
(we see even more time to repent & come forward! and still no movement.)
[18] And he brought his household man by man; and Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken.
(And we see that the repentance was because of being caught, or that it came to late. And was because of the of the required outcome that was pre/know that would take place.)
[19] And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.
[20] And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:
[21] When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.
[22] So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.
[23] And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.
[24] And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.
[25] And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
(Just ask yourself if you of today are in anyway responsible for the shape of the Matt. 7’s BROADWAY ones, and for that which is openly being taught for truth, or is not being taught at all? And bottom/line is what?? God is at fault or that these have gone the way of Achan & family????)
--Elijah
F
felix
Guest
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
Drew, sin is not a living thing to punish. Scripture does not speak about punishing sin but the sinner accountable for that sin.
You are forgetting Christ became a curse for us.
(Gal 3:13) Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"),
God did not punish Jesus for He is sinless. I did not say that. However, the punishment for sin is death which He took upon Himself.
Drew, sin is not a living thing to punish. Scripture does not speak about punishing sin but the sinner accountable for that sin.
You are forgetting Christ became a curse for us.
(Gal 3:13) Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree"),
God did not punish Jesus for He is sinless. I did not say that. However, the punishment for sin is death which He took upon Himself.
Drew
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
Thanks for reading my material. And I am indeed familiar with this bit about the animal carved in two. I still maintain that the proper theology is one where sin, and not Jesus, is the "target" of God's condemnatory wrath at the cross. I believe that the meaning of the "split animal" can work with this too. Do you think otherwise? Can you give an argument as to how the significance of the "split animal" is inconsistent with what I am asserting?
Drew
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
For <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh
The text says what it says - it is sin that is condemned.
What is your response?
In any event, I believe that Paul does indeed argue that sin has at least some properties that would lead us to properly characterize it as a "living, personal, force".
Remember - the "powers and principalities" were disarmed at the cross.
I suggest that if, as I am saying, Jesus functions as a repository for sin, it makes perfect sense to say he was cursed. It certainly would be a curse to be the "receptacle" that holds sin as sin is violently condemned.
For <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh
The text says what it says - it is sin that is condemned.
What is your response?
In any event, I believe that Paul does indeed argue that sin has at least some properties that would lead us to properly characterize it as a "living, personal, force".
Remember - the "powers and principalities" were disarmed at the cross.
I suggest that if, as I am saying, Jesus functions as a repository for sin, it makes perfect sense to say he was cursed. It certainly would be a curse to be the "receptacle" that holds sin as sin is violently condemned.
There is indeed evidence, as I have already provided that sin itself is condemned on the cross:
For <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh
The text says what it says - it is sin that is condemned.
What is your response?
In any event, I believe that Paul does indeed argue that sin has at least some properties that would lead us to properly characterize it as a "living, personal, force".
Remember - the "powers and principalities" were disarmed at the cross.
I am not forgetting this. This text does not say that Jesus was punished.
I suggest that if, as I am saying, Jesus functions as a repository for sin, it makes perfect sense to say he was cursed. It certainly would be a curse to be the "receptacle" that holds sin as sin is violently condemned.
There is indeed evidence, as I have already provided that sin itself is condemned on the cross:
For <SUP class=crossreference value='(G)'></SUP>what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in <SUP class=crossreference value='(I)'></SUP>the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh
The text says what it says - it is sin that is condemned.
What is your response?
In any event, I believe that Paul does indeed argue that sin has at least some properties that would lead us to properly characterize it as a "living, personal, force".
Remember - the "powers and principalities" were disarmed at the cross.
I am not forgetting this. This text does not say that Jesus was punished.
I suggest that if, as I am saying, Jesus functions as a repository for sin, it makes perfect sense to say he was cursed. It certainly would be a curse to be the "receptacle" that holds sin as sin is violently condemned.
I am not the difference you draw here is real. Can you explain more?
F
felix
Guest
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
God is not punishing Jesus for He is sinless. However, the punishment which was upon us which is death, Christ took upon Himself and allowed to be Smitten by God and died for our sake.
(Isa 53:4-5) Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He [was] wounded for our transgressions, [He was] bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace [was] upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
God is not punishing Jesus for He is sinless. However, the punishment which was upon us which is death, Christ took upon Himself and allowed to be Smitten by God and died for our sake.
(Isa 53:4-5) Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He [was] wounded for our transgressions, [He was] bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace [was] upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.
Brightmorningstar
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
Would it not be easier so say God condemned sin?
The OT ‘genocide’ attributed to God is where disobedient people dying in sin refused to choose God and looked to persecute God’s people or impose their gods on God’s chosen people.
When Christ shall come and judge, will people call the eternal death ‘genocide’?
One is either in Adam or in Christ. In Adam the sin leads to death, in Christ it leads to glory with God.
And so that means God condemns sin, providing Paul is right. But the other Bible writers say God condemned sin.
Would it not be easier so say God condemned sin?
The OT ‘genocide’ attributed to God is where disobedient people dying in sin refused to choose God and looked to persecute God’s people or impose their gods on God’s chosen people.
When Christ shall come and judge, will people call the eternal death ‘genocide’?
One is either in Adam or in Christ. In Adam the sin leads to death, in Christ it leads to glory with God.
Brightmorningstar
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
The Bible warns that wilful practice of immorality, , leads to eternal death. In that ultimate respect it matters little whether someone who is destroyed, is loved or not loved.
The Bible says God's heart is love, that He wishes none perish, despite what WBC claim, those encouraging people to sexual immorality will do the ultimate damage.... I have just listened to the Dean of St Albans do just that whilst we all argue.
The Bible warns that wilful practice of immorality, , leads to eternal death. In that ultimate respect it matters little whether someone who is destroyed, is loved or not loved.
The Bible says God's heart is love, that He wishes none perish, despite what WBC claim, those encouraging people to sexual immorality will do the ultimate damage.... I have just listened to the Dean of St Albans do just that whilst we all argue.
Last edited by a moderator:
Drew
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
I would agree with this text (of course). But the text does not require that we, in any sense, believe Jesus was being punished (and I am not suggesting that you are stating otherwise).
Brightmorningstar
Member
How can God love the sinner when He gave His only Son so that they could be dead to sin?
oxymoron.
God loves those rescued from sin, and wishes that none perish but all come to repentance.
oxymoron.
God loves those rescued from sin, and wishes that none perish but all come to repentance.
F
felix
Guest
The verse itself say it doesnt save all.
You missed the the next 2 verses too.
v18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Navigator
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
I'm actually not familiar with your assertion regarding the "split animal." Please further explain your take on that...
My comment was not meant to emphasize THAT part of the event, but rather that God went through the animal(s) twice. By doing this he was saying to Abraham: "If I mess up, you can kill me (which won't happen), but also if YOU mess up, you can kill me." And that is exactly what happened with Jesus. Understand?
I completely agree that sin was the target of God's wrath, but he needed a vessel in the form of a spotless lamb (Jesus) to eternally put it to rest.
I'm actually not familiar with your assertion regarding the "split animal." Please further explain your take on that...
My comment was not meant to emphasize THAT part of the event, but rather that God went through the animal(s) twice. By doing this he was saying to Abraham: "If I mess up, you can kill me (which won't happen), but also if YOU mess up, you can kill me." And that is exactly what happened with Jesus. Understand?
I completely agree that sin was the target of God's wrath, but he needed a vessel in the form of a spotless lamb (Jesus) to eternally put it to rest.
Brightmorningstar
Member
Felix is correct. God so loved the world enough to make the way for its salvation.
Drew
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
I think I have it. And I think you will agree that this image does not necessarily ential that God is saying "I have to punished".
Cool. Do you agree that most Christians do not see the atonement this way - they think in terms of God "punishing" Jesus.
Drew
Member
Re: Westboro Baptist Church Music Video
Its just my way of expressing the same idea you expressed about what happens if either party breaks the covenant.