Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't you believe in infused grace?

Absolutely not.

God does not give me grace to make myself righteous by working righteousness. God gave me the grace of his righteousness so that I might work. My right standing before God being dependent on the sufficiency of Christ's righteousness imputed to me by faith, not dependent on my ability to use the grace of God to act righteously.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Not what some article says about the CC or what some misguided poster says about it.

It was a direct quote of Luther. Not someone's interpretation of Luther.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know that you are Catholic.

Oh for goodness sakes Jethro.
We've only known each other about 7 or 8 years.
I'M NOT CATHOLIC.
I left the CC over 40 years ago.
(I don't know how that's possible since I'm only 38).

 

[GodsGrace]

I posted the active link.

Infused grace is a works gospel.

I'm beginning to see, now, how to address the subtle deception of Catholic teaching about righteousness.

Catholics use the grace of God to gradually become righteous.

Protestants receive the grace of God's righteousness and do not strive to work their own.

Read Luther's testimony in the link. It's an easy read and it will help you understand the profound difference between what's going on in the mind of the Catholic vs. what's going on in the mind of the Protestant.

Protestants are already righteous. Catholics are working to become righteous. You may find out you're not very Catholic at all!

Why are you telling me to read Luther's testimony?
I stated it to you quite a few posts ago.
I don't know what an active link is....I can't click on anything.

Please explain to me what infused grace is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Absolutely not.

God does not give me grace to make myself righteous by working righteousness. God gave me the grace of his righteousness so that I might work. My right standing before God being dependent on the sufficiency of Christ's righteousness imputed to me by faith, not dependent on my ability to use the grace of God to act righteously.

Explain infused grace.
Sometimes we use different wording.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh for goodness sakes Jethro.
We've only known each other about 7 or 8 years.
I'M NOT CATHOLIC.
I left the CC over 40 years ago.
(I don't know how that's possible since I'm only 38).

I knew that you had more or less departed from Catholicism.

I think if you hang in with me here you'll either reject it as a false gospel, or stay in it to the extent that you have.

I now know the Catholic view of righteousness well enough to expose the subtle deception of the works gospel that it is. The key is "infused righteousness" vs. "Imputed righteousness" and what that actually means in the scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why are you telling me to read Luther's testimony?
I stated it to you quite a few posts ago.
I don't know what an active link is....I can't click on anything.

Please explain to me what infused grace is.

I will explain when I get back to my PC.

 

[GodsGrace]

It was a direct quote of Luther. Not someone's interpretation of Luther.

I got that.

 

[GodsGrace]

I knew that you had more or less departed from Catholicism.

I think if you hang in with me here you'll either reject it as a false gospel, or stay in it to the extent that you have.

I now know the Catholic view of righteousness well enough to expose the subtle deception of the works gospel that it is. The key is "infused righteousness" vs. "Imputed righteousness" and what that actually means in the scriptures.

I can't reject Catholicism as a false gospel !
They believe what we do:
Adam sinned by his own free will.
We all lost our relationship with God through him.
God planned a way of salvation for us.
That way is Jesus.
When we die we go to where we're supposed to be - no soul sleep.
We believe in the Trinity.
We believe in the man Jesus and God Jesus...the hypostatic union.
We believe each person can be saved if he so wishes.
We believe the creeds, the nicene or apostles or one of them.
We believe in baptism for the remission of sins.
(who knows what else).

Will check in later to see about this infused grace.

 

[Hopeful]

The Day of Atonement. And all the various ceremonial washings required by the law.

Can you show where the Law says to get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ?
I can't even find the word "baptize" in the OT.

These are works that have zero power to cause you to become a righteous person.

If we are still discussing baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, don't you think that having no sin is righteousness defined?

Only the washing of God's forgiveness by virtue of the blood of Christ, received by faith, not works, can make you a righteous person.

How do you wash with Jesus' blood?
By water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:38, 22:16)

 

[Hopeful]

In regard to justification they are works insofar as they contribute NOTHING toward justification (the imputation of God's righteousness). That is received entirely by believing in your heart that the blood of Christ is the sacrifice that God accepts and approves of for the forgiveness of sin. If you think you have to do rituals and/or works to receive the imputation of God's righteousness you are serving the damnable works gospel that Paul says can not justify.

See what I meant earlier by abhorring calling repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ works?
The only works Paul wrote against were the works of the Law.
Circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc.
You, on the other hand, have made a new Law that forbids any action taken to insure "doing everything God demands".
Repentance from sin...outlawed.
Baptism in the name of Jesu Christ for the remission of sins...outlawed.
How about asking for the gift of the Holy Ghost?...Outlawed?
Don't hearing and believing also fit your "outlawed" parameters?
Unfortunately you have bought the false "sit on your hands" gospel.

 

[Hopeful]

But it's not among the works that can not justify. It is clearly contrasted with the works that can not justify, and which no man can boast about.

As the justifying, atoning, sanctifying blood of the Redeemer is applied at water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, it is as necessary as hearing and believing.
BTW, who boasts about quitting sin and getting baptized?
To what end?
Persecution?

 

[Hopeful]

No. Obedience does not make you righteous. Only the forgiveness of your sin received through faith makes you righteous. There is no work that makes you righteous. If you think there is then you are serving a works gospel - another gospel. A gospel that can not save.

Without water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, there is no remission of sins.
Without remission of past sins you are not righteous.
The perpetrator of the myth you believe is not of God.

 

[Hopeful]

Sure.
But I see change from the beginning.
I feel like there's still room for change - not as much as the beginning.
And I don't mean that I drank or was promiscuous or anything like that... (yeah, I'm perfect! LOL)
the changes were small but significant.

We will all continue to grow in grace and knowledge, but the starting point is one of perfection, as that is all that God's seed can provide.

Agreed. There is no sin in God.
But there is possible sin in us.

How?
If we are "in God" we are as free of sin as He is.

I don't know any person that is perfect in every way.
To say that you don't sin...you'd have to be perfect.
And I do believe that only Jesus was a perfect man.

He was the first.
Many have followed His example.
You don't have to be a perfect speller or typist to remain in Christ, or in the light.

What about the future sins?

What future sins will someone walking in the Spirit, and in Christ, and attending to the things of God, commit?
Sin would show a false repentance from sin, and a failed rebirth from God's seed.
Apple seeds can't bear olives.
God's seed cannot bear liars or thieves.

Why did John make a way for them to be forgiven?

Where?

Why did Jesus tell the Apostles they could forgive sins?

They could, if the sin was against them, or by baptism in His name.
So can we.

I do agree with your second sentence.
Like I said....I haven't had the experience of meeting a sinless person.

You have now.
To the glory of God.

The achievement is the Lord's...but Paul is telling CHRISTIAN brothers what not to do.

Of course he is, it is called exhortation and admonission.
Stay on your toes !
Mind your P's and Q's, look both ways before turning into traffic, wait a while after eating before going in the pool.
All these things are brought up to keep us safe.
They also help identify the posers who try to infiltrate the "Body".

If they never sinned anymore....Paul wouldn't find it necessary to preach what NOT to do.

Not everyone in the the addressed churches were as wise as the OGs. (Original Godly)
If you joined the church of the Colossians you wouldn't have the knowledge the others had, so there is no harm in repeating things others may have already known.

As to freeing us from service to sin...
Agreed. Amen to that.
We serve the one to whom we present ourselves.

Jesus said we can only serve one master, and would love one and hate the other if we tried to serve two. (Matt 6:24)
Servants of sin hate God.

I did explain how I understood Galatians.
We crucified the sin nature to a cross.
But it's not dead...it's under submission to our new heart.
John Wesley taught we could live a totally sanctified life.
No one believes this anymore.

The sin nature, and all of the rest of us, are as dead as Christ was.
And it was NOT raised from the dead to walk with Christ in newness of life..

Fine by me.
Some call it legalism.
Some call it works.
Some call it The Law.
Whatever works.

It doesn't work.
The things of the Mosaic Law didn't make or keep the believer perfect the first time, so why continue to beat a dead horse"? (Heb 7:19)

Romans 8.8
Those that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Those that are in the flesh are not saved.
1 John 3:8
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God
If we PRACTICE sin we are of satan, the ruler of this world.
Jesus destroyed his works...
We are born of God and cannot PRACTICE sin because we are children of God.

Practicing sin and sinning are different.

No, they are not.
The "Genderer" is identified by the fruit.

There is allowance made for sinning both by Jesus and John and Paul.

God and His people make no allowances for sin.
Jesus died so we could be free of sin, so your POV is that His death wasn't necessary?

Who is the ANY MAN in 1 John 2:1 ?

The man who commits sin; those walking in darkness.

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Paul is addressing the little children - saved again believers.
He states that WE HAVE AN ADVOCATE....We is the children.

And so can anyone else who desires to use that Advocate.
"We" have the Advocate for "them".
If they are "saved" they no longer need the advocacy of the Lord in matters of sin.

Paul (sic) is telling them not to violate God's laws....this is sin.
Amplified
My little children (believers, dear ones), I am writing you these things so that you will not sin and violate God’s law. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate [who will intercede for us] with the Father: Jesus Christ the righteous [the upright, the just One, who conforms to the Father’s will in every way—purpose, thought, and action].

John also wrote..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)
And..."Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him." (1 John 3:6)
And..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
A single sin shows a man does not know Him, abide in Him, seen Him, or is begotten of Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please explain to me what infused grace is.

You use God's grace to work to present yourself righteous before him and, therefore, eligible for salvation. That's the Catholic's understanding of God's grace in justification.

The Protestant understanding is you receive by faith the grace of Christ's righteousness, whereby you become completely and totally righteous in God's sight and, therefore, eligible for salvation. And not just in the future, but right now, the moment you believe (John 5:24). You are righteous completely on the merit of Christ's righteousness imputed to you through faith, not on the merit of the righteous work God enables you to do.

 

[donadams]

NOT by doing righteous things. That's the works gospel.

You receive mercy by receiving God's forgiveness APART FROM WORKS.

This truth is what shows the Catholic religion to be a works religion. It says you receive mercy in justification/salvation by doing righteous rituals and obeying righteous commands. That's the works gospel!

Jesus and the gospel and scripture do not concur

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy

Is charity works?
thanks

 

[donadams]

It is written..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (2 Cor 7:10)
Turn from sin, permanently !

Christ, the real gospel, scripture do not concur

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy
Thanks

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus and the gospel and scripture do not concur

Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy

Is charity works?
thanks

Of course charity is works. And it, along with any other righteous work or ritual you can think of, can not make you righteous enough to stand before God in righteousness.

Your righteousness, no matter how God enabled it may be, can never be adequate enough to make you worthy of the kingdom. Only Christ's righteousness given to you as a gift through faith is good enough to make you eligible to enter into the kingdom.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I can't reject Catholicism as a false gospel !
They believe what we do:
Adam sinned by his own free will.
We all lost our relationship with God through him.
God planned a way of salvation for us.
That way is Jesus.
When we die we go to where we're supposed to be - no soul sleep.
We believe in the Trinity.
We believe in the man Jesus and God Jesus...the hypostatic union.
We believe each person can be saved if he so wishes.
We believe the creeds, the nicene or apostles or one of them.
We believe in baptism for the remission of sins.
(who knows what else).

Will check in later to see about this infused grace.

But Catholicism does not believe as we Protestants do in this matter of how we gain the righteousness required to enter into the kingdom of God. That is the important matter that distinguishes the works gospel of Catholicism from the faith gospel of Protestantism.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See what I meant earlier by abhorring calling repentance from sin and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ works?
The only works Paul wrote against were the works of the Law.
Circumcision, dietary rules, sabbath keeping, tithing, etc.
You, on the other hand, have made a new Law that forbids any action taken to insure "doing everything God demands".

...in the hope that doing that makes you righteous.

That is the important part of the argument you are leaving off. This is not a prohibition against obeying the commands of God, but rather a prohibition against obeying the commands of God in order to become righteous before God.

Repentance from sin...outlawed.
Baptism in the name of Jesu Christ for the remission of sins...outlawed.

...for the purpose of becoming righteous.

That is the work that is outlawed.

How about asking for the gift of the Holy Ghost?...Outlawed?
Don't hearing and believing also fit your "outlawed" parameters?

In your list only 'believing' solicits the only measure of righteousness that will get you into the kingdom of God- Christ's righteousness. That righteousness - the perfect righteousness of God himself- can only be received as a free gift of God's grace through believing to the person who is humble enough to acknowledge that's the only righteousness that will meet the requirements of a perfectly righteous God.

Unfortunately you have bought the false "sit on your hands" gospel.

It's only a sit-on-your-hands gospel insofar as receiving the only standard of righteousness God will accept- the righteousness that Christ's sacrifice of perfect obedience worked for us on our behalf and which is given to us As a free gift of God's grace. That is the Sabbath rest from work that a person must enter into to enter into the kingdom of God.