Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

It is Gods book. Does He need to show you that?

Does He also need to show you the names in the Lambs book of life?

Grace and peace to you.

You need to learn to write with grace and peace. Try reading what you write as though it were written to you. For example, instead of "does he also need to show you the names in the Lambs book of life" or "Does He need to show you that?" which is quite insulting, you should have written, "it is in one of God's books. Don't you agree?" That is the simple non-insulting answer. God has shown me a lot but I have not been to Heaven or any place in the spiritual world although I understand others have been there and seen the lambs book of life.

Did you see in that passage I gave you, that we can defy the events written in the books of days of our lives? I will give it again.

Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool— why die before your time?

So, it is possible to die before it is written in the book that you should die. If that is possible, missing anything else written there can also be possible, including salvation. Can you give an answer from the theology you hold to be true?

 

[brightfame52]

It's a funny thing. I look back over my life and recall having a very strong faith in God as only a child can. Mind you, I didn't understand the good news of how our Lord died, but how disheartening it is for some false teachers to try to pull me away from what I know is right. What I know I lived.

No disrespect, but we not discussing your life, our lives arent Gods word. Now naturally, no man seeks after God, the True God of the bible. No man naturally has a understanding of the True God, doesnt even have a desire for God. Now granted, by nature we may seek a god, a higher power, a god of our own understanding, but that leads to death, the old proverb says Prov 14:12

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Thats why there is 0ver 4000 religions in the world, because man by nature is religous and believes in a god, just not the True God.

 

[electedbyhim]

I see that calvinism has taught you to add to people’s words and what the Bible says to suit what you want it/them to say but didn’t. That’s an interesting fruit of calvinism.

You are too deep in calvinism to see.

You are joking right? You just added to his word above and then tell us it hurts you when his word is misrepresented??? I mean read what you yourself write. Why doesn’t that hurt you??

Ah, the modern worldly non-apology apology. No admitting wrong was done and enjoying the added pleasure of feeling you power over others such that your very words hurt as well as being able to admire the humility you think you just expressed. Three pleasures for the price of one. You apologize if we (mistakenly of course) THINK you wanted to hurt others.

Let me assure you, you have no power whatsoever to hurt me. None. That you insult people instead of patiently and with grace and peace answer is clear. Your intention is to deflect, not hurt.

We know your heart too.

You are fooling yourself as to your goodness. You cannot answer with grace and peace but instead put others down.

Yeah, right.

Btw, I am not in the least angry but have learned from Jesus to call a spade a spade. He has taught me to say the truth. My culture taught me to lie or wait until I was angry to finally blurt out the truth. I say it as soon as I recognize it and feel it ought to be said. If you read his words, that’s exactly how Jesus spoke. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Where did I add to His word?

And there you are.

Romans 2:3 But do you presume this, O man—who passes judgment on those who practice such things and does the same—that you will escape the judgment of God?

I thought only God knows the heart.

What does it mean to answer with Grace? Is it your replies back to me.

Because I do not reply as you want me to I am mean.

I have re read my posts. I can come off as straight forward and blunt. You do not have to accept my apology and can think it is fake. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

Not to be surprised. I’m better educated than some. Some can’t even write in full sentences with punctuation. This indicates high school was not completed. Doesn’t mean they are stupid, just lack the education so they can communicate is a form best for others.

From your own condescending posts, you look down on those who are not schooled because they cannot structure a sentence or have proper grammar. Who really cares and that proves nothing. Why is that even an issue?

Please read what you write. Most of your posts and replies come from your own understanding and not Scripture. If you do not accept that the Doctrines of Grace are Biblical truth, that is your belief. Those that believe this, understand that they did nothing in salvation because they were dead spiritually.

The only free will the unregenerate have is to sin. Anything they do that the world deems good is motivated by pride.

I never once said I was good, the fact is, I have said and will say that I am a wretched sinner. I do not pretend to be who I am not.

You are so full of your own self-righteousness that you are blinded to many truths.

I have struck a nerve. your post shows your anger.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Where did I add to His word?

The Bible says many people sought the Lord. That is what it says. There isn't a single word about God changing them or anything close to that. You changed that and added that bit to the Bible because your theology says it must be so. the Bible does not support that theology so you have a choice, embrace the Bible or your theology.

And there you are.

Romans 2:3 But do you presume this, O man—who passes judgment on those who practice such things and does the same—that you will escape the judgment of God?

I have no idea why you copied this verse.

I thought only God knows the heart.

Not at all. Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit. It is possible to see the heart of a person, their motive and values when you have enough opportunity to see them making decisions and responding. It is done all the time in life and is assumed that we can know the heart of another in movies and observation. Sometimes one is wrong but sometimes one is right.

What does it mean to answer with Grace? Is it your replies back to me.

Good question. Yes, it means writing words you would yourself would like to receive. Words that bless another but not flatter.

Because I do not reply as you want me to I am mean.

I have re read my posts. I can come off as straight forward and blunt. You do not have to accept my apology and can think it is fake. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

It is not an apology. It is a worldly kind of placating a troubled conscience. An apology is admitting you did wrong, not that you hurt someone, which in most cases, is untrue. You did not hurt me or likely anyone. So what is that apology for? How can you apologize for something you did not achieve? How can it be an apology if you think you did not do it?

From your own condescending posts, you look down on those who are not schooled because they cannot structure a sentence or have proper grammar. Who really cares and that proves nothing. Why is that even an issue?

No, I do not look down on others. I said that they are not stupid. But there are people who are less educated. It is pretty foolish to think this is not true and it does not mean that they are less valuable. It is just not the people you go to for information or understanding. One does not talk to the high school drop out for help in medical difficulties, for example. You go to a person educated in medicine and we are talking college. This is just wisdom. And, people who are educated, use proper grammar (some mistakes, of course) because it is a kindness to those reading what they write. The less educated do not care.

Please read what you write. Most of your posts and replies come from your own understanding and not Scripture. If you do not accept that the Doctrines of Grace are Biblical truth, that is your belief. Those that believe this, understand that they did nothing in salvation because they were dead spiritually.

We did not discuss the doctrine of grace. And I use scripture, quote scripture and sometimes do so without indicating it is scripture. I do not add to it though.

The only free will the unregenerate have is to sin. Anything they do that the world deems good is motivated by pride.

I never once said I was good, the fact is, I have said and will say that I am a wretched sinner. I do not pretend to be who I am not.

You are so full of your own self-righteousness that you are blinded to many truths.

I have struck a nerve. your post shows your anger.

Grace and peace to you.

I already said in my post that I am not angry. And no, I am afraid you struck no nerve at all. None. Not even close. You are not able to understand my words so what you think is poking me is far afield. You would have to understand my words first, which you admitted that you cannot. I, by the way, have no desire nor pleasure in poking anyone or striking a nerve in anyone. I always hope that we can keep these exchanges intellectual.

One of your team said a really nasty jab at me which I will not long forget. He/she said "no wonder you're divorced" which is meant to say something very uncomplimentary about my character and behavior such that my husband, of course, divorced a woman like me. Problem is, I am happily married for over 30 years to the same man. Neither one of us were divorced before we married and he is more attached to me than the other way around. So the poster thought they could wound me with "hitting a nerve" as you hope to do, but alas he was stabbing in the dark. I laughed. It was a new one though. I have been falsely accused of many failings (which I will not detail like FHG does) but that was a new one. So you are not likely to be able to strike a nerve at all. You do not know enough same as that poster did not know enough. You would have to understand my posts before you could strike a nerve.

 

[brightfame52]

dorthymae

The Bible says many people sought the Lord.

The scripture says none seek after God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[journeyman]

I’ve heard that children naturally believe in God. They believe God is good. But when we teach puberty, things change. We must make choices. Calvinism teaches that God does things that are not good by any stretch of the imagination. That’s why we resist it, it is to defend his name among men.

I agree. As we grow, we hear doctrines that may or may not be true. Even in a Bible college, false teaching can creep in. It happened to many scribes, pharisees and saducees, but children who believed that God is good wanted to be near him. That's why Jesus said people who have heard and learned of our Father would be drawn to him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

electedbyhim, your handle obviously indicates you are a very devoted calvinist. That’s fine. This is the Calvinist section so you are most welcome. As you can see,I am not of that persuasion. Doesn’t mean we cannot exchange thoughts.

But I’m likely not your usual opponent. I learned about calvinism from talking to many on line, once email and skype. I didn’t know any personally although a believer for over 40 years. So I learned about your type from your type, not a book and never debates, which I find odious, christians debating other christians in a public arena before an audience.

This means I actually know what you probably think. You haven’t exchanged with others of my persuasion which shows because you are wrong when you try to criticize my theology. You haven’t talked to many of us and so you present what calvinists have TOLD you what we believe. Problem is, it’s not true.

So you can learn what the opposing side really believes or maintain your strawman arguments.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I agree. As we grow, we hear doctrines that may or may not be true. Even in a Bible college, false teaching can creep in. It happened to many scribes, pharisees and saducees, but children who believed that God is good wanted to be near him. That's why Jesus said people who have heard and learned of our Father would be drawn to him.

I think a key to questioning a man’s teaching or theology is if it personally brings into question the goodness of God. The Enemy tried this in the garden and he still tries it.

Not the nature of God or what He can do or does or doesn’t. This comes from knowing Him. This is something we cannot simply learn from people anyway, at least in any depth. On that one can be charitable to ignorance. But lies against his character ought to generate warning bells.

 

[Whatever]

Interesting that you have information as to whether or not God has touched everyone. How do you come by this knowledge of what God is doing in the lives of others?

Maybe I have the gift of discernment.

 

[Whatever]

what I know is right. What I know I lived.

Homosexuals who think they are Christians say the same thing.

 

[Whatever]

Once everyone has had the chance to hear the gospel message, they can choose to reject it or accept it.

But you really believe that "everyone" has heard the gospel message? Jesus died 2,000 years ago. Billions of people have lived and died in areas where no missionary ever went.

 

[electedbyhim]

The Bible says many people sought the Lord. That is what it says. There isn't a single word about God changing them or anything close to that. You changed that and added that bit to the Bible because your theology says it must be so. the Bible does not support that theology so you have a choice, embrace the Bible or your theology.

I have no idea why you copied this verse.

Not at all. Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit. It is possible to see the heart of a person, their motive and values when you have enough opportunity to see them making decisions and responding. It is done all the time in life and is assumed that we can know the heart of another in movies and observation. Sometimes one is wrong but sometimes one is right.

Good question. Yes, it means writing words you would yourself would like to receive. Words that bless another but not flatter.

It is not an apology. It is a worldly kind of placating a troubled conscience. An apology is admitting you did wrong, not that you hurt someone, which in most cases, is untrue. You did not hurt me or likely anyone. So what is that apology for? How can you apologize for something you did not achieve? How can it be an apology if you think you did not do it?

No, I do not look down on others. I said that they are not stupid. But there are people who are less educated. It is pretty foolish to think this is not true and it does not mean that they are less valuable. It is just not the people you go to for information or understanding. One does not talk to the high school drop out for help in medical difficulties, for example. You go to a person educated in medicine and we are talking college. This is just wisdom. And, people who are educated, use proper grammar (some mistakes, of course) because it is a kindness to those reading what they write. The less educated do not care.

We did not discuss the doctrine of grace. And I use scripture, quote scripture and sometimes do so without indicating it is scripture. I do not add to it though.

I already said in my post that I am not angry. And no, I am afraid you struck no nerve at all. None. Not even close. You are not able to understand my words so what you think is poking me is far afield. You would have to understand my words first, which you admitted that you cannot. I, by the way, have no desire nor pleasure in poking anyone or striking a nerve in anyone. I always hope that we can keep these exchanges intellectual.

One of your team said a really nasty jab at me which I will not long forget. He/she said "no wonder you're divorced" which is meant to say something very uncomplimentary about my character and behavior such that my husband, of course, divorced a woman like me. Problem is, I am happily married for over 30 years to the same man. Neither one of us were divorced before we married and he is more attached to me than the other way around. So the poster thought they could wound me with "hitting a nerve" as you hope to do, but alas he was stabbing in the dark. I laughed. It was a new one though. I have been falsely accused of many failings (which I will not detail like FHG does) but that was a new one. So you are not likely to be able to strike a nerve at all. You do not know enough same as that poster did not know enough. You would have to understand my posts before you could strike a nerve.

I have no idea why you copied this verse.

Romans 2:3 But do you presume this, O man—who passes judgment on those who practice such things and does the same—that you will escape the judgment of God?

This means that what you are accusing me of, you are doing yourself.

Not at all. Jesus said to judge a tree by its fruit. It is possible to see the heart of a person, their motive and values when you have enough opportunity to see them making decisions and responding. It is done all the time in life and is assumed that we can know the heart of another in movies and observation. Sometimes one is wrong but sometimes one is right.

This applies to myself as well.

Mat 7:1 “Do not judge, so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with what measure you measure, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 “And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Mat 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Good question. Yes, it means writing words you would yourself would like to receive. Words that bless another but not flatter.

Agreed.

The less educated do not care.

I do not agree with you here.

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may abolish the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh may boast before God.

It is not an apology. It is a worldly kind of placating a troubled conscience. An apology is admitting you did wrong, not that you hurt someone, which in most cases, is untrue. You did not hurt me or likely anyone. So what is that apology for? How can you apologize for something you did not achieve? How can it be an apology if you think you did not do it?

My conscience is quite clear and not troubled. I mean with the exception of the sins I struggle with on a daily. Just like other believers.

I do not know who reads these threads and who was offended by my posts because of my straight forward bluntness. To those I apologize.

One of your team said a really nasty jab at me which I will not long forget. He/she said "no wonder you're divorced" which is meant to say something very uncomplimentary about my character and behavior such that my husband, of course, divorced a woman like me. Problem is, I am happily married for over 30 years to the same man. Neither one of us were divorced before we married and he is more attached to me than the other way around. So the poster thought they could wound me with "hitting a nerve" as you hope to do, but alas he was stabbing in the dark. I laughed. It was a new one though. I have been falsely accused of many failings (which I will not detail like FHG does) but that was a new one. So you are not likely to be able to strike a nerve at all. You do not know enough same as that poster did not know enough. You would have to understand my posts before you could strike a nerve.

That person is not of my team, I do not know them or am I responsible for their language. As to my , hitting a nerve comment. That is just my sarcasm. I have been praying on this and trying to change that about me. It is not Christ like.

So, I believe I said I did not want to debate when I came into this forum, but my sinful pride has gotten the best of me.
As I have said I have been down this path before.

How do you interpret these verses.

Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

I would like to know your thoughts on how one can choose Christ when they are spiritually dead and are hostile to God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyhim]

electedbyhim, your handle obviously indicates you are a very devoted calvinist. That’s fine. This is the Calvinist section so you are most welcome. As you can see,I am not of that persuasion. Doesn’t mean we cannot exchange thoughts.

But I’m likely not your usual opponent. I learned about calvinism from talking to many on line, once email and skype. I didn’t know any personally although a believer for over 40 years. So I learned about your type from your type, not a book and never debates, which I find odious, christians debating other christians in a public arena before an audience.

This means I actually know what you probably think. You haven’t exchanged with others of my persuasion which shows because you are wrong when you try to criticize my theology. You haven’t talked to many of us and so you present what calvinists have TOLD you what we believe. Problem is, it’s not true.

So you can learn what the opposing side really believes or maintain your strawman arguments.

No, I am a devoted Christian. I am not one into labels. I also understand you Arminian position. I will not presume to know what any person thinks, or at least try not to.

 

[Whatever]

So you have seen, grace? What color is it? I've never seen it before, just it's effects.

When did I ever say I saw grace. As for the effects of grace, what effect did it have on the Australian Aborigines for thousands of years when the Europeans finally got there and they were purely pagan?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Maybe I have the gift of discernment.

Pretty funny. I chuckled!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, I am a devoted Christian. I am not one into labels. I also understand you Arminian position. I will not presume to know what any person thinks, or at least try not to.

You’ve made two comments that show clearly you do not understand my position at all and you, who claimed you are not “into labels” just used a label. You claim you understand my position which IS what I think by definition and then say you don’t presume to know what others thinks. Are you sure you know what you think?

 

[journeyman]

Yes I agree. He paid the price for our choices. I actually was wondering how the other side would answer. I know the answer. It’s pretty interesting how others think but Whatever could only quote a link…someone else’s answer. To those who haven’t thought much about what they believe, links are a refuge.

I read that link and it has errors from its foundation, such as,

lutron (G3383), lit., "a means of loosing" (from luo, "to loose"), occurs frequently in the Sept., where it is always used to signify "equivalence." Thus it is used of the "ransom" for a life, e.g.,

But there is nothing equal between a sinner compared to our Lord Jesus.
And,

The giving of His life was the giving of His entire person, and while His death under divine judgment was alone expiatory, it cannot be dissociated from the character of His life which, being sinless, gave virtue to His death and was a testimony to the fact that His death must be of a vicarious nature.

Chrisrs' death wasn't under "Gods' judgment", because under Gods' law, taking the life of an innocent man is trangression.

This glaring heresy is the result of men sitting in judgment of God, misunderstanding his kindness and longsuffering in enduring the vile way he was treated.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Romans 2:3 But do you presume this, O man—who passes judgment on those who practice such things and does the same—that you will escape the judgment of God?

This means that what you are accusing me of, you are doing yourself.

You’re passing judgement on me. I don’t add to the Word.

This applies to myself as well.

Mat 7:1 “Do not judge, so that you will not be judged.
Mat 7:2 “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with what measure you measure, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 “And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Mat 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

I don’t add to the Word. Those who sought God, sought God…period. Nothing added.

Agreed.

I do not agree with you here.

Well I asked the poster who refused to use a little grammar so we could sort out his sentences and he said he didn’t care if others could easily read his writing.

1Co 1:26 For consider your calling, brothers, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble.
1Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may abolish the things that are,
1Co 1:29 so that no flesh may boast before God.

Well it’s a fact the Paul was highly educated and God had him write the majority of the NT. Same with Moses who wrote more books than any other one man.

My conscience is quite clear and not troubled. I mean with the exception of the sins I struggle with on a daily. Just like other believers.

I do not know who reads these threads and who was offended by my posts because of my straight forward bluntness. To those I apologize.


That person is not of my team, I do not know them or am I responsible for their language. As to my , hitting a nerve comment. That is just my sarcasm. I have been praying on this and trying to change that about me. It is not Christ like.

So, I believe I said I did not want to debate when I came into this forum, but my sinful pride has gotten the best of me.
As I have said I have been down this path before.

What do you want?

How do you interpret these verses.

Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
Rom 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

I would like to know your thoughts on how one can choose Christ when they are spiritually dead and are hostile to God.

Grace and peace to you.

Notice these people freely set their own minds on fleshly pleasures. They chose those pursuits. And those choices become habits. Now their minds are not dead. They are darkened. “Dead” is a metaphor as they still choose. I’ve heard many testimonies from people who did that for some years and were eventually sickened by it. They hungered for something more than pleasures of the flesh. This they freely chose.

Now Calvinists presume to
lay out in detail what happens in a man. What scripture says is God draws a man. It doesn’t say He changes them. But He does call or draw or move in that person with an Heavenly bidding. That man can squelch that call or pursue it.

Those scriptures do not say those who pursue the flesh canNOT talk to God, pray, seek to know if there is a God or stop setting their minds on the flesh. It says those who SET their minds on the flesh cannot. But a man can refuse to set his mind on the flesh. Then they are no longer DECIDING to pursue sin. This is where we part company because you say they cannot. These verses do not say that.

 

[journeyman]

Homosexuals who think they are Christians say the same thing.

I agree and it doesn't matter what sin people continue in,

But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 1Jn.3:17

People know when they're doing wrong and so does God,

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1Jn.3:30

 

[brightfame52]

dorthymae

Notice these people freely set their own minds on fleshly pleasures.

They have no other choice, they are in the flesh, natural men. Even religious activity, morality, honesty and so forth, are nothing but fleshly pleasures coming from the heart of the unregenerate. They freely choose what they are, what their nature craves, they are a slave to that.