Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Hopeful]

You can never know for sure if your believing is for real. That's a very sad religion.

Better that than thinking I am set for heaven but have been led astray.

Meanwhile, we understand the scriptures that tell us we can know for sure if we truly believe and are children of God by if we are growing up into the image and stature of our Father exemplified in Jesus.

Will you never be led astray?
Will you never tell a lie to save yours, or someone else's, life?

Your hope is not a sure hope.
Ours is.

By my avatar you can see that I am "hopeful", as you probably are too.

You are hoping that you really believe, just like a person hopes they have the winning lottery ticket.

Your not?

But our hope is sure. A hope that is based on the sureness of Christ's ministry and sacrifice.
And we know with surety that we possess that hope by the fact we are growing in the traits and characteristics of the Spirit.

Hope is one thing, but knowing is something else.
The gift of the Holy Ghost is only a "seal of the inheritance".
A promise of eternal life.
But that promise is conditional.

This is the Biblical truth about this matter. You are believing a lie about it. A lie developed by only considering part of the counsel of scripture and remaining ignorant about the rest.

It is written..."Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Cor 9:24-27)
Do you really feel that there is no need for you to "run" or "strive" or "fight" for the incorruptible crown?

 

[Hopeful]

You redefined 'growing in grace and knowledge' to make it so it does not mean improving in your obedience to God. You have to do that because to say it means you're getting better at obeying God would say the believer is not 100% perfect and complete, defeating the fundamental premise of your religion.

The disobedient won't be growing in grace and knowledge now, will they?
And I didn't see "obedience" on Peter's list.
Why can't the Godly grow more and more Godly?
Can't the "temperant" or the "patient" grow more and more temperant and patient?
Ever heard the expression..."I learn something new every day." ?

 

[Hopeful]

Sin does not come from God's seed, his word, in a person. It comes from the flesh.

It is a good thing the "flesh" has been crucified, (Gal 5:24), circumcised, (Col 2:11), and destroyed, (Rom 6:6) !

And for a person to remain unchanged in their old life shows no transformation has occurred in that person.

Correct. No repentance is manifested.

No growth, no progress towards God is what signifies you are not a born again child in the family of God.

Correct. No growth manifests something is very wrong.

But you say the absence of a 100% perfect and complete life of obedience is what shows you are not born again.

Correct again. in shows that one is still a child of the devil. (1 John 3:10)

That simply is not Biblical. That theology ignores the whole counsel of God's word. That is the theology of the Pharisee who thinks he is justified by being perfectly obedient, and perhaps worse, is deceived into thinking he is perfectly obedient.

You misdefine the Pharisees.
They may have known what was required to please God, but they didn't actually do it.
Sound like any "religion" you are familiar with?

I thank God for making obedience possible now, through the gift of repentance from sin and the gift of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and for the gift of rebirth from God's seed, and for the gift of the Holy Spirit, and for the gifts of pastors-prophets-and teachers.

 

[Hopeful]

Our spirit is one with Him.
Our flesh and blood body is not in heaven.

Don't confuse being one with Him and being physically in heaven.

He Himself is seated at the right hand of God in heaven.

It is written..."And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Eph 2:6)

We are on earth.

If by "we" you mean...like Paul wrote..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)
"We" are one.

Flesh and blood is not in heaven.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
1 Corinthians 15:50

• nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Thanks be to God for the "change" we will experiance on the day of judgemnet !

Right now in this life we have a physical body that is corrupt because of sin. At His coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, our flesh and blood body will be raised incorruptible and without sin.

Jesus offered the way to be free from that corrupted (by sin) body.
It may stll age and deteriorate with age, but it can be kept holy and uncorrupted by sin.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:20-23

Amen, and I can hardly wait for it !
Don't confuse a withering body with sinfulness.

At His coming we will be raised incorruptible.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44

Bring it on, Lord !

You will receive an incorruptible body, at His coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.
Now you have a natural body, then you will have a spiritual body.

Best to keep the my self clean-pure...eh?

 

[Hopeful]

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Perfectly appropriate...if we are walking in darkness/sin
Thanks be to God for providing the way to walk in the light/God, wherein is no sin. (1 John 1:7)

The doctrine of Christ exposes your doctrine, as being false.
If you say you have no sin, then you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you.

Is 1 John 1:7 a lie?
It says ALL our sins can be washed away by the blood of Christ !
Please don't tell me that is a lie !

 

[Hopeful]

I can tell the difference in walking in darkness, because the word of God defines it for me. Not a denomination.


He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. 1 John 2:9-11

It is written..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:.." (Pro 4:19)
The way of the wicked, sinners, is darkness.

 

[JLB]

Don't confuse being one with Him and being physically in heaven.

Don’t confuse being one spirit with Him, as being the same as being one flesh.


Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:16-17



JLB

 

[JLB]

Perfectly appropriate...if we are walking in darkness/sin
Thanks be to God for providing the way to walk in the light/God, wherein is no sin. (1 John 1:7)

It’s amazing how the scripture, the very scripture you tagged your opinion with, says exactly the opposite of what you stated, because your perspective is generated by the false teaching that has been embedded in your mind and has become a stronghold; a device that exalts itself against the knowledge of God.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:7-8


Who does this scripture say, is cleansed from sin?

Those who walk in the light?

or

Those who walk in darkness?





JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You misdefine the Pharisees.
They may have known what was required to please God, but they didn't actually do it.
Sound like any "religion" you are familiar with?

Here is the religion of the Pharisee:

...Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
Matthew 23:27-28

There's was an outward righteousness by which they were deceived into thinking they were perfect before God. It caused them to be like this:

‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.'
Luke 18:11

Sound like any "religion" you are familiar with?

 

[donadams]

Scripture says: He brought us to life.
Eph 2:1

JB says: I bring myself to life by “faith alone”.


Scripture says: even all faith without charity avails nothing. 1 cor 13:2

JB says: Faith alone” avails justification and righteousness.


Scripture says: three things are eternal, faith, hope, and charity.

JB says: “Faith alone”.


Scripture says: apart from me you can do nothing.

JB says: apart from Christ your act of faith gives justification.

Scripture says: not called to faith alone, but also to suffer, (practice virtue)

JB says: “Faith alone”

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JB says: I bring myself to life by “faith alone”.

Giggle...JB does NOT say that.

God brings his people to life through faith, apart from works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JB says: apart from Christ your act of faith gives justification.

The Bible says a person is justified (becomes righteous) by faith apart from works.
You are in a works religion that says you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals.

Chime in, please, wondering. Is donadams representing Catholicism correctly?

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture says: He brought us to life.
Eph 2:1

JB says: I bring myself to life by “faith alone”.


Scripture says: even all faith without charity avails nothing. 1 cor 13:2

JB says: Faith alone” avails justification and righteousness.


Scripture says: three things are eternal, faith, hope, and charity.

JB says: “Faith alone”.


Scripture says: apart from me you can do nothing.

JB says: apart from Christ your act of faith gives justification.

Scripture says: not called to faith alone, but also to suffer, (practice virtue)

JB says: “Faith alone”

Hi Don
Could I ask if you're Catholic?
You mix up different ideas and I find it rather confusing, and i fear you don't properly represent Catholicism.

So here's a simple question for you...
How does a person become JUSTIFIED in the eyes of God?


Jethro Bodine

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible says a person is justified (becomes righteous) by faith apart from works.
You are in a works religion that says you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals.

Chime in, please, wondering. Is donadams representing Catholicism correctly?

Justification is the same.
Works without faith Cannot save.
This is believed also by Catholics.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture says: He brought us to life.
Eph 2:1

JB says: I bring myself to life by “faith alone”.


Scripture says: even all faith without charity avails nothing. 1 cor 13:2

JB says: Faith alone” avails justification and righteousness.


Scripture says: three things are eternal, faith, hope, and charity.

JB says: “Faith alone”.


Scripture says: apart from me you can do nothing.

JB says: apart from Christ your act of faith gives justification.

Scripture says: not called to faith alone, but also to suffer, (practice virtue)

JB says: “Faith alone”

First the above is not what JLB believes.

Second , do not misrepresent what another member believes. Do not STATE what he believes, but ask if you've understood him properly. Thanks.

 

[donadams]

Giggle...JB does NOT say that.

God brings his people to life through faith, apart from works.

No you claim it’s your act of faith apart from Christ.

 

[donadams]

The Bible says a person is justified (becomes righteous) by faith apart from works.
You are in a works religion that says you become righteous by doing righteous deeds and rituals.

Chime in, please, wondering. Is donadams representing Catholicism correctly?

Your not, first we are brought to the life of grace by baptism then are actions are meritorious
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Hi Don
Could I ask if you're Catholic?
You mix up different ideas and I find it rather confusing, and i fear you don't properly represent Catholicism.

So here's a simple question for you...
How does a person become JUSTIFIED in the eyes of God?


Jethro Bodine

Yes, by faith and baptism Mk 16:16

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!


We must also suffer!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.

 

[donadams]

First the above is not what JLB believes.

Second , do not misrepresent what another member believes. Do not STATE what he believes, but ask if you've understood him properly. Thanks.

That was my understanding of both JB and the “faith alone” crowd
Thanks

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, by faith and baptism Mk 16:16

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

“Faith alone” unbiblical!

“Faith alone” is a heresy condemned by the authority of Christ in holy apostolic council!


We must also suffer!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29 not called to believe alone but also to suffer for Christ’s sake.

Oh my goodness.
A simple question, requires a simple answer...
Please try again.
I'd reply.
But I think it's important that you do.