Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Dorothy Mae]

Let me post this from Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of the NT on the word RANSOM.

1. lutron (G3383), lit., "a means of loosing" (from luo, "to loose"), occurs frequently in the Sept., where it is always used to signify "equivalence." Thus it is used of the "ransom" for a life, e.g., Exo_21:30, of the redemption price of a slave, e.g., Lev_19:20, of land, Lev_25:24, of the price of a captive, Isa_45:13. In the NT it occurs in Mat_20:28 and Mar_10:45, where it is used of Christ's gift of Himself as "a ransom for many." Some interpreters have regarded the "ransom" price as being paid to Satan; others, to an impersonal power such as death, or evil, or "that ultimate necessity which has made the whole course of things what it has been." Such ideas are largely conjectural, the result of an attempt to press the details of certain Old Testament illustrations beyond the actual statements of New Testament doctrines.
That Christ gave up His life in expiatory sacrifice under God's judgment upon sin and thus provided a "ransom" whereby those who receive Him on this ground obtain deliverance from the penalty due to sin, is what Scripture teaches. What the Lord states in the two passages mentioned involves this essential character of His death. In these passages the preposition is anti, which has a vicarious significance, indicating that the "ransom" holds good for those who, accepting it as such, no longer remain in death since Christ suffered death in their stead. The change of preposition in 1Ti_2:6, where the word antilutron. a substitutionarv "ransom," is used, is significant. There the preposition is huper, "on behalf of," and the statement is made that He "gave Himself a ransom for all," indicating that the "ransom" was provisionally universal, while being of a vicarious character. Thus the three passages consistently show that while the provision was universal, for Christ died for all men, yet it is actual for those only who accept God's conditions, and who are described in the Gospel statements as "the many." The giving of His life was the giving of His entire person, and while His death under divine judgment was alone expiatory, it cannot be dissociated from the character of His life which, being sinless, gave virtue to His death and was a testimony to the fact that His death must be of a vicarious nature.

In short, it can’t be answered as to the question of who Jesus paid if one pushes the metaphor “Jesus paid the price.” I would have preferred you answer as I’m not dialoguing with this author.

Maybe What journeyman was trying to say is Jesus suffered for us same as “paying price” means in general a person suffers because of choices made, that is, it focus on his suffering. It isn’t literally buying something in the sense of an exchange of valuable commodities. “Ransom” is a metaphor.

 

[journeyman]

You say it disagrees but you havent proved it. All I know that scripture is very clear that man by nature doesnt seek God, nor understand God Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Man by nature, is at enmity against God, and cannot be subject to Him

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

It's a funny thing. I look back over my life and recall having a very strong faith in God as only a child can. Mind you, I didn't understand the good news of how our Lord died, but how disheartening it is for some false teachers to try to pull me away from what I know is right. What I know I lived.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You are very difficult to understand and I am not the first one in this thread to state this.

I am fairly well educated and think fairly deeply about things a lot of people don’t touch with a single brain cell, I know. What is it that isn’t clear? I can make it simple.

It is often said, that when a person is not understood easily it is because they do not have the knowledge of what they are trying to say.

No, mostly the reader is too uninformed or unwilling to learn. If I wrote about the neuroscience I am professional involved in, you would understand that even less and it’s not because I am the one who is lacking knowledge.

Grace and peace to you.

This is a fairly odious ending when you personally insult people. It’s like slapping someone and the leave saying “have a nice day.” Do you think this makes you into a kind and thoughtful person? You post brings the opposite of grace and peace and is intended to be so. The ending fools no one but you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

What book is that referring to? The Bible isn’t it because your name and details of your life aren’t there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's a funny thing. I look back over my life and recall having a very strong faith in God as only a child can. Mind you, I didn't understand the good news of how our Lord died, but how disheartening it is for some false teachers to try to pull me away from what I know is right. What I know I lived.

I’ve heard that children naturally believe in God. They believe God is good. But when we teach puberty, things change. We must make choices. Calvinism teaches that God does things that are not good by any stretch of the imagination. That’s why we resist it, it is to defend his name among men.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you don't believe your Bible says that Jesus purchased the Church with His own blood, don't ask me. Pray about it.

As I said, you cannot give an answer. I didn’t think you could. It would have been better to admit you cannot answer than to assume I don’t believe. That’s because God gives grace to the humble (admitting you don’t know is humbling yourself) but opposes the proud (falsely accusing another to make yourself look better.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, the verse says the grace of God has appeared to "all" men. Most would say that means that somehow, every single human being has seen or heard it. I disagree, you seem to also.

Interesting that you have information as to whether or not God has touched everyone. How do you come by this knowledge of what God is doing in the lives of others?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We all got of track......

Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?​

Yes and the Bible says over and over again that so and so sought the Lord. Many many times. It makes perfect sense that man can and some do and some don’t. Takes a convoluted theology to come to the conclusion he can’t.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It should be, as our Savior taught,

Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; Mt.18:32

To not lay again the foundation of repentance from "dead works", that is, to stop straddling the fence,

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered...Eze.18:23-24

His works are dead and so is his faith,

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jas.2:17

Exactly! If the blood of innocent animals which remained dead convinced people that their sins were forgiven, how much more would the blood of Christ!

No they wouldn't all be saved. The unsaved would be damned for what they did to him and not repenting of it,

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36


I've cited many passages showing people having faith in God before being born again. Here's how becoming born again goes,

Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Jn.14:23

Humility toward God comes first. Then the Spirit isgiven.And so,

he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No Act.19:2

I'm going to tell you a secret.....Jesus is God.

Excellent post!! It will not make a dent in the thinking of those who insist it cannot be, but I enjoyed reading it.

 

[journeyman]

Maybe What journeyman was trying to say is Jesus suffered for us same as “paying price” means in general a person suffers because of choices made, that is, it focus on his suffering. It isn’t literally buying something in the sense of an exchange of valuable commodities. “Ransom” is a metaphor.

Hi Dorothy Mae.
Our sweet Jesus bought us back from death,

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hidden from my eyes.Hos.13:14

He didn't have to "pay the price" to anyone. Rather, he paid the price in the sense of having done nothing wrong, yet being found guilty (by men, not his Father.)

Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face. Psa.69:7

How can we read something like this and not think sin is ugly. Wicked men, beating God, inflicting sin on our Savior with a Roman whip. Talk about shame!

 

[journeyman]

Excellent post!! It will not make a dent in the thinking of those who insist it cannot be, but I enjoyed reading it.

Someone reading it will hear the truth.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi Dorothy Mae.
Our sweet Jesus bought us back from death,

I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hidden from my eyes.Hos.13:14

He didn't have to "pay the price" to anyone. Rather, he paid the price in the sense of having done nothing wrong, yet being found guilty (by men, not his Father.)

Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face. Psa.69:7

How can we read something like this and not think sin is ugly. Wicked men, beating God, inflicting sin on our Savior with a Roman whip. Talk about shame!

Yes I agree. He paid the price for our choices. I actually was wondering how the other side would answer. I know the answer. It’s pretty interesting how others think but Whatever could only quote a link…someone else’s answer. To those who haven’t thought much about what they believe, links are a refuge.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Someone reading it will hear the truth.

There are some in the fence considering calvinism as a viable theology. These we can warn.

 

[electedbyhim]

I am fairly well educated and think fairly deeply about things a lot of people don’t touch with a single brain cell, I know. What is it that isn’t clear? I can make it simple.

No, mostly the reader is too uninformed or unwilling to learn. If I wrote about the neuroscience I am professional involved in, you would understand that even less and it’s not because I am the one who is lacking knowledge.

This is a fairly odious ending when you personally insult people. It’s like slapping someone and the leave saying “have a nice day.” Do you think this makes you into a kind and thoughtful person? You post brings the opposite of grace and peace and is intended to be so. The ending fools no one but you.

So your smarter than most people and you need to tell the forum , why?

What is it that I am uninformed of and not willing to learn? I have been down this road before with many Arminians, I have studied their position, what they believe just is not Biblical and they will say what I believe is not Biblical.

Who am I insulting? I am not the only poster that does not understand what you are trying to say in many posts.

What is the personal insult?

What would you know about Grace when you chose your own salvation.

What would you know about peace when you believe that salvation depends on you and can lose it.

God did choose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyhim]

What book is that referring to? The Bible isn’t it because your name and details of your life aren’t there.

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unshaped substance; And in Your book all of them were written The days that were formed for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

It is Gods book. Does He need to show you that?

Does He also need to show you the names in the Lambs book of life?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyhim]

Yes and the Bible says over and over again that so and so sought the Lord. Many many times. It makes perfect sense that man can and some do and some don’t. Takes a convoluted theology to come to the conclusion he can’t.

They only sought the Lord because God sovereignly ordained them, and elected them. It make perfect sense to whom?

Dead men cannot choose God.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

How is that choosing God?


On a side note.

The Lord is continually working on my patience, especially when it comes to His truth. It hurts me personally when the Lords word is misrepresented and spoken of falsely. I have such a zeal for His word.

I will apologize to you or any member on this forum who think that I have insulted them or tried to intentionally hurt them verbally.

The Lord knows my heart and intentions. Nevertheless, I am still a wretched sinner being sanctified by His grace.

I mean no harm. Just because we are not like minded on on some doctrines does not mean we cannot glorify the Lord.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyhim]

There are some in the fence considering calvinism as a viable theology. These we can warn.

Warn them of what?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So your smarter than most people and you need to tell the forum , why?

That’s not what I said by a long shot. You would more easily understand what I write if you just read the words for what they are and not “interpret” them to mean something I did not say.

What is it that I am uninformed of and not willing to learn?

When did I say you weren’t willing to learn? Again, you change what I said into something I didn’t say.

I have been down this road before with many Arminians, I have studied their position, what they believe just is not Biblical and they will say what I believe is not Biblical.

Ok, a test. What do YOU THINK we believe?

Who am I insulting? I am not the only poster that does not understand what you are trying to say in many posts.

Not to be surprised. I’m better educated than some. Some can’t even write in full sentences with punctuation. This indicates high school was not completed. Doesn’t mean they are stupid, just lack the education so they can communicate is a form best for others.

What is the personal insult?

What would you know about Grace when you chose your own salvation.

Ah, thought so. You don’t understand non-calvinists. That is certainly not it.

What would you know about peace when you believe that salvation depends on you and can lose it.

Again, you don’t understand.

God did choose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise.

Sometimes. But the man wrote the bulk of the New Testament and another who wrote the beginning books of the old had the best education the world had to offer. Many Bible authors were highly educated men, not foolish.

Grace and peace to you.

I have both but I rebuke what you offer in Jesus’ name.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Warn them of what?

The fruit of that theology also reflected in the liberties you take.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They only sought the Lord because God sovereignly ordained them, and elected them.

I see that calvinism has taught you to add to people’s words and what the Bible says to suit what you want it/them to say but didn’t. That’s an interesting fruit of calvinism.

It make perfect sense to whom?

Dead men cannot choose God.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom we all also formerly conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

How is that choosing God?

You are too deep in calvinism to see.

On a side note.

The Lord is continually working on my patience, especially when it comes to His truth. It hurts me personally when the Lords word is misrepresented and spoken of falsely. I have such a zeal for His word.

You are joking right? You just added to his word above and then tell us it hurts you when his word is misrepresented??? I mean read what you yourself write. Why doesn’t that hurt you??

I will apologize to you or any member on this forum who think that I have insulted them or tried to intentionally hurt them verbally.

Ah, the modern worldly non-apology apology. No admitting wrong was done and enjoying the added pleasure of feeling you power over others such that your very words hurt as well as being able to admire the humility you think you just expressed. Three pleasures for the price of one. You apologize if we (mistakenly of course) THINK you wanted to hurt others.

Let me assure you, you have no power whatsoever to hurt me. None. That you insult people instead of patiently and with grace and peace answer is clear. Your intention is to deflect, not hurt.

The Lord knows my heart and intentions. Nevertheless, I am still a wretched sinner being sanctified by His grace.

We know your heart too.

I mean no harm. Just because we are not like minded on on some doctrines does not mean we cannot glorify the Lord.

You are fooling yourself as to your goodness. You cannot answer with grace and peace but instead put others down.

Grace and peace to you.

Yeah, right.

Btw, I am not in the least angry but have learned from Jesus to call a spade a spade. He has taught me to say the truth. My culture taught me to lie or wait until I was angry to finally blurt out the truth. I say it as soon as I recognize it and feel it ought to be said. If you read his words, that’s exactly how Jesus spoke. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.