Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[rogerg]

It should be, as our Savior taught,

Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought

The servant made promise to the master to pay back all. By that promise, the servant chose to, and placed himself, under the law and it was then the master's prerogative to enforce the penalty of the law, which he did.
That is a parallel to someone promising God to make retribution of themselves for their sin and until paid back in full, the debt remains. It is interesting to note that by being in prison, the first servant would never be able to make that payment.

This can be seen in v35. In v35 we are informed that to be able to forgive from the heart, one must realize that those brethren who trespassed against them (spiritually speaking) their debt no longer exists because (spiritually speaking), the judgment of law no longer exists. The " his brother" in V35 means it pertains only to those who have become saved and are of the spiritual brethren.

[Mat 18:35 KJV] 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

To not lay again the foundation of repentance from "dead works", that is, to stop straddling the fence,

It simply doesn't say that and there's no way to make it say that.

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be

Sure. The Jews of Old Testament Israel committed themselves to the keeping of the law. Failure or imperfection in performing that was sin.

[Eze 20:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Jas.2:17

It is referring to Christ's faith and works, not ours. Christ was the only one to have both faith AND works which pleased the Father. It was by this that we become saved.

No they wouldn't all be saved. The unsaved would be damned for what they did to him and not repenting of it,

All who become saved are those who did that to Him.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36

Belief/faith is a gift given only to those whom God saves, but not to everyone.

Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Jn.14:23

The Comforter had not yet been given, and the latter rain had not yet occurred.

[Jhn 14:26 KJV] 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No Act.19:2

This pertained to speaking in tongues and prophesying - beginning of the latter rain -- a different event than of becoming saved.

[Act 19:6 KJV] 6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

I'm going to tell you a secret.....Jesus is God.

Don't condescend to me

 

[electedbyHim]

You’ve made two comments that show clearly you do not understand my position at all and you, who claimed you are not “into labels” just used a label. You claim you understand my position which IS what I think by definition and then say you don’t presume to know what others thinks. Are you sure you know what you think?

Fair enough.

This is what happens when one posts on the fly.

Your theology is of the Armimian camp. It is true I do know if you hold to everything they teach.

I do not know as much as many others.

I am a nobody in the world of somebody's.

 

[electedbyHim]

You’re passing judgement on me. I don’t add to the Word.

I don’t add to the Word. Those who sought God, sought God…period. Nothing added.

Well I asked the poster who refused to use a little grammar so we could sort out his sentences and he said he didn’t care if others could easily read his writing.

Well it’s a fact the Paul was highly educated and God had him write the majority of the NT. Same with Moses who wrote more books than any other one man.

What do you want?

Notice these people freely set their own minds on fleshly pleasures. They chose those pursuits. And those choices become habits. Now their minds are not dead. They are darkened. “Dead” is a metaphor as they still choose. I’ve heard many testimonies from people who did that for some years and were eventually sickened by it. They hungered for something more than pleasures of the flesh. This they freely chose.

Now Calvinists presume to
lay out in detail what happens in a man. What scripture says is God draws a man. It doesn’t say He changes them. But He does call or draw or move in that person with an Heavenly bidding. That man can squelch that call or pursue it.

Those scriptures do not say those who pursue the flesh canNOT talk to God, pray, seek to know if there is a God or stop setting their minds on the flesh. It says those who SET their minds on the flesh cannot. But a man can refuse to set his mind on the flesh. Then they are no longer DECIDING to pursue sin. This is where we part company because you say they cannot. These verses do not say that

How do you interpret these verses.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[brightfame52]

No man naturally can believe on Christ nor even believe in the True God, for what saith the scripture Lk 10:21-22

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Now to call upon the name of Jesus for Salvation as per Rom 10, the person must know who the Son is to believe Him Rom 10:14

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

There can be no true calling upon Christ without Faith and the knowledge of who He is and what He accomplished and for whom. Yet Jesus reveals that naturally "no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father"

So who Christ is in His True Glorious Person must be revealed to a man as it was to Peter here Matt 16:16-17

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

See Peter was Blessed, he didn't know who Jesus Christ really was by natural man ability but by Divine revelation. 9

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Fair enough.

This is what happens when one posts on the fly.

Happens to all of us from time to time.

Your theology is of the Armimian camp. It is true I do know if you hold to everything they teach.

Well so far you’ve struck out twice. You’ve got two strikes. But I will give you more than three strikes. Not sure you’ll ever be “out.”

I do not know as much as many others.

That goes for me too.

I am a nobody in the world of somebody's.

Me too. I’ve written no books. I’m not a speaker or worship leader. My name is in a few scientific papers on subjects just about no one is interested in. I am a nobody with no claim to fame although loved by my children and husband.

And God too. He REALLY loves me. (He loves You too.)

 

[electedbyHim]

Happens to all of us from time to time.

Well so far you’ve struck out twice. You’ve got two strikes. But I will give you more than three strikes. Not sure you’ll ever be “out.”

That goes for me too.

Me too. I’ve written no books. I’m not a speaker or worship leader. My name is in a few scientific papers on subjects just about no one is interested in. I am a nobody with no claim to fame although loved by my children and husband.

And God too. He REALLY loves me. (He loves You too.)

Indeed.

I have such a love for Him and His word.

1 John 4:19 We love, because He first loved us

 

[Dorothy Mae]

How do you interpret these verses.

Very gladly.

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Notice those who become believers are destined or predestined to become like Jesus so that there are many people like Jesus. There is no mention of being predestined to be saved. Once saved, there’s one plan for everyone and it’s very sure…become like Jesus.

Now He called men as no one comes to Jesus without the Father drawing him (called.) Now here is where Paul, talking only about what God does, doesn’t describe a detailed step by step procedure for becoming saved. He doesn’t mentioned man’s part which Paul knows means repent and believe.

So in addressing Gods part, He promises that God justifies believers. From my view, glorifying is to come because to me, glorifying is more than life we now have. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It will not make a dent in the thinking of those who insist it cannot be

You're right. I just had Eze.20:25 quoted at me by someone who doesn't understand what it means,

Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

But this passage doesn't mean God didn't want people to obey the law. God is speaking in relation to this,

Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols Eze.20:24

So God is referring to the curses of the law, such as here,

Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in asecret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen. Deu.27:15

So the statute not to live by serving idols isn't "good" because worshipping false gods brings a curse.

It's a shame that statutes God ordained for humbleness are despised as of no value. Anyway, from now on, I'll only be conversing in this thread with believers who can see the truth of this, such as yourself.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You're right. I just had Eze.20:25 quoted at me by someone who doesn't understand what it means,

Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

But this passage doesn't mean God didn't want people to obey the law. God is speaking in relation to this,

Because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols Eze.20:24

So God is referring to the curses of the law, such as here,

Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in asecret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen. Deu.27:15

So the statute not to live by serving idols isn't "good" because worshipping false gods brings a curse.

It's a shame that statutes God ordained for humbleness are despised as of no value. Anyway, from now on, I'll only be conversing in this thread with believers who can see the truth of this, such as yourself.

I’m actually surprised at how some see the law of the Lord as odious. David wrote the “the law of the Lord is good.” I’m tempted to ask them which law do they despise. Is the law regarding do not murder something to avoid being under? How about stealing? Are christian’s freed from not stealing, one of those horrible laws Jesus freed us from?

 

[Whatever]

But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Take that to the limit, then all of us are in trouble. A lot of people could be fed with what we all pay every month on internet, phones, satellite. Not to mention our houses we could sell and give away, plus our cars, going out to eat at restaurants and on and on.

Just imagine what would happen to our society if everybody lived like Mother Theresa. There would be no things to buy because nobody would make them. No banks, Walmart's, no streets, no sewers, toilets, Kleenex, toilet paper. Christians would all be beggars. We would be too busy helping others to have a job.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I’m actually surprised at how some see the law of the Lord as odious. David wrote the “the law of the Lord is good.” I’m tempted to ask them which law do they despise. Is the law regarding do not murder something to avoid being under? How about stealing? Are christian’s freed from not stealing, one of those horrible laws Jesus freed us from?

Perfectly said Dorothy Mae.

The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple...Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

Psa.19:7,11

 

[Whatever]

Now He called men as no one comes to Jesus without the Father drawing him (called.)

If the Father calls everybody, then saying so makes no sense. It's like saying "no man can come to Me unless they exist." It's so obvious, it doesn't need mentioning. It only makes sense if only some are called.

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen (eklektos)." Many, not all are called.

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen (eklektos) and faithful followers.”

Micah 5:7 Then the remnant of Jacob will be in the midst of many peoples, . . .
Romans 11:5 So then at this present time there is a remnant (leimma) according to the election of grace.

leimma (G3005), "that which is left" (akin to leipo, "to leave"), "a remnant," is used in Rom_11:5, "there is a remnant," more lit., "there has come to be a remnant," i.e., there is a spiritual "remnant" saved by the gospel from the midst of apostate Israel. While in one sense there has been and is a considerable number, yet, compared with the whole nation, past and present, the "remnant" is small, and as such is an evidence of God's electing grace.

 

[Whatever]

If the Father calls everybody

Let 's look at that word draw again.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

That word draw (helkuō) and is Strongs number 1670 is used only 8 times in the New Testament.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw G1670 him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw G1670 all men unto me.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew G1670 it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. . .

John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw G1670 it for the multitude of fishes.

John 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew G1670 the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

Act 16:19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew G1670 them into the marketplace unto the rulers,

Act 21:30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew G1670 him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

James 2:6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw G1670 you before the judgment seats?

You can easily see it is used in the sense of to draw by inward power, lead, impel. Not to woo or entice or invite.

 

[electedbyHim]

Very gladly.

Notice those who become believers are destined or predestined to become like Jesus so that there are many people like Jesus. There is no mention of being predestined to be saved. Once saved, there’s one plan for everyone and it’s very sure…become like Jesus.

Now He called men as no one comes to Jesus without the Father drawing him (called.) Now here is where Paul, talking only about what God does, doesn’t describe a detailed step by step procedure for becoming saved. He doesn’t mentioned man’s part which Paul knows means repent and believe.

So in addressing Gods part, He promises that God justifies believers. From my view, glorifying is to come because to me, glorifying is more than life we now have. But that’s just my opinion.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Edward]

But you really believe that "everyone" has heard the gospel message? Jesus died 2,000 years ago. Billions of people have lived and died in areas where no missionary ever went.

I don't believe it is complete yet. You're asking me to speculate on how God ccomplishes some of the things He does and I just don't know that.

 

[Edward]

Well, the verse says the grace of God has appeared to "all" men. Most would say that means that somehow, every single human being has seen or heard it. I disagree, you seem to also.

When did I ever say I saw grace. As for the effects of grace, what effect did it have on the Australian Aborigines for thousands of years when the Europeans finally got there and they were purely pagan?

Right there you said it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If the Father calls everybody, then saying so makes no sense. It's like saying "no man can come to Me unless they exist." It's so obvious, it doesn't need mentioning. It only makes sense if only some are called.

Why? The Bible says God loves every person on Earth. Why is then calling each man not worth saying? Jesus didn’t think so as he says God so loved the WORLD. He thought that worth saying. Does that also make no sense to you?

Maybe you think being called means you have no choice in responding and are like manipulated from within robots. Many are called, but few are chosen because few choose. He calls, “seek Me” and few say, “oh Lord, I will seek you.”

Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen (eklektos)." Many, not all are called.

Does not exclude any. Many is a part of all.

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen (eklektos) and faithful followers.”

Yes, they chose Him as well. Called and responded with “yes” and went on to pay the price of following him.

Micah 5:7 Then the remnant of Jacob will be in the midst of many peoples, . . .
Romans 11:5 So then at this present time there is a remnant (leimma) according to the election of grace.

leimma (G3005), "that which is left" (akin to leipo, "to leave"), "a remnant," is used in Rom_11:5, "there is a remnant," more lit., "there has come to be a remnant," i.e., there is a spiritual "remnant" saved by the gospel from the midst of apostate Israel. While in one sense there has been and is a considerable number, yet, compared with the whole nation, past and present, the "remnant" is small, and as such is an evidence of God's electing grace.

What does that have to do with the discussion? We weren’t discussing Israel.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

In Tit.2, Paul says the Grace of God has appeared to all men, servants, young and old, men and women alike vss.2- 9.
I also think Paul means both Jew and gentile.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Take that to the limit, then all of us are in trouble. A lot of people could be fed with what we all pay every month on internet, phones, satellite. Not to mention our houses we could sell and give away, plus our cars, going out to eat at restaurants and on and on.

Just imagine what would happen to our society if everybody lived like Mother Theresa. There would be no things to buy because nobody would make them. No banks, Walmart's, no streets, no sewers, toilets, Kleenex, toilet paper. Christians would all be beggars. We would be too busy helping others to have a job.

First, the scripture says “sees his brother in need” is not being aware of world hunger. We are not called to feed the world.

Second, it says “his brother” which also means a christian, not the world. Jesus commanded us to love the brethren, not the world. He says the world will see that Jesus lives because we love ONE ANOTHER, not everyone.

Third, this mean RELATIONSHIP with one another, not merely a helping hand.

So no, following this to its limit means you do more than pray for your brother in need. If you can help, you do. It doesn’t mean the burden of world poverty is in us personally.

 

[electedbyHim]

So what I gather is that all those who teach the Doctrines of Grace are teaching a false doctrine.
The likes of Spurgeon, Whitfield, Edwards, Newton, Warfield, Lloyd Jones, Macarthur, Sproul and the like.

The men of God are preaching a false doctrine? Is that correct?

I understand that this is not on topic, but I have to ask.

Grace and peace to you.