Does Jesus Death cover ALL sins?

[mondar]

That's just Christian doctrine/dogma. There have been BILLIONS of people who have died having never even heard of Jesus. All they know is their village, finding food for today, creating babies, keeping from being overrun by another village, etc. Someone who was born and raised in a Buddhist town only knows about that religion. How is justice served them when they stand in front of Jesus and say, "Who?? I've never even heard of you!", just before being ushered to Hell for "not accepting Jesus before they died".

I find a true loving God to be much more compassionate than that.

Romans 1:20 gives us the reason that men are "without excuse."
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Men might not know of the death of Christ, but they can see two things about God in nature.
1---his eternal power
2---his Godhead (deity)

Because this revelation in nature has been rejected by men who have not heard about Christ they are "without excuse."

A person might ask, what if the native in the jungle receives Gods revelation in nature? I dont know what to say, then God in his sovereignty would be obligated to give him more revelation. He might have to send a missionary then. We could theorize about this all day, but one thing is clear, all men are "without excuse."

 

[mondar]

Oh my apologies, I thought you were saying that the Bible was not inspired. But I see that you stated it as a question like (what... the bible is not inspired??)

No prob... :D

Pheonix? Did you ever hear of the Pheonix Reformed Baptist Church?

 

[Orion]

Romans 1:20 gives us the reason that men are "without excuse."
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Men might not know of the death of Christ, but they can see two things about God in nature.
1---his eternal power
2---his Godhead (deity)

Because this revelation in nature has been rejected by men who have not heard about Christ they are "without excuse."

A person might ask, what if the native in the jungle receives Gods revelation in nature? I dont know what to say, then God in his sovereignty would be obligated to give him more revelation. He might have to send a missionary then. We could theorize about this all day, but one thing is clear, all men are "without excuse."

Yes, yes. I am all too familiar with Romans 1:20 . . . which I see as one of those "less than inspired" texts. There is NO WAY, save some freak occurence, that a villager would look at nature and come to the only way in which a man is supposed to be saved, that being, believing in Jesus, whom God sent to earth to pay for the villager's sin. It is just a way to justify them going to Hell without having heard the gospel message and be able to say, "well they should have just COME to that conclusion by looking at that mountain". If that was THEIR only way, then it is completely unnecessary for Christians to evangelize. Everyone in those heathen countries have their chance. They just haven't looked at those stars long enough to see that God sent His son to die for their sins. :-?

I apologize for sounding harsh, but either that verse has another meaning, or it is completely man's own words.

 

[mondar]

Yes, yes. I am all too familiar with Romans 1:20 . . . which I see as one of those "less than inspired" texts. There is NO WAY, save some freak occurence, that a villager would look at nature and come to the only way in which a man is supposed to be saved, that being, believing in Jesus, whom God sent to earth to pay for the villager's sin.

I agree that natives cannot look at nature and see Christ and his death, but they are nevertheless guilty according to Romans 1:20. They are guilty because they rejected knowledge of Gods power and diety (Godhead). So rejection of the knowledge God gave them leaves them guilty before him.

I may have confused things. I also addressed a hypothetical objection. The hypothetical objection is "what if the native receives Gods revelation found in nature of his power and diety?" The answer to this hypothetical objection is that they would not be guilty, but would still need the message of Christ. God would then seem obligated to make sure that the native who receives his reveltion innature, hears of Christ. Maybe that is why missionaries go deep into the jungle, or penetrate far flung lands. In Gods sovereignty, he found a native that received his revelation in nature.

I think romans 1:20 stands as a greatly inspired text (along with the rest of the bible).

 

[sisterchristian]

That's just Christian doctrine/dogma. There have been BILLIONS of people who have died having never even heard of Jesus. All they know is their village, finding food for today, creating babies, keeping from being overrun by another village, etc. Someone who was born and raised in a Buddhist town only knows about that religion. How is justice served them when they stand in front of Jesus and say, "Who?? I've never even heard of you!", just before being ushered to Hell for "not accepting Jesus before they died".

I find a true loving God to be much more compassionate than that.

Well that is really not true bcause would a God of Love throw them into eternal torture without giving them a chance to be saved? Every person who has ever lived has had a chance to be saved. The Bible says, "for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men... Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, God has shown it to them. Since the creation of the world his invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." (rom.1:18-20) the Bible is very clear that the heathen who have never accepted Jesus Christ are lost and going to hell. While they may have not had as much "light" as those who sit in a Gospel-preaching church, they know of God from creationand realize that there must be a creator. And what do they know about the creator? That he is all powerfull to have created the world, and that he has the power of choice; he had knowledge to create the world, and chose to do so. The heathen know the creator exists but refuse to believe in him. Again Paul tells us about the lost: "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law, by nature do the things in the Law, these, although not having the Law, are a Law to themselves, who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing.... in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to the Gospel (Rom.2:14-16) This verse says that the unsaved will be judge by their conscience. In their hearts they know what is right, but they have refused to do what is right. They are judged by their knowledge of "right." so every person who has ever lived has had the chance to be saved. Jesus "was the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world" (John 1:9). this light is their understanding of God, and their obligation to him. A man who has never heard the Gospel, yet has done wrong, knows he has broken the Law and that he is condemned. It is contrary to the Bible to say that some men did not have an opportunity to seek God. Every man has had the opportunity-- granted, some more than others, but all have had the knowledge of God. No man can say in HELL, "I didn't know there was a God; I didn't know what was right to do. I didn't have an opportunity." Rom.1:18-32 tells how the heathen became godless and rebellious against the truth. When people turn from God in unbelief, they give themselves over to Lust and self-satisfaction. Their knowledge of God and their knowledge that what they do is wrong become the basis of their condemnation.

 

[Orion]

I'm sorry mondar and sisterchristian, and absolutely no offense to you, but I reject the notion of Romans 1:20 that nature has any power to cause someone to assume, based upon it, that of Gods power and diety (Godhead).

But if they recognize some diety, they may have called it Vishnu, Ra, Diana, etc. Would they be wrong just because they got the NAME wrong? :-? I guess that's a question that we really don't have the ability or even the right to answer, I suppose.


And I have to say it again (about the concept of "Hell"). It is a paradox to have a place called "Hell" where God is not present in a universe where God is omnipresent.

 

[sisterchristian]

I'm sorry mondar and sisterchristian, and absolutely no offense to you, but I reject the notion of Romans 1:20 that nature has any power to cause someone to assume, based upon it, that of Gods power and diety (Godhead).

But if they recognize some diety, they may have called it Vishnu, Ra, Diana, etc. Would they be wrong just because they got the NAME wrong? :-? I guess that's a question that we really don't have the ability or even the right to answer, I suppose.


And I have to say it again (about the concept of "Hell"). It is a paradox to have a place called "Hell" where God is not present in a universe where God is omnipresent.

Well reject away than!! And about Hell, well since that is the final destination place for those that reject God, Hell is not only a place of eternal burning, it is also a place where one is SEPERATED from God, therefore why would God be in a place where everyone there has already rejected him ,they already made their choice and there is no turning back once your gone! Also if it is in scripture then why wouldn't we have the right to answer it as that God doesn't Lie! and just because it is hard for some people to fathom, doesn't mean it isn't true!

 

[Orion]

My point is, where a being is omnipresent, there can BE no place where said being cannot be and still be omnipresent.

You're either omnipresent, or you're not.

It's why I don't fully agree with the Christian doctrine of Hell. That doesn't mean I reject God. I just reject what man has interpreted and place into Canon stating that God said it. It isn't a rejection of God but of the errancy of men.

 

[jgredline]

And I have to say it again (about the concept of "Hell"). It is a paradox to have a place called "Hell" where God is not present in a universe where God is omnipresent.

Actually God is in Hell...He is omnipresent...How can God be in Hell? Simple, because he is everyplace....Will God feel the pain of the flames that never go out???? No, he is God....What about all those souls that will be crying out to him????Will God hear them??? I don't believe so...Why? Because God is Holy and with out the righteousness of Jesus bearing witness for us / being our mediator, being covered by the blood of the lamb, God can't be in the precess of sin...so I see no problem and no contradiction here...Why????

Because God is God and I am not...I don't need to nor can I comprehend or even begin to understand God....I don't need to...

What I know is what matters...Jesus died for me...He is my savior....I know enough about him through his word, and will spend all eternity getting to know him better...How cool is that

 

[Orion]

Thank you for your input, jgredline. Will souls "feel fire"?

 

[jgredline]

Thank you for your input, jgredline. Will souls "feel fire"?

Yes, the folks who will be resurrected for their meeting at the great white thrown judgment will indeed feel the flames for all eternity according to Matt 25: 41-46 and Rev 20 if memory serves me right...

 

[sisterchristian]

Yes, the folks who will be resurrected for their meeting at the great white thrown judgment will indeed feel the flames for all eternity according to Matt 25: 41-46 and Rev 20 if memory serves me right...

Yes your memory does serve you right! ;-)

 

[Orion]

Does anyone else not see the injustice of that? It's one thing for a soul, with no pain receptors, to be in a place like that, but to resurrect them with bodies that can FEEL PAIN for ALL of eternity, . . . . . . only because they didn't believe the right religion when they were alive for roughly 80 years??? :-? Is that justice to send people into that existence for a lack of belief while in a physical earthly body?? That person would definitely believe that Jesus was who he said he was then!

:-? That just seems. . . . . . well, kind of evil to me. :-?


I don't know how I could exist knowing that maybe even someone I knew was burning in Hell at that moment. And a billions years later, I would still know that that person, . . . maybe even a friend, . . . was STILL burning with pain and agony!!! The same could be said about those I didn't know.

Another billion years in Heaven --> :smt090 <-- Another billion years in heaven. . .

 

[dancing queen]

Hell isn't a punishment for not believing the right religion. Hell is punishment for sinning.

Justice is us all going to hell. None of us deserve to enter heaven because we are not holy and pure. So this isn't injust, it is just. In many ways I think its more injust that we are let into heaven than that people burn in hell.

I agree about not being able to live knowing that people are burning in hell, but the bible says in heaven there will be no crying, so I assume I won't know about it or something or at least won't be able to comprehend.

 

[Orion]

Hell isn't a punishment for not believing the right religion. Hell is punishment for sinning.

So by being fortunate enough to be born in the RIGHT country, at the RIGHT time. . . . .and being lucky enough to be introduced to Christianity before you die, . . . .you get to go to Heaven, even though you're a sinner?

Justice is us all going to hell. None of us deserve to enter heaven because we are not holy and pure. So this isn't injust, it is just. In many ways I think its more injust that we are let into heaven than that people burn in hell.

Can you post some scriptural passages about how all of us deserve Hell and are just lucky enough to be let into Heaven. I'd like to research that.

So, you get to Heaven based on luck, even though you're a sinner. In what way do you think we will be able to retain this "sinlessness" in Heaven? Angels rebelled again God while IN GOD'S PRESENCE!! What makes you think that you will be able to keep from sinning? And if you can, what makes you think that an "unsaved person" couldn't keep from sinning in Heaven as well? Can you imagine spending an eternity in Heaven in fear of doing anything wrong??

I agree about not being able to live knowing that people are burning in hell, but the bible says in heaven there will be no crying, so I assume I won't know about it or something or at least won't be able to comprehend.

So, we will have our memories wiped. Or will we just not care about those people anymore because we "have arrived".

 

[jgredline]

Hell isn't a punishment for not believing the right religion. Hell is punishment for sinning.

Justice is us all going to hell. None of us deserve to enter heaven because we are not holy and pure. So this isn't injust, it is just. In many ways I think its more injust that we are let into heaven than that people burn in hell.

I agree about not being able to live knowing that people are burning in hell, but the bible says in heaven there will be no crying, so I assume I won't know about it or something or at least won't be able to comprehend.

Great Post !!! and full of Gods truth..

 

[sisterchristian]

Hell isn't a punishment for not believing the right religion. Hell is punishment for sinning.

Justice is us all going to hell. None of us deserve to enter heaven because we are not holy and pure. So this isn't injust, it is just. In many ways I think its more injust that we are let into heaven than that people burn in hell.

I agree about not being able to live knowing that people are burning in hell, but the bible says in heaven there will be no crying, so I assume I won't know about it or something or at least won't be able to comprehend.

Umm... With all due respect, People don't go to hell because they sinned, unless it's the unpardonable sin of rejecting Jesus Christ up until death. But other than that we all can be saved while we are alive. If we went to hell because of our sins... well than I think it would be safe to say that we are all hell bound! The whole reason for Jesus being crucified was for ALL our sins, he took all our sins upon him and paid the penalty with his very life so that we all would have an open gateway into heaven. and salvation is a free gift, all we have to do is accept it! You see hell wasn't intended for us, it was intended for Satan and his Demons, but for those that choose to reject Christ and his invitation for salvation, well than they they obviously won't be going to heaven, but the choice they have made will bring them the same fate as Satan and his demons! So God doesn't send anyone there, they send themselves there when they reject him. And BTW everyone who as ever lived has had the chance to accept Christ.

 

[Orion]

Everyone who has ever lived has NOT had a chance to accept Christ!! Regardless of Romans 1:20! :-?

The fact is, when the early church started. . . . . and several centuries after that even, . . . .there would have been NO way for them to "go into all the world and preach the gospel" in time. Millions would die only knowing what was around their village and in walking distance.

The only way to get to Heaven is to accept Jesus into your heart. Nature is NOT going to give a person that notion just by looking at it.

 

[sisterchristian]

Everyone who has ever lived has NOT had a chance to accept Christ!! Regardless of Romans 1:20! :-?

The fact is, when the early church started. . . . . and several centuries after that even, . . . .there would have been NO way for them to "go into all the world and preach the gospel" in time. Millions would die only knowing what was around their village and in walking distance.

The only way to get to Heaven is to accept Jesus into your heart. Nature is NOT going to give a person that notion just by looking at it.

Oh so do you just pick and choose to reject the things in the Bible that doesn't make sense to you or that you just simply don't agree with?? :-?

 

[Free]

The only way to get to Heaven is to accept Jesus into your heart. Nature is NOT going to give a person that notion just by looking at it.

Nature points people to the Creator and Sustainer, not Christ. But to those who continue to seek the Creator, I believe God will reveal himself in Christ. There is also all sorts of speculation that can be made, such as Christ may reveal himself to those who are at the point of death and give them an opportunity. Jesus does reveal himself to people in dreams and this is how many Muslims have come to Christ.

In the end, God is just and will deal with everyone justly.