Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Is He going to leave us powerless in our efforts to obey Him perfectly?

No, but you are only going to use the power of God to be perfect to the extent that you are mature in Christ. We LEARN to distinguish good from evil and walk in righteousness:

13For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.
Hebrews 5:13-14

It's a training process as we get weaned off the milk knowledge of the word (baptisms, end-times stuff, etc.) and eat the meat of the word of righteousness. You say there is no training process. You say the true believer is born 100% perfect complete and sinless from the spiritual womb.

 

[Hopeful]

The body of Christ as in people.

No doubt, but we are also "baptized into Christ". (Gal 3:27)
We in Him and He in us...precluding sin from any of us that are in Him.

 

[Hopeful]

Only through much denial of scripture can anyone make such a statement.

Only through the adherence to the doctrines that accommodates sin can anyone make such a statement.
It would necessitate sin being in Christ, in God, and in the sanctified temple of the Holy Ghost.
All are impossible.

 

[Hopeful]

Sorry but you have to use verses in context.

The wisdom of God stand alone.

He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:10-11
As we see, a Christian can indeed hate his brother. Sin.

Can't you tell the difference between walking in darkness and walking in the light, which is God?
You are in effect calling God sinful !

 

[Hopeful]

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. Galatians 5:16-17


Your flesh opposes the Spirit according to scripture.


Why would “sinless” flesh oppose the Spirit.

It doesn't...it opposes the flesh.
Why do you keep forgetting about the word "against"?
My Spiritual "lusts" are against that which is of the "flesh".
I walk in the Spirit, so won't fulfil the "flesh's" lusts...that I "would" have done were I was still in the "flesh".

 

[Hopeful]

In your religion you're wondering if you're a true believer or not by whether or not you make it to the end without sinning. But we, as children of God, are forgiven by God when we sin.

God hates all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)
It is written..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23)
And..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

 

[Hopeful]

Don't change the passage. It says growth in self-control, love, perseverance, brotherly kindness and godliness. The believer growing up into these qualities signifies that they are not 100% perfect and complete in these things and needs to grow up into them. IOW, they are sinning, but less and less as they grow up. You can't just decide to change what the passage says to accommodate your theology. You need to start letting your theology accommodate the Bible.

Growth in the characteristics of God don't signify unGodliness.

5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11

Amen to Peter's words.
Keep growing !

While our calling and election is made sure by growing in these things, your religion's calling and election can never be sure because you say you know if you're really called and elected by whether or not you never sin in this lifetime. So you have to wait until your lifetime is over to see if you're really called and elected. Which we can see from the passage is not how one knows they are called and elected. But why let scripture get in the way of a preconceived theology, right?

Correct, as I have no idea what I will be doing in 10 years.
Some proponent of sin may sway me over to the dark side if I am not careful to be on my guard in places like this.
There will be a day of judgement, and then I will know for sure.
For now, I am left to my hope, and to the effective use of the tools my Lord gave us to keep walking in the light.
Praise be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

No, but you are only going to use the power of God to be perfect to the extent that you are mature in Christ. We LEARN to distinguish good from evil and walk in righteousness:

13For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil.
Hebrews 5:13-14

It's a training process as we get weaned off the milk knowledge of the word (baptisms, end-times stuff, etc.) and eat the meat of the word of righteousness. You say there is no training process. You say the true believer is born 100% perfect complete and sinless from the spiritual womb.

Where did I say we don't continue to grow in grace and knowledge?
I think I have actually mentioned it frequently.
I say the true believer is reborn perfect, as that is all that Gods perfect seed can gender.
Are you implying God's seed is bringing forth liars, adulterers, and thieves?
I hope you aren't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God hates all workers of iniquity. (Psalm 5:5)
It is written..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23)
And..."In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10)

Just another example of un-rightly dividing the word of God away from the whole counsel of scripture and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Growth in the characteristics of God don't signify unGodliness.

In the passage, growth is growth away from ungodliness.
But you say you started out in, and remain in complete and perfect godliness. No growth necessary, because if growth was necessary that would mean you didn't really believe. That is a religion conjured up from un-rightly divided parts of the Bible, not the whole counsel of the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Amen to Peter's words.
Keep growing !

Yes, Peter says to keep growing in brotherly kindness, love, self-control, godliness, and perseverance. But you say if you have to do that then you are not a real believer because real believers are 100% perfect and complete and remain that way.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Correct, as I have no idea what I will be doing in 10 years.
Some proponent of sin may sway me over to the dark side if I am not careful to be on my guard in places like this.
There will be a day of judgement, and then I will know for sure.

You can never know for sure if your believing is for real. That's a very sad religion. Meanwhile, we understand the scriptures that tell us we can know for sure if we truly believe and are children of God by if we are growing up into the image and stature of our Father exemplified in Jesus.

For now, I am left to my hope, and to the effective use of the tools my Lord gave us to keep walking in the light.
Praise be to God !

Your hope is not a sure hope.
Ours is.

You are hoping that you really believe, just like a person hopes they have the winning lottery ticket.
But our hope is sure. A hope that is based on the sureness of Christ's ministry and sacrifice.
And we know with surety that we possess that hope by the fact we are growing in the traits and characteristics of the Spirit.

This is the Biblical truth about this matter. You are believing a lie about it. A lie developed by only considering part of the counsel of scripture and remaining ignorant about the rest.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where did I say we don't continue to grow in grace and knowledge?

You redefined 'growing in grace and knowledge' to make it so it does not mean improving in your obedience to God. You have to do that because to say it means you're getting better at obeying God would say the believer is not 100% perfect and complete, defeating the fundamental premise of your religion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I say the true believer is reborn perfect, as that is all that Gods perfect seed can gender.
Are you implying God's seed is bringing forth liars, adulterers, and thieves?
I hope you aren't.

Sin does not come from God's seed, his word, in a person. It comes from the flesh. And for a person to remain unchanged in their old life shows no transformation has occurred in that person.

No growth, no progress towards God is what signifies you are not a born again child in the family of God. But you say the absence of a 100% perfect and complete life of obedience is what shows you are not born again. That simply is not Biblical. That theology ignores the whole counsel of God's word. That is the theology of the Pharisee who thinks he is justified by being perfectly obedient, and perhaps worse, is deceived into thinking he is perfectly obedient.

 

[JLB]

No doubt, but we are also "baptized into Christ". (Gal 3:27)
We in Him and He in us...precluding sin from any of us that are in Him.

Our spirit is one with Him.

Our flesh and blood body is not in heaven.

He Himself is seated at the right hand of God in heaven.

We are on earth.

Flesh and blood is not in heaven.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50

• nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Right now in this life we have a physical body that is corrupt because of sin. At His coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, our flesh and blood body will be raised incorruptible and without sin.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23


At His coming we will be raised incorruptible.


So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44



You will receive an incorruptible body, at His coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


Now you have a natural body, then you will have a spiritual body.





JLB

 

[JLB]

Only through the adherence to the doctrines that accommodates sin can anyone make such a statement.
It would necessitate sin being in Christ, in God, and in the sanctified temple of the Holy Ghost.
All are impossible.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The doctrine of Christ exposes your doctrine, as being false.

If you say you have no sin, then you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The wisdom of God stand alone.

Can't you tell the difference between walking in darkness and walking in the light, which is God?
You are in effect calling God sinful !

I can tell the difference in walking in darkness, because the word of God defines it for me. Not a denomination.


He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11

 

[Hopeful]

Just another example of un-rightly dividing the word of God away from the whole counsel of scripture and the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You do know that all you replied to was scripture?

 

[Hopeful]

In the passage, growth is growth away from ungodliness.
But you say you started out in, and remain in complete and perfect godliness. No growth necessary, because if growth was necessary that would mean you didn't really believe. That is a religion conjured up from un-rightly divided parts of the Bible, not the whole counsel of the Bible.

Why can't the Godly grow more Godly?
I know that I personally have excluded things from my life that I initially felt were OK.
Godliness isn't a plateau.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, Peter says to keep growing in brotherly kindness, love, self-control, godliness, and perseverance. But you say if you have to do that then you are not a real believer because real believers are 100% perfect and complete and remain that way.

You misinterpret the intent of my post.
As you have previously said that babies grow, so do Christians.
After I was converted, (repented and was baptized), I made several drastic changes in my life.
Over the years I have made additional changes of a lesser grade.
I had grown in the grace and knowledge of our Lord's mind on matters relevant to me and to those around me.
So, I was reborn a Christian, and grew from that point.
And though I will never, on earth, know everything, I am still a reborn Christian.
Thanks be to God !