Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

It is called the doctrine which is according to Godliness in the bible, (1 Tim 6:3), and when seen all together shows that perfect obedience to God is not only possible, but God ordained.

Virtually all false doctrine accommodates sin.
Something the doctrine which is according to Godiness doesn't do.
Your "progression" starts with perfection, as nothing reborn of God's seed is imperfect.

Go ahead, continue to ignore the plain words of 2 Peter 1:8-10. How are you able to just ignore them?????

You have to consider the WHOLE counsel of scripture when forming doctrine. You can't just leave out 2 Peter 1:8-10 and other scriptures and decide believers start out in complete and utter perfection the moment they believe and are saved. Yes, 'saved'. The scriptures are also very clear about being saved NOW, in this life, not just saved from the wrath of God at the return of Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Read the 2 Peter 1:8-10 passage I posted and tell me it doesn't say PROGRESSION in the traits of the Spirit assures one of their calling and election.

I fail to see where "progression" is assured?
In fact, it says..."If you do these things...", so progression is not assured at all.

 

[Hopeful]

Go ahead, continue to ignore the plain words of 2 Peter 1:8-10. How are you able to just ignore them?????

You have to consider the WHOLE counsel of scripture when forming doctrine. You can't just leave out 2 Peter 1:8-10 and other scriptures and decide believers start out in complete and utter perfection the moment they believe and are saved. Yes, 'saved'. The scriptures are also very clear about being saved NOW, in this life, not just saved from the wrath of God at the return of Christ.

I will not usurp God's judgement.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I fail to see where "progression" is assured?
In fact, it says..."If you do these things...", so progression is not assured at all.

You're not hearing it right.

The progression is not what Peter is saying is assured. He says your progression assures you that you are called and elected. IOW, your progression in the traits of the Spirit that he lists assures you that you are saved and will receive a grand entry into the kingdom of God.

Read it!

8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:8-10

Don't ignore this! His words are very plain.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I will not usurp God's judgement.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

You are NOT usurping God's God's judgment. The Bible itself, even Jesus himself, says that the believing person has passed from death to life and has eternal life and will not come into judgment.

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

The whole counsel of scripture shows us that we will remain in this salvation as long as the word remains in us in believing (1 John 2:24-25, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

Just because a person can potentially stop believing and not be saved anymore doesn't mean you can't be saved now while you are believing. Unless, of course, you have defined 'salvation' ahead of time as 'permanent and unchangeable', as I think you have. That will color your reading of scripture and cause you to miss the passages that talk about being saved right now as the result of believing right now, and potentially not being saved in the future because of not believing in the future.

 

[donadams]

I don't know about suffering with Christ "daily' but at least prepared to suffer with Him daily.
Would you see it as sin if you went a day or two without "suffering with Christ"?

We are called to suffer so should be willing,
Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Should be daily?
Prayer, practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ, fasting, alms are forms of penance too
Thanks

 

[donadams]

If one continues to commit sin after allegedly killing the old man, (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24), one never repented of sin to begin with.
It would show one was still a child of the devil. (1 John 3:10)
It would also show one was not walking in God, the light of 1 John 1:5, 7.

We must still struggle against sin until we are glorified with christ

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

t

 

[Hopeful]

You're not hearing it right.

The progression is not what Peter is saying is assured. He says your progression assures you that you are called and elected. IOW, your progression in the traits of the Spirit that he lists assures you that you are saved and will receive a grand entry into the kingdom of God.

Read it!

8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:8-10

Don't ignore this! His words are very plain.

Sounds good, for this week.
But next week?
If I go back into drunken revelry and theft, my salvation WILL BE nonexistent.
If salvation was assured, what is the point of progressing?
My salvation is dependent on my progressing.
If it is dependent on anything, it cannot be assured.

 

[donadams]

I did that already.

You aren't MADE a saved person at the resurrection. It's because you are ALREADY a saved person (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) that you are then saved through the fires of judgment at the resurrection. Notice that prior to Jesus passing judgment on all people, they are ALREADY sheep and goats - Matthew 25:31-46. He doesn't make them sheep at the final judgement. They're already his sheep and saved and have eternal life in this life. John 5:24 is very clear about this. You can't just decide you're going to ignore that very plain verse. The Catholic church is WRONG about this.

Not saved just cos we are in Christ with grace and have eternal life.
Thanks

 

[donadams]

NONE!
You have nothing to contribute towards having the righteousness of God. It can only be given to a person as a free gift through the forgiveness of their sin received by faith, not the merit of their work.

Then all men are saved?
Thanks
Really want to know, not just taunting you

 

[Hopeful]

You are NOT usurping God's God's judgment. The Bible itself, even Jesus himself, says that the believing person has passed from death to life and has eternal life and will not come into judgment.

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

The whole counsel of scripture shows us that we will remain in this salvation as long as the word remains in us in believing (1 John 2:24-25, 1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

Just because a person can potentially stop believing and not be saved anymore doesn't mean you can't be saved now while you are believing. Unless, of course, you have defined 'salvation' ahead of time as 'permanent and unchangeable', as I think you have. That will color your reading of scripture and cause you to miss the passages that talk about being saved right now as the result of believing right now, and potentially not being saved in the future because of not believing in the future.

As long as there are "IFs and "AS LONG ASs" attached to our salvation, it cannot be assured.
If I die right now, I feel I will be saved, on the last day of judgement.
But tomorrow is anybody's guess.

BTW, isn't it you who has defined salvation as "permanent and unchangeable"?

 

[Hopeful]

We are called to suffer so should be willing,
Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Should be daily?

I took up the cross I was killed on many years ago. (Gal 5:24)
I have no need to carry it further.
Jesus is also written of saying to carry it daily, but His audience were OT Jews.
None of them had yet partaken in/of the death and resurrection of the Lord.

Prayer, practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ, fasting, alms are forms of penance too

My sins have already been washed away by the blood of Christ
The wages of my sin was death, (Rom 6:23), and that death has already passed.
Godly behavior is my new, divine nature; not penance.

 

[Hopeful]

We must still struggle against sin until we are glorified with christ

What the converted "struggle with" is temptation, not with sin.
Sin would show a lack of conversion.

 

[donadams]

I took up the cross I was killed on many years ago. (Gal 5:24)
I have no need to carry it further.
Jesus is also written of saying to carry it daily, but His audience were OT Jews.
None of them had yet partaken in/of the death and resurrection of the Lord.

My sins have already been washed away by the blood of Christ
The wages of my sin was death, (Rom 6:23), and that death has already passed.
Godly behavior is my new, divine nature; not penance.

Is it possible to sin after we are born again in baptism?

 

[donadams]

What the converted "struggle with" is temptation, not with sin.
Sin would show a lack of conversion.

Good point

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sounds good, for this week.
But next week?
If I go back into drunken revelry and theft, my salvation WILL BE nonexistent.
If salvation was assured, what is the point of progressing?
My salvation is dependent on my progressing.
If it is dependent on anything, it cannot be assured.

Can't you see you're still doing it? You already have it (erroneously) defined in your mind that salvation is by definition permanent and unchanging. That's why you say, "if salvation was assured , what is the point of progressing?"

The point of progressing in faith is to remain in the faith and as a result remain saved and having eternal life (John 5:24). NOW, when Jesus comes back. Though certainly there is the element of our salvation that we will receive at that time.

 

[Hopeful]

Is it possible to sin after we are born again in baptism?

Not if you one is really born again.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

 

[Hopeful]

Can't you see you're still doing it? You already have it (erroneously) defined in your mind that salvation is by definition permanent and unchanging. That's why you say, "if salvation was assured , what is the point of progressing?"

Salvation will be permanent and unchanging, as God will grant it on the day of judgement.
A "winner" can't be crowned until the "race" is over.

The point of progressing in faith is to remain in the faith...

Agreed.

...and as a result remain saved and having eternal life (John 5:24).

Your word "saved" should be "converted".
Salvation won't be determined until the day of judgement.

Though certainly there is the element of our salvation that we will receive at that time.

You are waffling.
If, as you write, you are already saved, what more can be added to it?
More saved? Most saved?
It is written..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then all men are saved?
Thanks
Really want to know, not just taunting you

Not all men believe.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As long as there are "IFs and "AS LONG ASs" attached to our salvation, it cannot be assured.

As long as the condition is believing, and you are satisfying that condition, you have salvation. You have eternal life, you have crossed from death to life, and you will not come under judgment:

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
John 5:24

That's the assurance of salvation that the believing person has. Why don't you believe what Jesus himself said?

BTW, isn't it you who has defined salvation as "permanent and unchangeable"?

No, not me.
I think you're the OSASer here, right?