Does Jesus Death cover ALL sins?

[Orion]

Oh so do you just pick and choose to reject the things in the Bible that doesn't make sense to you or that you just simply don't agree with?? :-?

I don't see the entire bible as being inspired, so sure.

 

[Orion]

Nature points people to the Creator and Sustainer, not Christ. But to those who continue to seek the Creator, I believe God will reveal himself in Christ. There is also all sorts of speculation that can be made, such as Christ may reveal himself to those who are at the point of death and give them an opportunity. Jesus does reveal himself to people in dreams and this is how many Muslims have come to Christ.

In the end, God is just and will deal with everyone justly.

To this we have no idea and no way to know. However, I believe that ONLY a good God WILL deal justly. And to me, having people burn for eternity for an act that (as far as eternity goes) is an insignificant blip, is not justice.

 

[Vic C.]

Everyone who has ever lived has NOT had a chance to accept Christ!! Regardless of Romans 1:20! :-?

The fact is, when the early church started. . . . . and several centuries after that even, . . . .there would have been NO way for them to "go into all the world and preach the gospel" in time. Millions would die only knowing what was around their village and in walking distance.

The only way to get to Heaven is to accept Jesus into your heart. Nature is NOT going to give a person that notion just by looking at it.

Note that, that always should mean, going out into the known world.

Free said, "Nature points people to the Creator and Sustainer, not Christ."

Free is correct. Orion, you know me by now. In cases of where there is a concern for those who point out the ones who live and die and never heard, I always point to Romans 2:

14 For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing,
16 in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ. (LITV)

 

[Orion]

Well, I guess this is one of those "agree to disagree" moments. :roll:

Thanks for the exchange.

 

[Orion]

Answer this hypothetical.....

A baby is born in . . . Tibet. This baby is raised and goes through life having never done anything wrong. Never steals, lies, kills, dishonors anyone, etc. . . .never commits one sin, but never hears about Jesus, and dies in a freak accident at the age of 27.

Where does this person spend eternity.

 

[Heidi]

Answer this hypothetical.....

A baby is born in . . . Tibet. This baby is raised and goes through life having never done anything wrong. Never steals, lies, kills, dishonors anyone, etc. . . .never commits one sin, but never hears about Jesus, and dies in a freak accident at the age of 27.

Where does this person spend eternity.

Jesus tells us in Luke 12:47-48. He also tells us in John 3:5. None but Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. So no one can enter heaven without the Holy Spirit because only the Spirit is eternal, not the flesh.

Heaven is not an entitlement just because people were born. It is a gift from God and a gift-giver and a creator always has the choice of who his recipients are and what purposes he has for his creation. Always.

 

[mondar]

Answer this hypothetical.....

A baby is born in . . . Tibet. This baby is raised and goes through life having never done anything wrong. Never steals, lies, kills, dishonors anyone, etc. . . .never commits one sin, but never hears about Jesus, and dies in a freak accident at the age of 27.

Where does this person spend eternity.

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

If one never sins, he does not need a savior. Can you show me this hypothetical person anywhere? Orion, can you say that you have never sinned against your neighbor? Have you ever passed by a person in need of help? Of course he who is guilty of even one sin, is guilty of all.

 

[Orion]

This hypothetical isn't about me. It's about. . . .the hypothetical person in question. So, if that person never sins, then they don't need a savior? Then they go to Heaven automatically.

 

[jgredline]

Orion
The bible clearly teaches that no one is good, no not one...There are none that seek after God no not one...(my paraphrase) The bible also teaches that Gods will is for everyone to be saved, yet they are not..So how does one reconcile this??...Simple...God gave everybody a conscience and a mind to think...There will not be a soul who has lived who will not have been called by the Holy Spirit....How does this happen...For those who have never heard the Gospel or anything about Jesus like the folks in some far away Island where missionaries have not even went, Paul tells us in

Romans 2

2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

by nature do the things in the law: Gentiles who do not have the Law still do such things as honor their parents, which indicates that they believe in a basic moral law. They know within their hearts that there is a difference between right and wrong. This "law of conscience" serves as a judge to them in place of Moses law.

The Law is not inscribed in our hearts, but the work of the law is written on our hearts. The Law of Moses was engraved in stone, and there is a similar moral law within every person.

According to the gospel Paul preached, God will judge not only people's actions, but their motives, or secrets, as well (see 1 Cor. 4:5).

So the answer to your Question is this...That person who was born a sinner will go to Hell for eternal torment ''unless'' he is clothed in the righteousness of Christ.....

 

[Vic C.]

Answer this hypothetical.....

A baby is born in . . . Tibet. This baby is raised and goes through life having never done anything wrong. Never steals, lies, kills, dishonors anyone, etc. . . .never commits one sin, but never hears about Jesus, and dies in a freak accident at the age of 27.

Where does this person spend eternity.

Again, did "they" follow what was written upon their hearts as in the verses above? That is what God will use for or against them during the Great White Throne Judgement.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Notice it doesn't suggest all who are judged will find their names NOT written the the Book.

 

[Orion]

So we are saved outside of works, but the other are judged based on works? We still sin, even when in Christ. The only difference is that we came to the place of knowing and accepting Christ. That is the only difference between the Christian and the non-Christian.

So, you can have a Christian who really isn't as good of person as a non-Christian, and yet they are rewarded in the end, based upon a decision. :-?

I'm not sure if I'm all that excited about a religion that damns people based upon a decision made on earth, while having no evidence of the fact, and being told that they have to accept it all "on faith" . . . . . . when that other religion claims that THEY are 100% right. :-?

I also don't see there being a "true love" if someone is disgusted enough to not want them around. In other words, just because someone is a flawed human, they can't be in God's presence. How does that make sense?

 

[mondar]

So, you can have a Christian who really isn't as good of person as a non-Christian, and yet they are rewarded in the end, based upon a decision.

Your missing the point. What you are saying is like this in the sight of God. Who is the better person, the murderer or the rapist.

When we stand before the brightness of Gods glory, and we see his brilliant perfection, we will not be saying "I was at least better then the guys next to me." We will fall down before him and all recognize our own guilt. No one will say we were at least better then the next guy.

There is no better or worse in the human race, we are all cut of the same cloth, we all have an evil nature, and are sinful. I will admit that each one of us has our own preference for a certain kind of sin, and some sin is less destructive then other sins, but there is no one who will stand before God as righteous. We might compare ourselves to each other, but when we stand before God and compare ourselves to him, we will all be terribly guilty.

I'm not sure if I'm all that excited about a religion that damns people based upon a decision made on earth, while having no evidence of the fact, and being told that they have to accept it all "on faith" . . . . . . when that other religion claims that THEY are 100% right. :-?

I would agree that the mere claim of correctness is insufficient, but is there anywhere you can demonstrate Christianity to be false?

I also don't see there being a "true love" if someone is disgusted enough to not want them around. In other words, just because someone is a flawed human, they can't be in God's presence. How does that make sense?

I agree, there will be no flawed humans in God's presence. We are acquited (declared innocent-- justified) of sin on the basis that Christ substutionary payment of our penalty. This does not change us. The change will come, either at death, or in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. We will stand before God justified, and also perfect.

I would sum up the difference between the Christian and non-Christian as this. Our hope is in the Lord, yours is in yourself.

 

[Vic C.]

So, what's the alternative? God simply condemns those in all of history who have never heard the Gospel? Are you willing to accept a hyper-Calvinist position that God purposely creates some humans for the express pupose of cnndemning them for all of eternity? Or worse yet; believe people are not responsible at all because they were "made" that way... and adopt a Universal Salvation position? I don't believe that, partly based on the Scriptures I have quoted.

I'm at a loss; Javier and I gave you Scripture that shows God's plan for those never hear, yet follow their good conscience.

 

[Vic C.]

I agree, there will be no flawed humans in God's presence. We are acquited (declared innocent-- justified) of sin on the basis that Christ substutionary payment of our penalty. This does not change us. The change will come, either at death, or in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. We will stand before God justified, and also perfect.

I would sum up the difference between the Christian and non-Christian as this. Our hope is in the Lord, yours is in yourself.

Very well put, mondar. :angel:

 

[jgredline]

Mondar and Vic...
Great post...Both of them speak of nothing but Gods truth....as contained in the scriptures.

 

[Orion]

Your missing the point. What you are saying is like this in the sight of God. Who is the better person, the murderer or the rapist. . . . .

No, that's precisely the point. We are all sinners, yet due to an earthly decision, some are rewarded. The wrong decision causes eternal punishment. . . . . . . .for a decision!

I would agree that the mere claim of correctness is insufficient, but is there anywhere you can demonstrate Christianity to be false?

Many other religions completely believe that they are correct and would ask YOU to demonstrate where THEY are wrong. I'm not saying they are, myself, but they believe it whole heartedly.

I agree, there will be no flawed humans in God's presence. We are acquited (declared innocent-- justified) of sin on the basis that Christ substutionary payment of our penalty. This does not change us. The change will come, either at death, or in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. We will stand before God justified, and also perfect.

I would sum up the difference between the Christian and non-Christian as this. Our hope is in the Lord, yours is in yourself.

I don't see how we are going to be able to maintain that "sinless existence" unless we are drastically changed into something that isn't even US anymore. Our flaws are what make us up. Without them, we may just be no different than the angels and the plan to have "men to commune with" will be rather in vain.

 

[Orion]

So, what's the alternative? God simply condemns those in all of history who have never heard the Gospel? Are you willing to accept a hyper-Calvinist position that God purposely creates some humans for the express pupose of cnndemning them for all of eternity? Or worse yet; believe people are not responsible at all because they were "made" that way... and adopt a Universal Salvation position? I don't believe that, partly based on the Scriptures I have quoted.

I'm at a loss; Javier and I gave you Scripture that shows God's plan for those never hear, yet follow their good conscience.

I would prefer and alternative that doesn't have people burning for all eternity based upon some decision they made a billion years ago when they were once alive on the earth!!! :roll:

If it is separation from God, fine. Let them reside in some existence where God is not and let them to their own natures. But to basically say, "either accept me or suffer the consequences" isn't the Love I would expect out of Unconditional Love that God is supposed to have.

 

[mondar]

We are all sinners, yet due to an earthly decision, some are rewarded. The wrong decision causes eternal punishment. . . . . . . .for a decision!

We are punished for much more then a bad decision, we are punished for the trespasses of our rebellion. I would challenge the thesis that our salvation is a reward for a correct decision. Salvation is not something earned by a correct decision. That is an interesting analogy of "free will" theology. Let me ask you a question.

If the governor of my state has 10 death row inmates who deserve to die, and he pardoned 5, has the governor done anything unjust? We can discuss the justice of God more, but please answer that question.

Many other religions completely believe that they are correct and would ask YOU to demonstrate where THEY are wrong. I'm not saying they are, myself, but they believe it whole heartedly.

Orion, you seem to be avoiding my question, were is Christianity wrong. You response is to ask a question that is so huge I would not know where to start. You ask where are all the other world religions are in error. Do you want me to tell you this in one short paragraph (just kidding). Although I did ask you where you see error in Christianity, and I guess you are telling me where. You dont believe Christian doctrine has a concept of a just and loving God.

I don't see how we are going to be able to maintain that "sinless existence" unless we are drastically changed into something that isn't even US anymore. Our flaws are what make us up. Without them, we may just be no different than the angels and the plan to have "men to commune with" will be rather in vain.

I think this is a complaint that if God somehow changes our nature, we cease to be human. Yet, Christ himself had both a divine nature and was fully human. The point is that a sinless future does not mean a lack of humanity.

There is more... A seed is planted in the ground. Did the seed change? Certainly, it germinates, and grows into a plant. Does the seed grow into a giant seed? No, it changes. Does this mean that neither a tomato seed or a full grown tomato are not genetically tomato? So will our resurrection be. As the seed, we are sown in corruption, but we are raised in incorruption. We are sown mortal, but we are raised to immortality. Yet we will still be human, we will still be ourselves, just better.

 

[Heidi]

So, what's the alternative? God simply condemns those in all of history who have never heard the Gospel? Are you willing to accept a hyper-Calvinist position that God purposely creates some humans for the express pupose of cnndemning them for all of eternity? Or worse yet; believe people are not responsible at all because they were "made" that way... and adopt a Universal Salvation position? I don't believe that, partly based on the Scriptures I have quoted.

I'm at a loss; Javier and I gave you Scripture that shows God's plan for those never hear, yet follow their good conscience.

Romans 9:18, "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and hardens whom he wants to harden." Those weren't Calvin's words, they are God's word.

Romans 9:22-23 explains why.

 

[Heidi]

So we are saved outside of works, but the other are judged based on works? We still sin, even when in Christ. The only difference is that we came to the place of knowing and accepting Christ. That is the only difference between the Christian and the non-Christian.

So, you can have a Christian who really isn't as good of person as a non-Christian, and yet they are rewarded in the end, based upon a decision. :-?

I'm not sure if I'm all that excited about a religion that damns people based upon a decision made on earth, while having no evidence of the fact, and being told that they have to accept it all "on faith" . . . . . . when that other religion claims that THEY are 100% right. :-?

I also don't see there being a "true love" if someone is disgusted enough to not want them around. In other words, just because someone is a flawed human, they can't be in God's presence. How does that make sense?

Jesus tells us, "No one is good but God alone." What makes any of us good is the power of the Holy Spirit, not our human choice of righteousness. And we still can't boast because we were chosen before the creation of the world. "Therefore, as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord." Amen!