Bible Study Does James 2 Teach Works for Salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

And you accuse Catholics of bloviated explanations!

Look at how short my explanation was!

I've learned that the gospel is so simple you don't need long, hard to understand explanations that require you to study them like a college textbook.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't understand what you are sating with that.

When God forgives us through our faith in the cross he sees no sin, because it's been forgiven, and so he sees us in the sinless perfect righteousness of Christ.

33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.
Romans 8:33-34

Catholic theology, on the other hand, says God sees the righteousness of your righteous rituals and deeds done in faith as God's grace is infused in you, making you more and more righteous, preparing you more and more to meet God in judgement at the end of the age.

Meanwhile, we Protestants rest comfortably in God's perfect and complete righteousness gifted to us through our faith in his forgiveness. A forgiveness that Christ continually intercedes for on our behalf in heaven and which keeps our heavenly account free of the debt of sin.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You don't have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven. There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven. One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Please explain what Luther was rebelling against in this Catholic explanation of justification.

 

[Mungo]

3“Abraham believed God (about the promise of a son), and it was credited (or counted) to him as righteousness.” Romans 4:3

When we believe in and receive God's forgiveness our unrighteousness is wiped away by that forgiveness and God deposits a perfect and complete measure of His righteousness in our heavenly 'righteousness' account.

22 ...this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Romans 3:22

It's not the righteousness of our faithful works that gets put in to that account. It's God's perfect righteousness being credited to our account before and apart from any consideration of our works. And it is upon that deposit of righteousness, God's righteousness gifted to us through faith in the cross, that we are declared to be in good standing with God, prepared to meet Him in judgement in the perfect righteousness of Christ, not our inadequate righteousness, at the end of the age.

What heavenly righteous account?
Where is that in scripture?

BTW - still waiting for a reply to post #1375

 

[Mungo]

Please explain what Luther was rebelling against in this Catholic explanation of justification.

Oh go on. Do tell me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh go on. Do tell me.

I'm asking you to tell me what it is in what Akins wrote that Catholics believe that Luther rebelled against. For some reason it seems now the Catholic church agrees with Luther. But if I'm wrong about that you can explain it to me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What heavenly righteous account?
Where is that in scripture?

It's the ledger account in God's mind where, when you were an unbeliever, the debt of your sin used to be ascribed. Colossians 2:14

For the believer that debt of sin got paid and a perfect deposit of God's righteousness was put in it's place.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you clarify this for me.
When you say "Christians enter into the process of becoming more and more in practice what God has declared them to be legally", you mean that Protestants are growing into becoming righteous.

Protestants grow in righteous behavior (2 Peter 1:8 NIV), not in their righteous standing before God because that has already been established as perfect and complete when they were credited the righteous standing of Christ when they believed in and received God's forgiveness.

21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[Hopeful]

Exactly. But do not Protestants believe that God just credits righteousness to some account, but doesn't actually make the persons righteous?

If they are still lying and thieving, they are not righteous.

 

[Hopeful]

Why is it unfortunate?
He realized the truth.

His change of heart meant he went back to serving sin.
Jesus' truth can free men from committing sin. (John 8:32-34)

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, I agree, if we have been cleansed of all sin, then we are free from sin.

So why can't one say it?

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Both parts of his sentence are correct, though the cleansing starts the walk.

The point is, those who walk in the light are the ones who are cleansed of all sin.

They are the ones who "have been" cleansed of sin.
There is no sin/darkness in God/light.
Confess, and get cleansed by the blood of Christ.
And walk in the light for the rest of your life.

 

[Hopeful]

The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

Thanks be to God !

Jesus was teaching the Church, the leaders of His Church, His disciples, how to deal with a brother who sins.

What was "His church" called?
Where did it meet?
He had no church until He was resurrected from the dead.

Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:15-20

Brother Jews, or brother humans, but not brothers in Christ as nobody was "in Christ" until baptism into Christ was made available.
That didn't happen till after Jesus was raised from the dead.

Anyone who simply reads this passage can see Jesus was teaching the principles of God’s kingdom to His disciples.

Agreed, and to all who were within earshot.

Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22

Do likewise.

 

[Hopeful]

No, Protestants don't ask that, lol.

The concept of sanctification is well understood among Protestants.
We know the difference between being 100% legally righteous because our sins are continually forgiven and do not remain to make us anything less than 100% guilt free in God's eyes, and gradually growing up into the righteous behavior that God has set us apart to grow up into.

If one is still sinning, they are not righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If they are still lying and thieving, they are not righteous.

It seems you're still basically the works righteousness Catholic you say you used to be.

We are righteous, despite our unrighteous failings, because all our failings are instantly forgiven by the blood continually interceding on our behalf on the altar in heaven. So, because of His forgiveness, God always sees us in guiltless perfection with no guilt of sin remaining for him to see us otherwise. It's impossible to level a charge of unrighteousness against the person who is continually forgiven by the intercesserary blood of Christ in heaven:

33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.
Romans 8:33-34 BSB

You think you're righteous because God makes it so you don't sin anymore. But if you'll just read the passage above we are perfectly righteous before God and free from accusation, not because we don't sin anymore, but because the everlasting effectiveness of Christ and His Sacrifice in heaven continually intercedes on our behalf and forgives the debt of our sin.

24But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them. Hebrews 7:24-25 BSB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one is still sinning, they are not righteous.

It's apparent that your inability to reconcile being perfectly righteous before God and being imperfectly righteous in behavior has caused you to subscribe to the false doctrine of sinless perfection.

You just need to understand that you are sinlessly perfect in God's eyes because he continually forgives your sin so that no guilt of sin remains before him to condemn you as being unrighteous, and so he sees you as perfectly righteous.

What I have described is the spiritual reality of the righteousness that comes from God by faith and by which we live taught in our Bibles. Some just aren't going to believe it and will instead revert to and rely on the natural understanding of a gospel of works righteousness to prepare themselves for the coming judgment.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, I agree, if we have been cleansed of all sin, then we are free from sin.

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7


The point is, those who walk in the light are the ones who are cleansed of all sin.



JLB

1 John 1:7
The blood of Christ CLEANSES us from all sin.
It's ongoing. Not a one time event.

I'd have to check to make sure this is always the case when cleansing is discussed. But it is in line with NT teaching that sinning continues....but a life of sin does not.

 

[Hopeful]

It seems you're still basically the works righteousness Catholic you say you used to be.

Not anymore, as the catholics aren't righteous.
For that matter, neither are the protesters of catholicism.
They only differ in their accommodations for sin.

We are righteous, despite our unrighteous failings,

Sounds like a lie.
The "righteous" unrighteous?

because all our failings are instantly forgiven by the blood continually interceding on our behalf on the altar in heaven. So, because of His forgiveness, God always sees us in guiltless perfection with no guilt of sin remaining for him to see us otherwise. It's impossible to level a charge of unrighteousness against the person who is continually forgiven by the intercesserary blood of Christ in heaven:

"God heareth no sinners..." (John 9:31)
Jesus said the truth would free you from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.
So whatever it is you offer here, is not the truth Jesus referred to.

33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.
Romans 8:33-34 BSB

You think you're righteous because God makes it so you don't sin anymore.

That is the definition of righteous...isn't it?
And He "remade me" so I don't sin anymore.
It is called "rebirth".
Thanks be to God !

But if you'll just read the passage above we are perfectly righteous before God and free from accusation, not because we don't sin anymore, but because the everlasting effectiveness of Christ and His Sacrifice in heaven continually intercedes on our behalf and forgives the debt of our sin.

It is because "we" don't sin anymore.

24But because Jesus lives forever, He has a permanent priesthood. 25Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them. Hebrews 7:24-25 BSB

He is available any time you are ready to turn from sin.
He is the Advocate for those who have yet to turn from sin. (1 John 2:1)

 

[Hopeful]

It's apparent that your inability to reconcile being perfectly righteous before God and being imperfectly righteous in behavior has caused you to subscribe to the false doctrine of sinless perfection.

I call your narrative the "split-personality gospel".
Reborn of God's seed, but bringing forth the fruit of the devil.

You just need to understand that you are sinlessly perfect in God's eyes because he continually forgives your sin so that no guilt of sin remains before him to condemn you as being unrighteous, and so he sees you as perfectly righteous.

Things like love and appreciation for what Jesus did for me, and others, prevents me from loving anything more than I love God.

What I have described is the spiritual reality of the righteousness that comes from God by faith and by which we live taught in our Bibles. Some just aren't going to believe it and will instead revert to and rely on the natural understanding of a gospel of works righteousness to prepare themselves for the coming judgment.

You have so much faith in that doctrine, but can't permanently repent of sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not anymore, as the catholics aren't righteous.
For that matter, neither are the protesters of catholicism.
They only differ in their accommodations for sin.

Sounds like a lie.
The "righteous" unrighteous?

"God heareth no sinners..." (John 9:31)
Jesus said the truth would free you from committing sin, in John 8:32-34.
So whatever it is you offer here, is not the truth Jesus referred to.

That is the definition of righteous...isn't it?
And He "remade me" so I don't sin anymore.
It is called "rebirth".
Thanks be to God !

It is because "we" don't sin anymore.

He is available any time you are ready to turn from sin.
He is the Advocate for those who have yet to turn from sin. (1 John 2:1)

Wow Hopefull,
Nobody is righteous but you.
Do you belong to a church denomination?
Is this what is taught?
Great.

A house divided....

 

[Hopeful]

1 John 1:7
The blood of Christ CLEANSES us from all sin.
It's ongoing. Not a one time event.

How is that any different than the OT Jew's religion of ongoing sin?
Were it true, the sacrificial animals were the ones who got "saved".

I'd have to check to make sure this is always the case when cleansing is discussed. But it is in line with NT teaching that sinning continues....but a life of sin does not.

Paul wrote..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Paul wrote..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

Grape seeds cannot bring forth figs.
God's seed cannot bring forth liars, adulterers. or thieves.