Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

...it is clear that the context of Heb 5 is something other than remaining free from sin.

It continues into chapter 6 and dovetails quite nicely with what the author speaks about there. He lands on this teaching we've been talking about that works accompany salvation, showing salvation to be sure and present in a person, now, in this life.

8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
Hebrews 6:8-11

The hope to come is the redemption of the body and entrance into the kingdom of God, not becoming a saved person. You are already that in this life.

 

[donadams]

Do you know where you suffered with Christ? (1 Peter 4:1)
I "suffered with Christ" when I was water baptized into Him and into His death. (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24)

In the beginning yes but we are also “called” to suffer Phil 1:29

 

[donadams]

Kind of simultaneous.
Water baptized into His death---suffer with Christ.
It isn't a which comes first scenario, as they happen at the same time.'

Yea true but you can only be baptized once, we are called to suffer daily, yes? Thanks

 

[donadams]

I am glad you see disobedience as a lack of faith.
Now, why is there a confessional in every catholic church?
Are they all unbelievers?

Cos after baptism we still sin and need to repent and confess as scripture indicates Jn 20:21-23
1 Jn 1:9
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Yes, charity is the greatest, and yet justification/salvation is not by charity either as the Catholics claim, lol.

Catholicism is a works gospel.

Not so
Not works alone
Not even faith and works
But by grace in christ
Members of Christ by faith and baptism filled with Holy Spirit and his sanctifying grace that makes all our good works meritorious

Romans 1:5
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
(Must remain obedient)

(He who endured to the end) one who dies in a state of grace united to Jesus Christ by faith and baptism!
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 1 pet 3:21
Matt 24:13


Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

So salvation by “faith alone” is completely false and impossible if baptism is rejected!


Works

Matt 12:35-37

35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Rom 2:5-7

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Thanks

 

[donadams]

You're confusing 'faith alone' (James 2:24), which has nothing to do with receiving the imputation of God's righteousness, with 'righteousness apart from works' (Romans 4:6), which does has everything to do with receiving the imputation of God's righteousness.

Catholics are in serious confusion about this matter. That's why the Protestants had to break away from their corruption and restore the original truth of the scriptures to the church.

By what authority can men replace God, or sects replace the one true church, or error replace the truth?

If it’s apart from works then what part to we have to play?
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Yes. And so is 'faith and works make you righteous' also condemned. The imputation of God's righteousness is entirely by faith in the blood of Christ.

The Catholics have confused this matter so badly. Their doctrine ruined the church until the Protestants restored the church's journey back to the real truth of scripture.

See #585
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Yes, that's what 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 says. And now what we await is the redemption of the body and our deliverance through the flames of the coming judgment. That is the element of our salvation yet to come.

Catholics don't get it that if they're not saved now in this age (which they say is the case) then they won't be saved when they stand before the Lord in judgement at the end of the age.

The imputation of God's righteousness is not what's getting passed out at the judgment. The redemption of the body and escape from the flames of judgement for those who already have the imputation of God's righteous by faith is what's getting passed out at the judgment.

Please explain rom 13:11?
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Thanks

 

[Hopeful]

It continues into chapter 6 and dovetails quite nicely with what the author speaks about there. He lands on this teaching we've been talking about that works accompany salvation, showing salvation to be sure and present in a person, now, in this life.

8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
Hebrews 6:8-11

The hope to come is the redemption of the body and entrance into the kingdom of God, not becoming a saved person. You are already that in this life.

What do you suppose the thorns and thistles represent?
Sin.
Are you assured of living the rest of your life without thorns and thistles?

 

[Hopeful]

In the beginning yes but we are also “called” to suffer Phil 1:29

I agree.
Another context of suffering with Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Yea true but you can only be baptized once, we are called to suffer daily, yes? Thanks

I don't know about suffering with Christ "daily' but at least prepared to suffer with Him daily.
Would you see it as sin if you went a day or two without "suffering with Christ"?

 

[Hopeful]

Cos after baptism we still sin and need to repent and confess as scripture indicates Jn 20:21-23
1 Jn 1:9
Thanks

If one continues to commit sin after allegedly killing the old man, (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24), one never repented of sin to begin with.
It would show one was still a child of the devil. (1 John 3:10)
It would also show one was not walking in God, the light of 1 John 1:5, 7.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you suppose the thorns and thistles represent?

Barrenness.
No fruit of the Spirit.

Are you assured of living the rest of your life without thorns and thistles?

No. That is not a Bible promise.
I am assured that I am called and elected when I bear the fruit of the kingdom in increasing measure - 2 Peter 1:8-10. That's what it says. It's impossible to deny. It's right there in plain words. Salvation is about progression, not perfection.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one continues to commit sin after allegedly killing the old man, (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24), you never repented of sin to begin with.
It would show one was still a child of the devil. (1 John 3:10)
It would also show one was not walking in God, the light of 1 John 1:5, 7.

When you isolate these verses away from the whole counsel of scripture that is when you arrive at the erroneous doctrine of sinless perfection. Virtually all false teaching is the result of not considering the whole counsel of scripture and instead un-rightly dividing various verses of scripture out and away from the whole. Paul and Peter both speak of progression toward righteous living, not perfection in righteous living. Being a saved believer is about growing up and maturing into the image and stature of Christ, not starting out there.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please explain rom 13:11?
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Thanks

I did that already.

You aren't MADE a saved person at the resurrection. It's because you are ALREADY a saved person (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) that you are then saved through the fires of judgment at the resurrection. Notice that prior to Jesus passing judgment on all people, they are ALREADY sheep and goats - Matthew 25:31-46. He doesn't make them sheep at the final judgement. They're already his sheep and saved and have eternal life in this life. John 5:24 is very clear about this. You can't just decide you're going to ignore that very plain verse. The Catholic church is WRONG about this.

 

[Hopeful]

Barrenness.
No fruit of the Spirit.

As every kind of spirit bears its own fruit, barrenness can illustrate from which spirit it is from.
Besides, the fruit was thorns and thistles.

No. That is not a Bible promise.

How then can you intimate that salvation can be assured?
If it was, all the fruit would always be Godly.

I am assured that I am called and elected when I bear the fruit of the kingdom in increasing measure - 2 Peter 1:8-10. That's what it says. It's impossible to deny. It's right there in plain words. Salvation is about progression, not perfection.

Mixed seed, eh?
Ever heard of the prophetic OT Law forbidding that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How then can you intimate that salvation can be assured?
If it was, all the fruit would always be Godly.

Read the 2 Peter 1:8-10 passage I posted and tell me it doesn't say PROGRESSION in the traits of the Spirit assures one of their calling and election.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mixed seed, eh?
Ever heard of the prophetic OT Law forbidding that?

Mixed seed doesn't determine if you're saved or not. The ever increasing traits of the Spirit does. Less of one, and more of the other assures the believer that they are called and elected. Show me 2 Peter 1:8-10 doesn't say that and I'll show you it does.

 

[Hopeful]

When you isolate these verses away from the whole counsel of scripture that is when you arrive at the erroneous doctrine of sinless perfection.

It is called the doctrine which is according to Godliness in the bible, (1 Tim 6:3), and when seen all together shows that perfect obedience to God is not only possible, but God ordained.

Virtually all false teaching is the result of not considering the whole counsel of scripture and instead un-rightly dividing various verses of scripture out and away from the whole. Paul and Peter both speak of progression toward righteous living, not perfection in righteous living. Being a saved believer is about growing up and maturing into the image and stature of Christ, not starting out there.

Virtually all false doctrine accommodates sin.
Something the doctrine which is according to Godiness doesn't do.
Your "progression" starts with perfection, as nothing reborn of God's seed is imperfect.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If it’s apart from works then what part to we have to play?

NONE!
You have nothing to contribute towards having the righteousness of God. It can only be given to a person as a free gift through the forgiveness of their sin received by faith, not the merit of their work.