Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Mungo]

God is not a liar.
If He gives you His righteousness, you are righteous.

Exactly. But do not Protestants believe that God just credits righteousness to some account, but doesn't actually make the persons righteous?

 

[Mungo]

If you just read the emboldened parts it will summarize the difference between how Catholics view justification and Luther's revelation of justification:

(emphasis mine)

The prevailing teaching of the Church was “infused grace,” or the grace God puts in the sinner so that he might become righteous. The Christian life and faith was thus heavily focused upon obedience and behavior; it was a “gradual healing process” in which the sinner “starts to become” righteous as “God creates a new will in man so that he begins to fulfill the Law.” [3] In other words, they held that Christ and the grace of God make salvation a possibility for the believer. At the final judgment God will decide if the Christian has used and done justice to God’s gift of grace.[4]

the prevailing understanding of the day was that God’s grace merely gave man the ability to become righteous before God and faith was the active work of the believer who improved and progressed in his standing before God by his obedience and behavior. Luther’s breakthrough was that God justifies the sinner not by giving him the ability to become righteous but by crediting the holiness, obedience, and goodness of Christ to him as righteousness.

From:

Luther's Breakthrough in Romans - Lutheran Reformation

After years of much prayer, meditation, and struggle, Luther discovered the true meaning of God’s Word: “Then finally God had mercy on me, and I began to understand that the righteousness of God is a gift of God by which a righteous man lives, namely faith."

lutheranreformation.org

Basically, Catholics use God's grace to gradually produce the righteousness that they hope will be sufficient for them to be saved at the final judgment.

Meanwhile, Luther's revelation from the scriptures was that the righteousness that the believer receives that will save him at the final judgment is the imputed righteousness of Jesus himself, not worked for or gradually developed in the believer, but given to him as a free gift of his grace when they first believe.

Have today's Catholics adopted Luther's view of justification and abandoned the righteousness of their works as the source of justification? From talking to Catholics online I don't think so. But I think they will tell you they have when you ask them directly about it.

Hopefully, now, you can see why I say Catholicism is a subtle and deceptive works gospel.

I quote from James Akin's article on the topic.

This is sometimes a difficult concept for Protestants to grasp since they have heard so many sermons about righteousness being an all or nothing thing that they have trouble understanding the concept of how righteousness can grow. This is one of the things that keeps them boxed into a two-fold understanding of righteousness. However, the problem is solved when one grasps the concept of actual righteousness, which is not a one-dimensional but a two-dimensional concept.

The first dimension of actual righteousness is its level of purity, which we might refer to as the quality of the righteousness. When one becomes a Christian and is justified, one receives totally pure actual righteousness. There is no admixture of sin or unrighteousness in the righteousness God gives one. Thus in this sense one is made just as righteous as Christ, because the level of purity in Christ's righteousness and ours is the same.

However, from this point of initial justification one's righteousness begins to grow during the course of the Christian life. This is the hard part for Protestants to understand since they will ask, "But if we are already made totally pure, how can our righteousness grow from there?" The answer is where the second dimension of actual righteousness comes in. Righteousness does not continue to grow in the first dimension; once total purity has been received, it is not possible for righteousness to grow in that dimension. One cannot go beyond total purity in the quality of righteousness, so righteousness grows in its second dimension—its quantity.

Even though when we first came to God we were made totally righteous in the sense that we became totally pure, we have not yet done any good works, for these are made possible only by God's grace after justification. The righteousness God have given us may be totally perfect in quality but it is not yet totally perfect in quantity. We may be just as righteous as Christ in the sense that the righteousness God has given us is just as pure as Christ's, but it is not as extensive as Christ's because we have not done as many good works as Christ. The tiny little good works we do in our lives—works wrought only by the grace God himself gives us—in no way compare to the huge, overwhelming, infinite good works of Christ, such as his death on the cross. So while we may have just as much righteousness as Christ in terms of its quality (total purity, by God's grace), we do not have just as much righteousness as Christ in terms of its quantity.

It is in terms of the quantity of righteousness that rewards are given in heaven, and thus because Christ has a greater quantity of righteousness than we do, he also has a correspondingly greater reward.

You don't have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven. There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven. One is saved the moment one is initially justified. The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God's grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place—repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism.

People try to make the Catholic message sound complex, but it's really simple: "Repent, believe and be baptized; then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess. Period."—even a five year old child can understand that. All the exegesis and infrastructure of catholic soteriology I am giving in this work is strictly not necessary, any more than the exegesis and infrastructure found in Protestant soteriology books is either. From a Catholic perspective, repentance, faith, and baptism are just as easy to get across in an evangelistic appeal as they are for Protestants; in fact, they are easier since one doesn't have to explain, "Okay, repentance and faith are necessary, but baptism isn't, but it's still really important, and so you need to do it, okay?" On the Catholic view, the message of the elements we have to preach is much simpler: Repent, believe, and in the saving waters, receive the righteousness of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

If you just read the emboldened parts it will summarize the difference between how Catholics view justification and Luther's revelation of justification:

(emphasis mine)

The prevailing teaching of the Church was “infused grace,” or the grace God puts in the sinner so that he might become righteous. The Christian life and faith was thus heavily focused upon obedience and behavior; it was a “gradual healing process” in which the sinner “starts to become” righteous as “God creates a new will in man so that he begins to fulfill the Law.” [3] In other words, they held that Christ and the grace of God make salvation a possibility for the believer. At the final judgment God will decide if the Christian has used and done justice to God’s gift of grace.[4]

the prevailing understanding of the day was that God’s grace merely gave man the ability to become righteous before God and faith was the active work of the believer who improved and progressed in his standing before God by his obedience and behavior. Luther’s breakthrough was that God justifies the sinner not by giving him the ability to become righteous but by crediting the holiness, obedience, and goodness of Christ to him as righteousness.

From:

Luther's Breakthrough in Romans - Lutheran Reformation

After years of much prayer, meditation, and struggle, Luther discovered the true meaning of God’s Word: “Then finally God had mercy on me, and I began to understand that the righteousness of God is a gift of God by which a righteous man lives, namely faith."

lutheranreformation.org

Basically, Catholics use God's grace to gradually produce the righteousness that they hope will be sufficient for them to be saved at the final judgment.

Meanwhile, Luther's revelation from the scriptures was that the righteousness that the believer receives that will save him at the final judgment is the imputed righteousness of Jesus himself, not worked for or gradually developed in the believer, but given to him as a free gift of his grace when they first believe.

Have today's Catholics adopted Luther's view of justification and abandoned the righteousness of their works as the source of justification? From talking to Catholics online I don't think so. But I think they will tell you they have when you ask them directly about it.

Hopefully, now, you can see why I say Catholicism is a subtle and deceptive works gospel.

I don't like to say this because it sounds prideful,
But here's the thing:

I know a monk, they study and pray and read all day long.

I have a priest friend that reads his bible in Greek, taught Greek in the East, speaks about 6 languages, is a theologian, and now lives here.

I have another priest friend that is just a priest but is conservative and trustworthy for doctrine.
He once had a slight run in with the Bishop, his boss.

Know another priest but he's very pastoral and cannot be trusted for theology.

Know 2 deacons, one a friend.

Now, unless they're all lying, I Think I know what cagholicism teaches.

You should forget about learning from Luther and use the CCC, Papal writings or the New Advent Encyclopedia, but you won't like that because it's too deep.

I find the language to be slightly different, as I've mentioned.

Will post again when I'm at the computer.

Oh. I SPECIFICALLY asked the monk, Fra Lorenzo, years ago when I was studying with him, if I could know right now that I am saved.

He said: Yes. If you're at the foot of the cross.

A monk: If he's also a priest, which this one is, priests go to them for confession besides theological questions.

What do you think he meant by his answer?

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly. But do not Protestants believe that God just credits righteousness to some account, but doesn't actually make the persons righteous?

No. Protestants do not believe this.
Some off the deep end believe they could even sin all they want to and still be saved, but this is not the teaching of mainline protestantism.
We believe in an ongoing process called sanctification but in Catholicism its known as ongoing justification.

I'm sorry to say that you cannot learn about protestantism from posters.

Ditto for catholicism.
So much misinformation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I quote from James Akin's article on the topic.

This is sometimes a difficult concept for Protestants to grasp since they have heard so many sermons about righteousness being an all or nothing thing that they have trouble understanding the concept of how righteousness can grow. This is one of the things that keeps them boxed into a two-fold understanding of righteousness. However, the problem is solved when one grasps the concept of actual righteousness, which is not a one-dimensional but a two-dimensional concept.

The first dimension of actual righteousness is its level of purity, which we might refer to as the quality of the righteousness. When one becomes a Christian and is justified, one receives totally pure actual righteousness. There is no admixture of sin or unrighteousness in the righteousness God gives one. Thus in this sense one is made just as righteous as Christ, because the level of purity in Christ's righteousness and ours is the same.

However, from this point of initial justification one's righteousness begins to grow during the course of the Christian life. This is the hard part for Protestants to understand since they will ask, "But if we are already made totally pure, how can our righteousness grow from there?" The answer is where the second dimension of actual righteousness comes in. Righteousness does not continue to grow in the first dimension; once total purity has been received, it is not possible for righteousness to grow in that dimension. One cannot go beyond total purity in the quality of righteousness, so righteousness grows in its second dimension—its quantity.

Even though when we first came to God we were made totally righteous in the sense that we became totally pure, we have not yet done any good works, for these are made possible only by God's grace after justification. The righteousness God have given us may be totally perfect in quality but it is not yet totally perfect in quantity. We may be just as righteous as Christ in the sense that the righteousness God has given us is just as pure as Christ's, but it is not as extensive as Christ's because we have not done as many good works as Christ. The tiny little good works we do in our lives—works wrought only by the grace God himself gives us—in no way compare to the huge, overwhelming, infinite good works of Christ, such as his death on the cross. So while we may have just as much righteousness as Christ in terms of its quality (total purity, by God's grace), we do not have just as much righteousness as Christ in terms of its quantity.

It is in terms of the quantity of righteousness that rewards are given in heaven, and thus because Christ has a greater quantity of righteousness than we do, he also has a correspondingly greater reward.

You don't have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven. There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven. One is saved the moment one is initially justified. The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God's grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place—repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism.

People try to make the Catholic message sound complex, but it's really simple: "Repent, believe and be baptized; then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess. Period."—even a five year old child can understand that. All the exegesis and infrastructure of catholic soteriology I am giving in this work is strictly not necessary, any more than the exegesis and infrastructure found in Protestant soteriology books is either. From a Catholic perspective, repentance, faith, and baptism are just as easy to get across in an evangelistic appeal as they are for Protestants; in fact, they are easier since one doesn't have to explain, "Okay, repentance and faith are necessary, but baptism isn't, but it's still really important, and so you need to do it, okay?" On the Catholic view, the message of the elements we have to preach is much simpler: Repent, believe, and in the saving waters, receive the righteousness of God.

Ditto for Protestantism.
It's called SANCTIFICATION.

 

[GodsGrace]

Unfortunately, Wesley changed his belief that whoever is reborn of God's seed lives perfectly sinless, before he died.

Why is it unfortunate?
He realized the truth.

 

[JLB]

If we have just been "cleansed of all sin", (1 John 1:7), we can say we have no sin.
Thanks be to God !

Yes, I agree, if we have been cleansed of all sin, then we are free from sin.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


The point is, those who walk in the light are the ones who are cleansed of all sin.



JLB

 

[Mungo]

No. Protestants do not believe this.
Some off the deep end believe they could even sin all they want to and still be saved, but this is not the teaching of mainline protestantism.
We believe in an ongoing process called sanctification but in Catholicism its known as ongoing justification.

I'm sorry to say that you cannot learn about protestantism from posters.

Ditto for catholicism.
So much misinformation.

It's difficult to know what a particular Protestant actually believes because there is such a wide variety of beliefs on any topic.

 

[JLB]

Consider Jesus' audience, Jews of the OT.
They were not yet aware of freedom from sin.
Anyone who comes to Christ was "lost", but will be welcomed with loving arms if they repent .
Thanks be to God !

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16


Jesus was teaching the Church, the leaders of His Church, His disciples, how to deal with a brother who sins.


Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:15-20


Anyone who simply reads this passage can see Jesus was teaching the principles of God’s kingdom to His disciples.


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22




JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm sorry to say that you cannot learn about protestantism from posters.

That's because Protestantism is not a denomination.
There are various denominations within Protestantism, but Protestantism itself is not a denomination.
Protestantism is everything that isn't Catholic.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No. Protestants do not believe this.
[...]
We believe in an ongoing process called sanctification but in Catholicism its known as ongoing justification.

Correct.
I'm not aware of a Protestant denomination that doesn't understand that Christians enter into the process of becoming more and more in practice what God has declared them to be legally.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You should forget about learning from Luther and use the CCC, Papal writings or the New Advent Encyclopedia, but you won't like that because it's too deep.

I will never use the Catholic church to learn about Christianity.

They believe the righteousness by which you qualify for heaven is the righteous behavior that God works in you in this life. They think the wine and the bread turn into the literal physical blood and body of Christ. A distorted and unreasonable myth they concocted because they're sure that's the only way one can fulfill Christ's words that one must eat his body and drink his blood. And they have exaggerated and exploited the role of Mary in the gospel to the point of blatant mythological idolatry.

So, no, I won't be consulting Catholicism to learn the truth about Christianity.

And you are right, their long bloviated explanations are mind numbing. No thanks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I quote from James Akin's article on the topic.

This is sometimes a difficult concept for Protestants to grasp since they have heard so many sermons about righteousness being an all or nothing thing that they have trouble understanding the concept of how righteousness can grow.

I don't think there is a single denomination within Protestantism that doesn't understand that God grows his people up into the holy behavior we have been set apart to grow up into.

We differ from Catholics in that we know that the righteous behavior that God affects in our lives is not the righteousness that God requires to enter into heaven. Only perfect righteousness can do that, and the only perfect righteousness that exists is the perfect righteousness of Christ, credited to our account as a free gift through faith in him, not through the performance of rituals and works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, from this point of initial justification one's righteousness begins to grow during the course of the Christian life. This is the hard part for Protestants to understand since they will ask, "But if we are already made totally pure, how can our righteousness grow from there?"

No, Protestants don't ask that, lol.

The concept of sanctification is well understood among Protestants.
We know the difference between being 100% legally righteous because our sins are continually forgiven and do not remain to make us anything less than 100% guilt free in God's eyes, and gradually growing up into the righteous behavior that God has set us apart to grow up into.

 

[Mungo]

Correct.
I'm not aware of a Protestant denomination that doesn't understand that Christians enter into the process of becoming more and more in practice what God has declared them to be legally.

Can you clarify this for me.
When you say "Christians enter into the process of becoming more and more in practice what God has declared them to be legally", you mean that Protestants are growing into becoming righteous.

 

[Mungo]

I don't think there is a single denomination within Protestantism that doesn't understand that God grows his people up into the holy behavior we have been set apart to grow up into.

We differ from Catholics in that we know that the righteous behavior that God affects in our lives is not the righteousness that God requires to enter into heaven. Only perfect righteousness can do that, and the only perfect righteousness that exists is the perfect righteousness of Christ, credited to our account as a free gift through faith in him, not through the performance of rituals and works.

What do you mean by "credited to our account"

 

[Mungo]

No, Protestants don't ask that, lol.

The concept of sanctification is well understood among Protestants.
We know the difference between being 100% legally righteous because our sins are continually forgiven and do not remain to make us anything less than 100% guilt free in God's eyes, and gradually growing up into the righteous behavior that God has set us apart to grow up into.

I don't understand what you are sating with that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no admixture of sin or unrighteousness in the righteousness God gives one.

There is the perfect right standing of Christ with God that gets legally credited to our account when we believe and trust in God's forgiveness. And there is the matter of the less than perfect righteousness of our behavior. We are very cognizant of this difference. It's empirically observable. It's not a myth. It's a reality. We are indeed, both, righteous in Christ, yet unrighteous in deed. But, surely, less and less unrighteous in deed as we grow up into Christ's righteousness.

So, we understand that the righteousness of Christ is one thing, and the righteousness of our behavior is going to be another. And what we definitely understand is that we don't dare try to approach God as you Catholics do in the supposed safety of our own righteousness, no matter how inspired by God's grace it is, for that falls far short of the 100% gold standard of perfection that God requires. And so Protestants rely and depend on Christ's righteousness to protect us in God's presence, not the righteousness of our faithful works.

 

[Mungo]

There is the perfect right standing of Christ with God that gets legally credited to our account when we believe and trust in God's forgiveness. And there is the matter of the less than perfect righteousness of our behavior. We are very cognizant of this difference. It's empirically observable. It's not a myth. It's a reality. We are indeed, both, righteous in Christ, yet unrighteous in deed. But, surely, less and less unrighteous in deed as we grow up into Christ's righteousness.

So, we understand that the righteousness of Christ is one thing, and the righteousness of our behavior is going to be another. And what we definitely understand is that we don't dare try to approach God as you Catholics do in the supposed safety of our own righteousness, no matter how inspired by God's grace it is, for that falls far short of the 100% gold standard of perfection that God requires. And so Protestants rely and depend on Christ's righteousness to protect us in God's presence, not the righteousness of our faithful works.

And you accuse Catholics of bloviated explanations!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What do you mean by "credited to our account"

3“Abraham believed God (about the promise of a son), and it was credited (or counted) to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3

When we believe in and receive God's forgiveness our unrighteousness is wiped away by that forgiveness and God deposits a perfect and complete measure of His righteousness in our heavenly 'righteousness' account.

22 ...this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Romans 3:22

It's not the righteousness of our faithful works that gets put in to that account. It's God's perfect righteousness being credited to our account before and apart from any consideration of our works. And it is upon that deposit of righteousness, God's righteousness gifted to us through faith in the cross, that we are declared to be in good standing with God, prepared to meet Him in judgement in the perfect righteousness of Christ, not our inadequate righteousness, at the end of the age.