Does God love those condemned to hell?

[stovebolts]

Hell will be full of people that God loves... :toofunny:toofunny:toofunny

You have failed to present any scripture that states otherwise. I don't find that a bit funny personally.

God's love covers and trasends the sins of the elect, not that every last Israelite meets that standard your assumption is correct to a point. See above

To what point? What delineates that point?

It's funny the conversation is moving in that direction. You know, Jesus spoke most harshly to those who thought they were "in" and looked at those that were "out" in a condescending manner. Funny how those who thought they were in were really out, and those they thought were out were really in....

Good luck with that Hitch. I'm thinking we're about done here. enjoy your day!

 

[Hitch]

edit

 

[Hitch]

You have failed to present any scripture that states otherwise. I don't find that a bit funny personally.

Actually Stove you can find many passages detailing how God feels about and treats the wicked in contrast to how he feels about and treats the righteous.

But I can play your game just fine; You have failed to present any scripture that states

Hell will be full of people that God loves...

One of the more laughable points Ive ever seen raised .

To what point? What delineates that point?

Arre you're asking who makes up the 'elect' ? Assuming that is your question , I have no idea.

It's funny the conversation is moving in that direction. You know, Jesus spoke most harshly to those who thought they were "in" and looked at those that were "out" in a condescending manner. Funny how those who thought they were in were really out, and those they thought were out were really in....

Good luck with that Hitch. I'm thinking we're about done here. enjoy your day!

Then I'll leave you with this challenge;

I think the moral is this Hitch. As believers, we need to be very careful what we teach... Indeed, perhaps you should start a thread and support your assertion ;Hell will be full of people that God loves...

 

[Davies]

Because I saw love flowing here to this thread, I was attracted to post a couple of thoughts.

I have to agree with Hitch in that those who remain condemned and are thrown into the lake of fire are not loved by God, but I wouldn't say that God never loved them. We can use Israel as an example.

21 But to Israel he says:

“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.â€[n]

Now, if that's not an act of love for those who are lost, then you must have a different definition of the lost. To reduce God's love to only His children, what glory is there in that? Jesus teaches us to love our enemies. He didn't say only love the enemies who will repent, but:

Matthew 5:43-48
New King James Version (NKJV)
Love Your Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren[c] only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors[d] do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

I think Matthew 5 clearly shows that God teaches us to love our enemies just as He does, so that we may be sons of our Father in heaven.

- Davies

 

[stovebolts]

Hitch,

I based my assertion on the parable of the Prodigal son. If we look at the parable as a story with intent, we see that within the framework of this parable the older brother takes on the role of Israel while the younger brother takes on the role of the gentiles.

Israel was considered God's Elect and was charged with the task of being a light to all the nations. This is why Jesus told the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and then the prodigal son to the Pharisees.


Isaiah 49:6b I will make you as a light for the nations,that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

But that is not what Israel had become. They did not honor the covenant. I would hope you understand the story of Israel well enough to follow, but I get a feeling you don't.

What we see with the story of the prodigal son, is that God loves his children, and he rejoices when they return. Not only that, but we are reminded of what our task should be and that we should let our light shine (Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.)

When you say that God rejoices while people burn in hell is not only cruel and thoughtless, but it is also unbiblical.

Back to your arguments.

I asked:

Does God rejoice in the death of the wicked Hitch?

You incorrectly replied: (I noticed you edited that and it now shows Rev 19)

Psalms 5:4-6 (ASV) "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: Evil shall not sojourn with thee. The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity. Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth the blood-thirsty and deceitful man."

I replied:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

You replied:

Note the locus, O house of Israel. Perhaps you can explain just why vengeance is so important to God he pointedly claims it as his particular province?

Yes Hitch, we're back to the older brother now... Listen to the older brother: But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might ecelebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, fwho has devoured gyour property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’

What a wicked younger brother you have Hitch... And you say God doesn't love him? BTW, did you know that the older son dishonors the Father by refusing to come to the banquet?

John 3:16, For God so love the World, that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believe scripture is very clear. 1 Timothy 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

It is not the will of the father that any should perish, yet many will.

 

[Hitch]

Hitch,

I based my assertion on the parable of the Prodigal son. If we look at the parable as a story with intent, we see that within the framework of this parable the older brother takes on the role of Israel while the younger brother takes on the role of the gentiles.

Israel was considered God's Elect and was charged with the task of being a light to all the nations. This is why Jesus told the parables of the lost sheep, the lost coin and then the prodigal son to the Pharisees.


Isaiah 49:6b I will make you as a light for the nations,that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

But that is not what Israel had become. They did not honor the covenant. I would hope you understand the story of Israel well enough to follow, but I get a feeling you don't.

Of course I dont Stove, anyone who doesnt fully and whole heartedly agree with you on every detail is probably a cultist. Hey I enjoyed your smear, it said a lot about you Stove.

What we see with the story of the prodigal son, is that God loves his children, and he rejoices when they return. Not only that, but we are reminded of what our task should be and that we should let our light shine (Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.)

When you say that God rejoices while people burn in hell is not only cruel and thoughtless, but it is also unbiblical.

I suggest you review the OP [quote ]

Back to your arguments.

I asked:

You incorrectly replied: (I noticed you edited that and it now shows Rev 19)


I replied:


You replied:


Yes Hitch, we're back to the older brother now... Listen to the older brother: But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might ecelebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, fwho has devoured gyour property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’

What a wicked younger brother you have Hitch... And you say God doesn't love him? [/quote] Where?

BTW, did you know that the older son dishonors the Father by refusing to come to the banquet?

LOL You're tripping over your condescension Stove. Had you been reading rather than judging you might have noticed what I actually posted.

John 3:16, For God so love the World, that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Exactly, God loved his elect ,while they were dead in sin, and sent Jesus to make the only sacrfice that would allow them reconciliation, and eternal life.

I believe scripture is very clear. 1 Timothy 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

It is not the will of the father that any should perish, yet many will.

Wow Do you believe your commentary the equal of Scripture Stove?

 

[felix]

Felix,

Just so you know what I'm arguing against, I've posted in bold.

Now then.... about the parable.
You have missed the intent of the parable. Who is the younger brother?
Would the father love the younger son any less had he not repented?
Stop acting like a big brother ;)

God's nature does not change... Or do you not understand the bitter waters of Marah (Exodus 15). There is no rejoicing over the death of anyone, even Pharaoh.

I agree with you on the intent of the parable of prodigal son.

However, this parable does not apply to what was posted in #3 for rebellious son. The prodigal son "asking for his share" is not a sin. Neither did the father went against his will and chasten him.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't think God loves those in Hell. Hell exists as an expression of God's holy justice, which demands that unrepentant sinners be dealt with severely. Sins against a perfect, holy, just God demand severe punishment. I've often heard it said that its more a question of why God chooses to save some erstwhile sinners from destruction, rather than why God leaves some unrepentant sinners on the path to Hell.

"Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience" (Eph. 5:6).

--My take on this? God is inclined to holy rage+wrath towards those who aren't part of the Elect.

"Thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5)

--Hatred. Not a much accepted emotion in modern times, but apparently one our God feels towards unrepentant sinners.

"God is angry with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11)

--Not the strongest verse to support God's contempt for unrepentant sinners, but it does indicate that God's anger extends to the sinner himself, not just the sinful acts.

 

[Hitch]

Then I'll leave you with this challenge;

I think the moral is this Hitch. As believers, we need to be very careful what we teach... Indeed, perhaps you should start a thread and support your assertion ;Hell will be full of people that God loves...

Come on Stove, if this is important enough for you to insinuate cultsm on my part it certainly important enough for it own thread.

 

[stovebolts]

I agree with you on the intent of the parable of prodigal son.

However, this parable does not apply to what was posted in #3 for rebellious son. The prodigal son "asking for his share" is not a sin. Neither did the father went against his will and chasten him.

Hi Felix,

Jethro wrote:

But like any earth bound Father, God can't pour his manifest love out on a son or daughter that chooses to live outside of their Father's favor because of rebellion and distance from him. Any father of a rebellious teenager knows you can't give your love to an obstinate wayward son or daughter...but that hardly means you don't love them.

You said you disagreed.

Based on the language Jethro used (son or daughter), I believe the parable fit nicely. But just to be sure, God calls Sodom and all of her daughters Israels Sisters... Ezekiel 16:55 And thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate; and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; and thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Ezekiel 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

The prodigal son "asking for his share" is not a sin. Neither did the father went against his will and chasten him.

If you study the culture, you will find that there were specific laws in place that allowed a son to receive his inheritance early. But know this, it was dishonorable to the Father as it clearly said, "I wish you were dead, give me what is rightfully mine now". A clear violation of the commandment to honor your Mother and Father (Exodus 20:12) not to mention selfish.

 

[stovebolts]

Then I'll leave you with this challenge;

I think the moral is this Hitch. As believers, we need to be very careful what we teach... Indeed, perhaps you should start a thread and support your assertion ;Hell will be full of people that God loves...

Come on Stove, if this is important enough for you to insinuate cultsm on my part it certainly important enough for it own thread.

Show me where I err in this thread Hitch...

 

[Hitch]

I agree with you on the intent of the parable of prodigal son.

However, this parable does not apply to what was posted in #3 for rebellious son. The prodigal son "asking for his share" is not a sin. Neither did the father went against his will and chasten him.

I dont see any connection to the OP wrt that passage.

 

[Hitch]

Show me where I err in this thread Hitch...

Already have.

'Hell will be full of people that God loves...'

I dont blame you Stove, no one wants to defend nonsense like that.

To the contrary I have asserted that Heaven will be full of people God loves.


8And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28146">29</sup>For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28147">30</sup>Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28148">31</sup>What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28149">32</sup>He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28150">33</sup>Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28151">34</sup>Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28152">35</sup>Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28153">36</sup>As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28154">37</sup>Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28155">38</sup>For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-28156">39</sup>Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[stovebolts]

--My take on this? God is inclined to holy rage+wrath towards those who aren't part of the Elect.

Romans 2:1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.

Romans 2:5-6 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works:

 

[stovebolts]

Already have.

'Hell will be full of people that God loves...'

I dont blame you Stove, no one wants to defend nonsense like that.

To the contrary I have asserted that Heaven will be full of people God loves.

If you won't engage in scripture, you'll not bait me with sarcasm.

 

[Hitch]

If you won't engage in scripture, you'll not bait me with sarcasm.

:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny What makes this so funny is your insinuation ;


The line of thinking that you are going down Hitch leads to some pretty scarey theology. Serpent Seed theology comes to mind,


You gave up any right to complain.

 

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Christ_empowered
--My take on this? God is inclined to holy rage+wrath towards those who aren't part of the Elect.

Romans 2:1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.

Romans 2:5-6 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works:

Can some one explain how this connects to the OP or CE's response, I cant see it.?

 

[felix]

Hi Felix,

Jethro wrote:


You said you disagreed.

Based on the language Jethro used (son or daughter), I believe the parable fit nicely. But just to be sure, God calls Sodom and all of her daughters Israels Sisters... Ezekiel 16:55 And thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate; and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate; and thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Ezekiel 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,



If you study the culture, you will find that there were specific laws in place that allowed a son to receive his inheritance early. But know this, it was dishonorable to the Father as it clearly said, "I wish you were dead, give me what is rightfully mine now". A clear violation of the commandment to honor your Mother and Father (Exodus 20:12) not to mention selfish.

In Eze 16, God was describing Israel as His bride/wife (not son). Also, mentioning Sodom as sister is said in disgrace not something to be proud of.

I believe culture or tradition does not define a sin. Also, inheritance is not always after death of father/parents. Abraham gave inheritance before his death. I don't think it is right to assume asking for inheritance is a violation of Exodus 20:12.

 

[felix]

I dont see any connection to the OP wrt that passage.

Refer #3.

 

[stovebolts]

In Eze 16, God was describing Israel as His bride/wife (not son). Also, mentioning Sodom as sister is said in disgrace not something to be proud of.

And your point is? Are you saying that if God calls Israel his son, he cannot also call Israel his wife and can his wife not have sisters? In the same way, if God calls Israel his son, can his son not have brothers?

The Parable of the Prodigal son clearly depicts Israel as the older son, and the gentiles as the younger son. Is Israel now to have no brothers?

I believe culture or tradition does not define a sin. Also, inheritance is not always after death of father/parents. Abraham gave inheritance before his death. I don't think it is right to assume asking for inheritance is a violation of Exodus 20:12.

I would encourage you to pick up a very well written book by Kline R. Snodgrass. It is named: Stories With Intent: A Comprehensive Guide to the Parables of Jesus

It is very academic in nature and is as close to exhaustive as you can get in the matter.

Snodgrass clearly outlines the culture from written documents both Jewish and Greek on this very matter. If you have the desire to learn, then this book is for you and you will see that what you write above is not in line with the laws or the culture of the day. In fact, you will see by written Jewish documents that it was considered a sin. Snodgrass leaves no stone uncovered. Check it out for yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0802842410/ref=rdr_ext_tmb