Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Does Infant Baptism Save An Individual?

Are individuals saved by infant baptism? Why or Why not?

  • Yes, infants are saved when they are baptized because ...

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Being buried in baptism saves no one. Yet, any Mature Born Again person (Hebrews 6:1-5) would do nothing other than to openly display to the world that they have accepted Christ and are now going to follow ALL of His requirements! And not just baptism. :fadein:

And yes, surely, some do the best that they have knowledge of, or opportunity to do. Philippians 4:13 (such as the thief on the cross)
And the 'very few' ones seen in ignorance as in Revelation 18:4, and John 10:16.

---John
 
Solo said:
Except a man be born of water (birth of the flesh), and born of the Spirit (born again of the Spirit), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. It does not get any plainer than that.

Wrong. Unless a man be born of water and the Spirit (born through Baptism of the Spirit) he cannot enter the Kingdom. That born of the flesh ALONE cannot enter the Kingdom because he has not had a spiritual rebirth yet. How does this happen? Through water and the spirit: One is born spiritually through the sacrament of Baptism.

To prove the point, again, I ask you to tell me WHY EXACTLY Jesus would find the need to include "born of water" to mean something DIFFERENT then being born of the Spirit? It is utterly ridiculous to think that Jesus had to say one must be born of water - meaning the natural birth that ALL men undergo!!! Next, you'll be saying that unless a man breath air, he cannot have eternal life... The flesh is flesh! He isn't talking about fleshy birth... Christ is SPECIFICALLY CORRECTING Nicodemus by telling him that natural child birth is NOT what is on His mind...

Regards
 
reply

Fran, Why don't you Catholic's just trust in the Blood of the Lamb? Throw away all that merky religious stuff.



May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Fran, Why don't you Catholic's just trust in the Blood of the Lamb? Throw away all that merky religious stuff.

That "murky religious stuff" enables me to communicate and have a relationship with the Lamb. It is through those "murky religious" things that I meet Christ outside of myself. I presume you are aware that the Bible is one of those "murky religious" things?

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Wrong. Unless a man be born of water and the Spirit (born through Baptism of the Spirit) he cannot enter the Kingdom. That born of the flesh ALONE cannot enter the Kingdom because he has not had a spiritual rebirth yet. How does this happen? Through water and the spirit: One is born spiritually through the sacrament of Baptism.

Francis
Am I missing something here? Are you indeed saying that physical actual water is required for salvation? I thought we had this talk already?


To prove the point, again, I ask you to tell me WHY EXACTLY Jesus would find the need to include "born of water" to mean something DIFFERENT then being born of the Spirit? It is utterly ridiculous to think that Jesus had to say one must be born of water - meaning the natural birth that ALL men undergo!!! Next, you'll be saying that unless a man breath air, he cannot have eternal life... The flesh is flesh! He isn't talking about fleshy birth... Christ is SPECIFICALLY CORRECTING Nicodemus by telling him that natural child birth is NOT what is on His mind...

Regards

Many insist that literal water is intended in John 3:5, and that the Lord Jesus spoke of the necessity of baptism for salvation. However, such a teaching is contrary to the rest of the Bible. Throughout the Word of God we read that salvation is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone. Baptism is intended for those who have already been saved, but not as a means of salvation.
May I suggest that water in this verse refers to the Word of God. In Ephesians 5:25, 26 water is closely associated with the Word of God. Also, in 1 Peter 1:23 and James 1:18, the new birth is said to take place through the Word of God. It is quite possible, therefore, that water in this verse does refer to the Bible. This is the view that I hold to, although there is another popular view.

The other view is that the water refers to the holy spirit, but then we get into a hermenutics problem that interpretaion as we move into John Chapter 7
None the less regardless of what view is taken, none of the two common views refer to ''water baptism''






 
francisdesales said:
Wrong. Unless a man be born of water and the Spirit (born through Baptism of the Spirit) he cannot enter the Kingdom. That born of the flesh ALONE cannot enter the Kingdom because he has not had a spiritual rebirth yet. How does this happen? Through water and the spirit: One is born spiritually through the sacrament of Baptism.

To prove the point, again, I ask you to tell me WHY EXACTLY Jesus would find the need to include "born of water" to mean something DIFFERENT then being born of the Spirit? It is utterly ridiculous to think that Jesus had to say one must be born of water - meaning the natural birth that ALL men undergo!!! Next, you'll be saying that unless a man breath air, he cannot have eternal life... The flesh is flesh! He isn't talking about fleshy birth... Christ is SPECIFICALLY CORRECTING Nicodemus by telling him that natural child birth is NOT what is on His mind...

Regards
Jesus was signifying the two births, the natural birth of the flesh, and the spiritual birth of the Spirit. Nicodemus was confused and he asked Jesus how a man was to re-enter his mother's womb to be born again. Jesus answered in detail describing the physical birth as being born of water, and that in order to enter the Kingdom of God, one must also be born of the Spirit.

Every human-being born is born through child birth after floating in water for the duration of their development in the womb of their mother. One asks what is meant by the statement that Jesus makes, "Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God".

What is born of water? Jesus explains it in verse 6. That which is born of flesh is flesh. Pretty simple, huh?! Jesus explains it pretty good, but Nicodemus did not know even though he was one of the top religious leaders of his time.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8

Anyone who teaches other doctrine than the truth that Jesus teaches is a false teacher.
 
Solo said:
Jesus was signifying the two births, the natural birth of the flesh, and the spiritual birth of the Spirit.

Wrong. Jesus didn't say anything about natural birth. He corrected Nicodemus when he thought that is what was meant. Water baptism was a common ritual back then. Jesus HIMSELF was baptized in water by John. But now, with the Holy Spirit who would be made available after Pentecost, a better Baptism would soon bring forth the Spirit and a rebirth in the spiritual world.

All this talk about Jesus talking about natural birth is nonsense. Why would anyone say, "you must be born naturally"? What sort of statement is that? That is about the most unnecessary and redundant thing ever. And Jesus corrects such an idea about crawling back into the womb - since He isn't talking about natural birth. What is flesh is flesh - and Jesus is not talking about fleshy birth AT ALL.

Solo said:
Anyone who teaches other doctrine than the truth that Jesus teaches is a false teacher.

No doubt. Your doctrine is false AND lacks any common sense. It boggles the mind that you would think that Christ would be talking about being born from the flesh when He specifically corrects that....

Being born of water? Nonsense. Ever witness a live birth? "Being born of water" certainly doesn't describe a live birth! :tongue The lengths someone will go through to try to make their preconceived notions fit into Scriptures...

Regards
 
Solo said:
Jesus was signifying the two births, the natural birth of the flesh, and the spiritual birth of the Spirit.

Wrong. Jesus didn't say anything about natural birth. He corrected Nicodemus when he thought that is what was meant. Water baptism was a common ritual back then. Jesus HIMSELF was baptized in water by John. But now, with the Holy Spirit who would be made available after Pentecost, a better Baptism would soon bring forth the Spirit and a rebirth in the spiritual world.

All this talk about Jesus talking about natural birth is nonsense. Why would anyone say, "you must be born naturally"? What sort of statement is that? That is about the most unnecessary and redundant thing ever. And Jesus corrects such an idea about crawling back into the womb - since He isn't talking about natural birth. What is flesh is flesh - and Jesus is not talking about fleshy birth AT ALL.

Solo said:
Anyone who teaches other doctrine than the truth that Jesus teaches is a false teacher.

No doubt. Your doctrine is false AND lacks any common sense. It boggles the mind that you would think that Christ would be talking about being born from the flesh when He specifically corrects that....

Being born of water? Nonsense. Ever witness a live birth? "Being born of water" certainly doesn't describe a live birth! :tongue The lengths someone will go through to try to make their preconceived notions fit into Scriptures...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
No doubt. Your doctrine is false AND lacks any common sense. It boggles the mind that you would think that Christ would be talking about being born from the flesh when He specifically corrects that....

Being born of water? Nonsense. Ever witness a live birth? "Being born of water" certainly doesn't describe a live birth! :tongue The lengths someone will go through to try to make their preconceived notions fit into Scriptures...

Regards
Argue with Jesus with your ridiculous Roman Catholic false teaching. All believers know what he is talking about, and it is obvious that you do not.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:5-8
 
Solo said:
Argue with Jesus with your ridiculous Roman Catholic false teaching. All believers know what he is talking about, and it is obvious that you do not.

Sorry, but you are wrong. If you don't believe me, consult the writings of the first Christians, who UNANIMOUSLY believed in baptismal regeneration. It is only people such as yourself who try to twist common sense into some contortion so that they can split from God's Church...

Being "born of water" refers to natural birth!!! I am still scratching my head on how someone invented that one... A natural birth WOULDN'T be refered to as being "born of water", but born of a woman, or born from flesh, or born from blood, even... But born of water? How ridiculous.
 
francisdesales said:
Sorry, but you are wrong. If you don't believe me, consult the writings of the first Christians, who UNANIMOUSLY believed in baptismal regeneration. It is only people such as yourself who try to twist common sense into some contortion so that they can split from God's Church...

Being "born of water" refers to natural birth!!! I am still scratching my head on how someone invented that one... A natural birth WOULDN'T be refered to as being "born of water", but born of a woman, or born from flesh, or born from blood, even... But born of water? How ridiculous.
Read Jesus words very carefully. We will quote verse 5 first followed in context by verse 6.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

It is elementary English when communicating a subject, to make the strong topic sentence in a paragraph first, followed by the detailed description of the topic. Jesus follows the point of being born of water and of the Spirit with the explanation that the flesh is flesh born of water, and Spirit is Spirit born of the Spirit.

Jesus is speaking of being born of the water and born of the Spirit in verse 5, and he defines what he means by describing being born of the flesh is flesh and being born of the Spirit is Spirit. When Jesus defines the act of being born of the flesh and being born of the Spirit, he does not mention water as being all important. He is explaining the physical birth and the Spiritual rebirth. Simple.

.
 
jgredline said:


Francis
Am I missing something here? Are you indeed saying that physical actual water is required for salvation? I thought we had this talk already?





Many insist that literal water is intended in John 3:5, and that the Lord Jesus spoke of the necessity of baptism for salvation. However, such a teaching is contrary to the rest of the Bible. Throughout the Word of God we read that salvation is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ alone. Baptism is intended for those who have already been saved, but not as a means of salvation.
May I suggest that water in this verse refers to the Word of God. In Ephesians 5:25, 26 water is closely associated with the Word of God. Also, in 1 Peter 1:23 and James 1:18, the new birth is said to take place through the Word of God. It is quite possible, therefore, that water in this verse does refer to the Bible. This is the view that I hold to, although there is another popular view.

The other view is that the water refers to the holy spirit, but then we get into a hermenutics problem that interpretaion as we move into John Chapter 7
None the less regardless of what view is taken, none of the two common views refer to ''water baptism''






 
Solo said:
Read Jesus words very carefully. We will quote verse 5 first followed in context by verse 6.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Water AND Spirit are refering to the same event. This is the belief of Christianity for 2000 years - one that even many Protestants share.


Other parts of Scripture verify this. How about checking John 13:8?

"Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me."


The Greek word for "wash" is the same as that used in the following:

"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water" Heb 10:22

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor 6:11

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." Eph 5:25-27

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Ti 3:5

Regarding Baptism, we have the evidence of Scripture that Israel would refuse to accept the washing which confers the remission of sins and would set up a substitution of her own instead" Epistle of Barnabas, c. 150 AD

I have heard sir' and I, 'from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins'. He said to me, 'You have heard rightly, for it is so" Hermas c. 150 AD

Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armour; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; you patient endurance, your panoply" Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to Polycarp, c. 110 AD

Moveover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would be at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God" Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, 181 AD.

I can understand your confusion, trying to make "Born of Water" and "Born of the Spirit" as two different things, IF that was the only thing you read in the Bilbe. Howver, Jesus corrects this idea in that Nicodemus has, saying flesh is flesh - meaning "I am not talking about fleshy birth at all". The witness of Scriptures and the first 150 years of Christianity show that Baptism is given for the remission of sin. You are clearly in the minority on this issue, against Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Acts 2:38

And finally, it makes no sense that Jesus says we have to be born into existence before we can be saved! I would then ask you why anyone would need to even say such a thing! Sorry, you are incorrect in your interpretations.

Regards
 
jgredline said:
Francis
Am I missing something here? Are you indeed saying that physical actual water is required for salvation? I thought we had this talk already?

First, God is not bound by the Sacraments. The Church doesn't teach that a person ABSOLUTELY MUST be baptized, as a person who WOULD HAVE desired baptism had they known about it is baptized by desire. Thus, the Spirit blows where He wills, even among the Incan Indians of 1200 AD.

Secondly, it is not the water ITSELF that saves, but God working THROUGH the water. Check my last post to Solo for the various NT Scriptures and some Church Father quotes. Also, consider the following, that foreshadowed the sacrament of Baptism:

"But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and strike his hand over the place, and recover the leper. [Are] not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, [if] the prophet had bid thee [do some] great thing, wouldest thou not have done [it]? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that [there is] no God in all the earth, but in Israel now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant." 2 Kings 5:11-15

Naaman knew that the water itself did not save, but God saved through the instrument of His holy man and the water - just as in the sacrament of Baptism.

jgredline said:
May I suggest that water in this verse refers to the Word of God. In Ephesians 5:25, 26 water is closely associated with the Word of God.

I quoted that very verse to Solo. It doesn't say "The Word of God", but the refers to the words spoken during the Baptism ritual - as related by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:20 - "Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". Even today, we continue to use the same words when baptizing.

jgredline said:
the new birth is said to take place through the Word of God.

It does - through Jesus Christ, THE Word of God, and His Spirit, not the Sacred Scripture. But water is the instrument through which God works.

jgredline said:
The other view is that the water refers to the holy spirit

Water has been used as a symbol of God's Spirit in the Old Testament. God's Spirit hovered above the waters in the FIRST Creation, and He is also active, hovering above the waters in the SECOND Creation, where we are born again in Christ.

Regards
 
Baptism doesn't save anyone. "For by grace are ye saved through faith". Eph. 2:8. Neither baptism or works will justify anyone. Babies are too young to be held accountable. We do not serve or worship an unjust God. This holds true for those born mentally deficient and unable to understand; they are still like innocent babies.

Jesus provided a way for all of us to be justified in God's eyes through his sacrifice. We are told that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" in Isaiah 64:6. The best that we're capable of doing isn't good enough. We can only be justified through Christ. Otherwise we would have people in heaven boasting about how they got there because of what they did. We will be there only because of what Jesus did if we have accepted Him as our Saviour.
 
Jon-Marc said:
Baptism doesn't save anyone.

Then why does the Word of God say it does?

"Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water. Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:20-21

Notice Peter's analogy, comparing the salvation of Noah, being saved by water, just as in 'like form', now saves you...

Clearly, Baptism is a visible sign of invisible graces given by God. Thus, baptism is for the remission of sins.

Regards
 
Jon-marc
Do not fall for this. ''Water baptism'' is not required for salvation in any way shape or form... When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and saviour, we are baptized in Christ as the scriptures teach. This is why ''water baptism'' does not save an infant or anybody. If ''water baptism'' saves, then this becomes works.
Because many Catholics believe that they ae saved by works ''water baptism'', they will hear the words, ''I never knew you''

If your confused at this point, go back and read both Solo'S post and mine.
 
JG, don't worry about me falling for falsehoods. Why would you think I am confused? I've been a child of God for 43 years and have been to Bible college. I've done extensive reading and studying of God's word. While I know nothing about Greek, Hebrew or any other language, I KNOW the truth.

1 Tim. 3:20 says nothing about Noah and his family being saved from their sins by water. They were PHYSICALLY saved from death by being carried above the water in the Ark. Verse 21 specifically says that we are NOT saved from our sins by water, but that obediently following the Lord in water baptism gives us a clear conscience toward God in the knowledge that we have chosen to follow Him. Baptism does not save us; it is symbolic of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes onto the Father but by Him. Buried in the likeness of His death. Raised to the newness of life!

Jesus did all that was necessary for our redemption on the cross. When He said "It is finished", He meant that the redemptive work for our salvation was DONE! Nothing more was or is needed. Jesus did it all! I thank God that it isn't left up to me to redeem myself, because I couldn't do it. There is NO hope outside of Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Second Person of the Godhead. God is a Triune God, the GREAT Three in One!
 
Man, in his arrogance and pride, continually thinks that an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God needs the help of sinful creatures to accomplish something that He can't do without our help. We are helpless and eternally lost in our sins without Jesus Christ. As the second person of the Godhead and being omnipotent He doesn't need our feeble efforts to help. It's much like the 2-year-old who says, "I can do it myself!" We CANNOT do it ourselves. We can't even help Him do it, and He doesn't need our help.
 
Jon-Marc said:
JG, don't worry about me falling for falsehoods. Why would you think I am confused? I've been a child of God for 43 years and have been to Bible college. I've done extensive reading and studying of God's word. While I know nothing about Greek, Hebrew or any other language, I KNOW the truth.

Jon
Thats great to hear.
As I get to know you better, things become more clear.
Thank you so much for joining this forum and hope will become a regular member of our family here.
Javier
 

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Back
Top