Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[GodsGrace]

That was my understanding of both JB and the “faith alone” crowd
Thanks

JLB has a correct understanding of salvation and works.
So does the CC.
I fear that you create division where none is necessary.

We are all saved by grace and faith alone.
That would be justification.

It happens when you believe.
In baptism you receive the Holy Spirit, as I trust you know. Also, all your previous sins are forgiven.

 

[Hopeful]

Don’t confuse being one spirit with Him, as being the same as being one flesh.

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:30)...sounds like more than just spirit.

Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17

As my skin and bones are His now, I feel we can understand that "flesh" could just as honestly be substituted for the word spirit in 1 Cor 6.
We are one with the Lord as He was one with the Father. (John 17:11,22)
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hopeful]

It’s amazing how the scripture, the very scripture you tagged your opinion with, says exactly the opposite of what you stated, because your perspective is generated by the false teaching that has been embedded in your mind and has become a stronghold; a device that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8
Who does this scripture say, is cleansed from sin?
Those who walk in the light?
or
Those who walk in darkness?

Are you walking in the light?
Or are you walking in the darkness?
What is the light?
"God is light and in Him is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
What is darkness?
"The way of the wicked is as darkness..." (Pro 4:19)

The way of the wicked is sinful, so sin is darkness.
There is no sin in the light.

So if you are sinning, you are walking in darkness.
If you are sinning you cannot say you have fellowship with God. (1 John 1:6)
And you can't say you have no sin. (1 John 1:8)
And you can't say you never sinned. (1John 1:10)

BUT...If we walk in the light, God, we can say we have fellowship with God.
We can say we have no sin, because the blood of His Son washed it ALL away. (1 John 1:7)
1 John 1:9's confession takes place before 1 John 1:7's baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

1 John 1 is written to the church to provide the evidence they, and we, need to tell who is actually walking in God and who is not.
Those who cannot say they have no sin are not walking in God.
They are walking in darkness.

 

[Hopeful]

Here is the religion of the Pharisee:

...Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Matthew 23:27-28

See, just as I said...they knew what to do but didn't do it.

There's was an outward righteousness by which they were deceived into thinking they were perfect before God. It caused them to be like this:
‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.'
Luke 18:11
Sound like any "religion" you are familiar with?

Yes, all of the false ones.
The false ones claim Christ while walking in sin.
But don't get discouraged, as the real church is still going strong, by the grace of the ever loving God !

 

[donadams]

Oh my goodness.
A simple question, requires a simple answer...
Please try again.
I'd reply.
But I think it's important that you do.

I said yes!

 

[donadams]

JLB has a correct understanding of salvation and works.
So does the CC.
I fear that you create division where none is necessary.

We are all saved by grace and faith alone.
That would be justification.

It happens when you believe.
In baptism you receive the Holy Spirit, as I trust you know. Also, all your previous sins are forgiven.

That’s a contradiction?
Is it faith alone or baptism?
Thanks

 

[donadams]

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:30)...sounds like more than just spirit.

As my skin and bones are His now, I feel we can understand that "flesh" could just as honestly be substituted for the word spirit in 1 Cor 6.
We are one with the Lord as He was one with the Father. (John 17:11,22)
Thanks be to God !

Are we in his body by faith alone or baptism?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See, just as I said...they knew what to do but didn't do it.

They knew what to do ON THE OUTSIDE and so considered themselves sinlessly perfect, blind to the fact that they were not.

They lived a life of justification by works in which their righteousness is by perfect and flawless execution of righteous deeds and rituals, instead of becoming and remaining righteous through the continual forgiveness of God as they grow up into perfection.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Justification is the same.
Works without faith Cannot save.
This is believed also by Catholics.

Do Catholics believe you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals?

 

[donadams]

Do Catholics believe you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals?

No!

 

[GodsGrace]

That was my understanding of both JB and the “faith alone” crowd
Thanks

You have to be careful about the FAITH ALONE crowd.

FAITH ALONE saves us and all Christians believe this.

JLB and Jethro Bodine are not of the FAITH ALONE crowd.

Read carefully what they state.
I hate to have to defend the CC because I'm not even Catholic.
I also hate to say that you do misrepresent it sometimes.
I wish I knew where you get your info from.
Use the CCC or the New Advent Encyclopedia.
You know a lot, maybe it's the way it's presented.

I do see your faith and love you in the Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do Catholics believe you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals?

NO.
If by rituals you mean the commandments, then they believe that grace is received ALSO by participating in these rituals.
But that's not the only way.

That explanation about meritorious work in the Catholicism Forum is really important if you want to understand works in the CC.

To become righteous, right with God, you must believe that He exists.

41. Why is it not enough to know God through the proofs for His existence? (CCC 35)It is not enough to know God through the proofs for His existence, because these proofs can only predispose man to Faith and help him see that Faith is not opposed to reason. Man, however, is meant to have a personal and intimate relationship with God, which these proofs cannot give.
source: http://www.catholic-catechism.com/level_7.htm

(this is not the official catechism. But explains what the paragraph of the CCC means.
Click on the blue and you'll see the actual CCC paragraph which is official).

 

[GodsGrace]

I said yes!

This is also for Jethro Bodine who originally asked.
The yes is to:
WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH ONLY.
WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, IOW.

I do believe Jethro would agree with what comes after too.

 

[GodsGrace]

That’s a contradiction?
Is it faith alone or baptism?
Thanks

The CC teaches that faith and baptism saves.

The problem is this. Everything is great when you're reading from the CCC or some other official source.
But what if you were teaching a class on this?
Many questions would come up.
For instance here's one:
What if a person has become a believer.
They were an atheist and now they believe in God.
The moment this happens they have faith and become justified.
But they haven't been baptized yet.
They're on their way to a store and get hit by a car and die.
What happens in reality?
Do they end up in hell because they weren't baptized?

No.
They go to heaven (or purgatory, I'm not debating that).
Why? Because they had the DESIRE OF BAPTISM.
God is a just God and He will always be just with us.

If we say that Faith AND Baptism save,,,
it makes a person feel that they'll go to hell if they don't get baptized.


CCC 1281
1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved even if they have not been baptized.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do Catholics believe you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals?

Also, see post 1094 about baptism.

 

[jaybo]

Also, see post 1094 about baptism.

Go to sleep!

 

[JLB]

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:30)...sounds like more than just spirit.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Ephesians 5:25-33


You err, not knowing the word, nor understanding the truth of the scriptures.


So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44



Does Christ Jesus who is seated at the right hand of God, have a natural body or a spiritual body?





JLB

 

[JLB]

Are you walking in the light?

Im walking in the light, which is love.

Walking in darkness is walking in hate.


He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11



Again, please answer the question —


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8


Who does this scripture say, is cleansed from sin?

Those who walk in the light?

or

Those who walk in darkness?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You have to be careful about the FAITH ALONE crowd.

FAITH ALONE saves us and all Christians believe this.

@JLB and @Jethro Bodine are not of the FAITH ALONE crowd.

There is no scripture that says we are saved by faith alone.


There must be grace and faith.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10


After we are saved, then we are able to walk in the good works prepared beforehand by God.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no scripture that says we are saved by faith alone.


There must be grace and faith.


For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10


After we are saved, then we are able to walk in the good works prepared beforehand by God.




JLB

True.
But most persons mean on OUR part.
Grace is on God's part.
Of course, faith is a gift.
But we have to want it.
Ephesians 2 covers it all !