David says...
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
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Does man have free will to choose salvation?
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Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Yes, the Bible teaches that we are all born sinners with sinful, selfish natures. Unless we are born again by the Spirit of God, we will never see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).
Humanity is totally depraved; that is, all of us have a sinful nature that affects every part of us (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 7:14). The question is, where did that sinful nature come from? Were we born sinners, or did we simply choose to become sinners sometime after birth?
We are born with a sinful nature, and we inherited it from Adam. “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people” (Romans 5:12). Every one of us was affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18). We are all sinners, and we all share the same condemnation, because we are all children of Adam.
Scripture indicates that even children have a sin nature, which argues for the fact that we are born sinners. “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child” (Proverbs 22:15). David says, “Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). “Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies” (Psalm 58:3).
Before we were saved, “we were by nature deserving of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). Note that we deserved God’s wrath not only because of our actions but because of our nature. That nature is what we inherited from Adam.
We are born sinners, and for that reason we are unable to do good in order to please God in our natural state, or the flesh: “Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God” (Romans 8:8). We were dead in our sins before Christ raised us to spiritual life (Ephesians 2:1). We lack any inherent spiritual good.
No one has to teach a child to lie; rather, we must go to great lengths to impress upon children the value of telling the truth. Toddlers are naturally selfish, with their innate, although faulty, understanding that everything is “mine.” Sinful behavior comes naturally for the little ones because they are born sinners.
Because we are born sinners, we must experience a second, spiritual birth. We are born once into Adam’s family and are sinners by nature. When we are born again, we are born into God’s family and are given the nature of Christ. We praise the Lord that “to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent . . . but born of God” (John 1:12–13).
Gotquestions.org
Humanity is totally depraved; that is, all of us have a sinful nature that affects every part of us (Isaiah 53:6; Romans 7:14). The question is, where did that sinful nature come from? Were we born sinners, or did we simply choose to become sinners sometime after birth?
We are born with a sinful nature, and we inherited it from Adam. “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people” (Romans 5:12). Every one of us was affected by Adam’s sin; there are no exceptions. “One trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18). We are all sinners, and we all share the same condemnation, because we are all children of Adam.
Scripture indicates that even children have a sin nature, which argues for the fact that we are born sinners. “Folly is bound up in the heart of a child” (Proverbs 22:15). David says, “Surely I was sinful at birth, / sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). “Even from birth the wicked go astray; / from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies” (Psalm 58:3).
Before we were saved, “we were by nature deserving of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). Note that we deserved God’s wrath not only because of our actions but because of our nature. That nature is what we inherited from Adam.
We are born sinners, and for that reason we are unable to do good in order to please God in our natural state, or the flesh: “Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God” (Romans 8:8). We were dead in our sins before Christ raised us to spiritual life (Ephesians 2:1). We lack any inherent spiritual good.
No one has to teach a child to lie; rather, we must go to great lengths to impress upon children the value of telling the truth. Toddlers are naturally selfish, with their innate, although faulty, understanding that everything is “mine.” Sinful behavior comes naturally for the little ones because they are born sinners.
Because we are born sinners, we must experience a second, spiritual birth. We are born once into Adam’s family and are sinners by nature. When we are born again, we are born into God’s family and are given the nature of Christ. We praise the Lord that “to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent . . . but born of God” (John 1:12–13).
Gotquestions.org
Tenchi
Member
Yes, I already addressed this verse a few posts ago.
Did not see this.
Yes the Arminian interpretation.
So man is basically born "good".
There are way to many scriptures to refute that man is born without sin and that he is inherrantly good.
Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”
Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Romans 1:28-31 - And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were… foolish
Ephesians 4:17-18 - you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.
Jeremiah 10:7-8,14 - among all the wise ones of the nations and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. They are both stupid and foolish… Every man is stupid and without knowledge
Matthew 15:19 - “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” (c.f. Mark 7:21-23)
Genesis 6:5 & 8:21 - The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually… from his youth.
Proverbs 10:20 - the heart of the wicked is of little worth.
Proverbs 28:26 - Whoever trusts in his own [heart] is a fool
It would be great to see some Scripture that says man is basically good and born sinless.
Are you saying that I wasn't chosen by God to fulfil His will ?
Careful now...
They love and serve sin.
They all have the chance to repent of sin.
Few choose to do so.
Ofc when the baby matures the sin desire will too. But they have not done sin until they do their 1st sin.
Re: How did a 1482 North American Indian choose to be saved given he never heard of God or Christ?
Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. .... which shows no one seeks God so the only way left to be saved is for God to seek you. Also the following verses says Gentiles were without hope before Christ which contradicts you theory Eph. 2:13 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Lots of verses point to Christ as exclusive way to God i.e. John 3:18
Again I ask, how does a child dying during birth exercise FREE WILL? (You said everyone can choose)
There is no mention of salvation in Romans 1:18-22 .... they are without excuse but no mention about what to do about it
Romans 3:11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. .... which shows no one seeks God so the only way left to be saved is for God to seek you. Also the following verses says Gentiles were without hope before Christ which contradicts you theory Eph. 2:13 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
Lots of verses point to Christ as exclusive way to God i.e. John 3:18
Again I ask, how does a child dying during birth exercise FREE WILL? (You said everyone can choose)
It's not a matter of what God is capable of; rather, what He has chosen to do according to scripture.
Yes , exactly it Tenchi !
This " linchpin" verse so many times quoted is so far from the mark to prove sin nature as a condition of the baby in a crib .
For those following along if you have not already read the article at this link please go read it and read it out loud .
Find out the history of Psalm 51:5 .
Nitzevet, Mother of David The bold voice of silence
Everyone out here should be highly offended at your post here. Let me tell you exactly how your 1482 Indian could be saved. God makes himself known to all people. We know this intuitively. Do you know the verse I am quoting this from? All people, even the natives in geographically isolated places, know that there is a God, that he is to be worshiped, and that we are accountable to him. Can you guess now where I am getting this? It shouldn't be too hard.
Why you see God as an evil being is beyond me. Remember, God is not willing that any should perish. Do you think it would be too hard for God to respond to this Indian who wants to please him?
Tenchi
Member
We are born naturally self-interested and, as a result of the Fall, this God-given self-interest is unregulated by the Holy Spirit. This leads inevitably to sin, as the Bible indicates. No one, though, is born guilty of having committed sin. Obviously.
As a human matures, s/he becomes conscious of moral right and wrong because God has "written His law on their heart" (Romans 2:14-15) When, in this condition, they first violate that Moral Law, then it is they become guilty of sin. Progressively, as a person persists in violating their conscience in unregulated pursuit of their own self-interest, they become more and more hardened in sin, their conscience seared, blind and deaf to God's Light and Truth, as well. Obviously, no one begins life in this condition, however.
Oh? What of spiritually-unregenerate Job?
Job 1:1
1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil.
And what of the unsaved Roman Centurion, Cornelius?
Acts 10:1-2
1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort,
2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.
These fellows don't sound "totally depraved" to me...
We all have a natural, necessary self-interest that is unregulated by the Holy Spirit. In this condition, we all follow our natural self-interest to a progressively inordinate, sinful degree. This is the "source" of our sin, caused by the Fall of Adam and Eve in Eden.
But where does Paul write in this verse "and so Adam's sin came upon all people, making each of them guilty of sin at birth"? Nowhere. Sin entered the world, not people. And, as a result of Adam's sin, death came upon all people as God promised it would (Genesis 2:16; 3:19), our lives now having a very finite length.
Yes, we are all affected by Adam's sin. But not, I think, in the way you've proposed. Only the pain of childbirth, physical labor upon cursed ground, death and sin-producing spiritual separation from God come out of the Fall, not a sin-guiltiness right out of the womb.
Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.
How were "the many made sinners"? By the spiritual separation from God that resulted from the Fall, causing the disregulation of the natural and appropriate self-interest of human beings. By this means, all human beings are eventually brought into condemnation before God.
Actually, the verse doesn't say sin is bound up in the heart of a child, only foolishness, or silliness (i.e. folly).
Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 51:5 (NASB)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 51:5 (NKJV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
Psalm 58:3 (NASB)
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
Psalm 58:3 (ESV)
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.
Psalm 58:3 (NKJV)
3The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
Inasmuch as this is poetry, it behooves the reader to be careful about taking it strictly literally. Consider the very next verse:
Psalm 58:4 (ESV)
4 They have venom like the venom of a serpent, like the deaf adder that stops its ear,
How, exactly, can an infant, incapable of both moral thought or action, "go astray" from birth? Simple reason requires that a non-literal interpretation of Psalm 58:3 be made - especially in light of the highly figurative nature of the Psalm.
Ephesians 2:3 (ESV)
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
What does it mean that sinners are "by nature children of wrath"? The verse doesn't say babies are born guilty of sin. The verse doesn't explicate the mechanisms at work in a person that make them a child of wrath by nature. This verse certainly doesn't at all rule out the view I take of the Fall and its effects upon humanity, in particular the absence of the control of the Holy Spirit over natural and necessary human self-interest.
Yes, but that nature is not one of sin-guiltiness from the womb but of an unregulated natural self-interest that, being unregulated, leads inevitably to inordinate and sinful selfishness. This is all I can see from Scripture that our "sin nature" would be.
No, we are born separated spiritually from God and thus without the control of the Spirit. This results in sin but not straight out of the womb, for obvious reasons.
??? See the two contrary scriptural examples to this statement above.
"Dead," especially in the NT speaks of separation, not utter inability.
Yes, see above.
Indeed, a Jewish "legend".
That proves nothing.
Can you show from Scripture where man is born sinless?
The Bible does not teach that Job was sinless at birth.
The Scriptures you post say nothing about being sinless. That is an assumpton on your part.
Sccripture has much to say how totally depraved humans are.
Psychology teaches that man is basically good, this is not a systematic Biblical worldview.
Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity,.... This cannot be understood of any personal iniquity of his immediate parents; since this respects his wonderful formation in the womb, in which both he and they were wholly passive, as the word here used is of that form; and is the amazing work of God himself, so much admired by the psalmist, Psa_139:13; and cannot design any sinfulness then infused into him by his Maker, seeing God cannot be the author of sin; but of original sin and corruption, derived to him by natural generation: and the sense is, that as soon as ever the mass of human nature was shaped and quickened, or as soon as soul and body were united together, sin was in him, and he was in sin, or became a sinful creature;
and in sin did my mother conceive me; by whom cannot be meant Eve; for though she is the mother of all living, and so of David, yet could not, with any propriety, be said to conceive him: this only could be said of his immediate parent, not even of his next grandmother, much less of Eve, at the distance of almost three thousand years. Nor does the sin in which he was conceived intend any sin of his parents, in begetting and conceiving him, being in lawful wedlock; which acts cannot be sinful, since the propagation of the human species by natural generation is a principle of nature implanted by God himself; and is agreeably to the first law of nature, given to man in a state of innocence, "increase and multiply", Gen_1:28. Marriage is the institution of God in paradise; and in all ages has been accounted "honourable in all, when the bed is undefiled", Heb_13:4. Nor does it design his being conceived when his mother was in "profluviis", of which there is no proof, and is a mere imagination, and can answer no purpose; much less that he was conceived in adultery, as the contenders for the purity of human nature broadly intimate; which shows how much they are convicted by this text, to give into such an interpretation of it, at the expense of the character of an innocent person, of whom there is not the least suggestion of this kind in the Holy Scriptures; but on the contrary, she is represented as a religious woman, and David valued himself upon his relation to her as such, Psa_86:16. Besides, had this been the case, as David would have been a bastard, he would not have been suffered to enter into the congregation of the Lord, according to the law in Deu_23:2; whereas he often did with great delight, Psa_42:4. Moreover, it is beside his scope and design to expose the sins of others, much less his own parents, while he is confessing and lamenting his own iniquities: and to what purpose should he mention theirs, especially if he himself was not affected by them, and did not derive a corrupt nature from them? Nor is the sin he speaks of any actual sin of his own, and therefore he does not call it, as before, "my" iniquity and "my" sin; though it was so, he having sinned in Adam, and this being in his nature; but "iniquity" and "sin", it being common to him with all mankind. Hence we learn the earliness of the corruption of nature; it is as soon as man is conceived and shapen; and that it is propagated from one to another by natural generation; and that it is the case of all men: for if this was the case of David, who was born of religious parents, was famous for his early piety, and from whose seed the Messiah sprung, it may well be concluded to be the case of all. And this corruption of nature is the fountain, source, and spring of all sin, secret and open, private and public; and is mentioned here not as an extenuation of David's actual transgressions, but as an aggravation of them; he having been, from his conception and formation, nothing else but a mass of sin, a lump of iniquity; and, in his evangelical repentance for them, he is led to take notice of and mourn over the corruption of his nature, from whence they arose. The Heathens themselves affirm, that no man is born without sin (c).
(c) "Nam vitiis nemo sine nascitur". Horat. Sermon. l. 1. Satyr. 3.
Psalms 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Behold, I was shapen - Hebrew chowlaalªtiy (H2342); literally, brought forth amidst labour pains.
In iniquity. In Adam the whole human race fell, so that his sin was propagated by generation; for as the punishment affects all his race, even those who have not followed him in actual sin (Rom_5:12-14), as infants, so must his sin (Job_14:4). This is what is termed original or birth-sin-an hereditary taint, whereby from our birth we are inclined to evil. 'In every person born into this world, it deserveth God's wrath and damnation.' "Iniquity" [ `aawown (H5771)] is always used of imputable guilty." Compare Gen_5:3, contrasted with "Adam begat a son in his own likeness, after his image;" whereas "in the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him." Compare Gen_8:21; Eph_2:3.
And in sin did my mother conceive me - not referring to the sin of his mother, but of himself, I had the germ of sin from my birth, and even from my very conception (Psa_58:3.)
So back on topic.
Born in sin or not, can man choose salvation?
Born in sin or not, can man choose salvation?
Intuitively ... meaning you do not have scripture to back it up. It's an unfounded opinion based on how you feel God must act. I prefer to use scripture. The following verses show one must know of Christ to be saved and prove the 1482 N.A. Indian is 'toast' where 'toast' means 'in hell':
- John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].
- John 14:5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going; so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the [only] Way [to God] and the [real] Truth and the [real] Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
- John 12:48 Whoever rejects Me and refuses to accept My teachings, has one who judges him; the very word that I spoke will judge and condemn him on the last day.
- John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
- Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”
Agreed, even the demons know there is a God. This knowledge is insufficient for salvation. When you use scripture to prove a point you should use pertinent verses. In this case the subject matter would include what is needed to be saved like Romans 10:9-10 ... .show give me a verse that says one is saved by knowing there is a God.
Nope .... show give me a verse that says one is saved by knowing there is a God.
Apologize or I will report you. I think your statement is a matter of you not being able to express yourself ... but if you truly believe what you wrote I will report you; otherwise, I will forgive you and save the administrators time.
You don't understand the context of the verse. See https://www.gotquestions.org/not-willing-for-any-to-perish.html
Excellent response.
No .... but I can show scripture to show we are born was sin:
18 A good tree [Christ] cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree [Adam] bear good fruit.
.... but you already listed numerous verses to prove your point
Yes, if the Spirit regenerates him first.