Does man naturally have ability to Seek God ?

[Whatever]

I don't believe it is complete yet. You're asking me to speculate on how God ccomplishes some of the things He does and I just don't know that.

I'm not asking you to speculate on anything.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

It seems that now God has limited reaching people through the message preached.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Those 3 questions above are rhetorical. The expected answer is "they can't."

So I am simply assuming that many generations of people in Australia, the Amazon Jungle, even American Indians and more, never had any preachers sent to them until the Europeans started sending them out.

Jim Elliot, was killed in 1956 while attempting to make missionary contact with the Auca people of eastern Ecuador. That was 2,000 years after Jesus died and rose again and they were just now being reached.

 

[Whatever]

What is this Doctrine of Grace?

Some Calvinists, especially Baptists prefer to use the term "Doctrines of Grace" to try to distance themselves from Calvin and Presbyterians.

 

[electedbyHim]

electedbyhim
you will not be able to debate into believing those who do not already recognize Christ as Saviour. This
is because that awareness is only given spiritually by God with one's understanding following from that. It is not/cannot be acquired through intellectual means.
It comes down to that those who don't believe/trust in Christ alone as Saviour in all ways, have not been taken from under law and are therefore still blinded by and subject to law. To them, what you are saying about grace is heresy because as they would state it, a person just can't be saved without first initiating or contributing to it in some manner on their own - they feel they must do something, not knowing that for those who receive it, it was completely as a free gift from a gracious God - that is salvation's secret which they are unable to see - but God only reveals that secret to those whom He has saved. So, I would suggest that while trying to convince those under law with debate and logic, keep in mind that unfortunately it is probably doomed to failure.

I am not sure if any of them do not recognize Christ as their Saviour or not. I do know that many who claim to be saved are truly self-deceived. They will be in fellowship with us, in our families, churches work place etc. I know that God has ordained these conversations in my life to bring Him glory and to keep me in check.


I have been down this path many a time, I understand what is going on.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Whatever]

So you are saying that those theologians and preachers that I listed are wrong in their theology?

Don't most of us believe that Roman Catholicism is heresy? Do you believe every Pope and Cardinal is saved?

The first Church I went to, the guy was raised Southern Baptist and was a couple of point Calvinist, and when me and my friend started learning, we questioned whether John Wesley as saved. The pastor god indignant at that.

 

[electedbyHim]

Some Calvinists, especially Baptists prefer to use the term "Doctrines of Grace" to try to distance themselves from Calvin and Presbyterians.

That is one way to put it. For myself, it is not distancing myself from anyone or denomination. Doctrines of grace is what I knew before I learned it was Calvinism.

 

[Whatever]

none of the provided scriptures support that theology

Not to those not willing to see.

 

[jasonc]

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church which holds to the Westminster standards, doesn't require you to even hold to them to be a member not even to receive communion. Only if you are going to be a deacon, elder, teacher of pastor.

I know that the arp isn't the only church to use the wcf ,but some use the newer versions .
Deacons don't teach they fix and maintain the grounds .

 

[Whatever]

Some Calvinists, especially Baptists prefer to use the term "Doctrines of Grace" to try to distance themselves from Calvin and Presbyterians.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834 – 1892) has proven to be one of the greatest preachers, if not the greatest preacher, since the days of the apostles. The appeal of Spurgeon’s preaching was almost immediate, and his Metropolitan Tabernacle was regularly filled with 5000-6000 people.

In his autobiography, Spurgeon elaborated on his firm belief in the Doctrines of Grace:
There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer that I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me if I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply that I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it.

Spurgeon does, however, offer an important clarification in regards to the moniker of “Calvinist.” In reference to the term, Spurgeon commented:
That doctrine which is called “Calvinism” did not spring from Calvin; we believe that it sprang from the great founder of all truth…. We use the term then, not because we impute any extraordinary importance to Calvin’s having taught these doctrines. We would be just as willing to call them by any other name, if we could find one which would be better understood, and which on the whole would be as consistent with fact.

Conversion is not, as some suppose, a violent opening of the heart by grace, in which will, reason and judgment are all ignored or crushed. The reason is not blinded, but enlightened; and the whole man is made to act with a glorious liberty which it never knew till it fell under the restraints of grace.

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved.

 

[electedbyHim]

Don't most of us believe that Roman Catholicism is heresy? Do you believe every Pope and Cardinal is saved?

The first Church I went to, the guy was raised Southern Baptist and was a couple of point Calvinist, and when me and my friend started learning, we questioned whether John Wesle

Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834 – 1892) has proven to be one of the greatest preachers, if not the greatest preacher, since the days of the apostles. The appeal of Spurgeon’s preaching was almost immediate, and his Metropolitan Tabernacle was regularly filled with 5000-6000 people.

In his autobiography, Spurgeon elaborated on his firm belief in the Doctrines of Grace:
There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer that I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me if I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply that I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it.

Spurgeon does, however, offer an important clarification in regards to the moniker of “Calvinist.” In reference to the term, Spurgeon commented:
That doctrine which is called “Calvinism” did not spring from Calvin; we believe that it sprang from the great founder of all truth…. We use the term then, not because we impute any extraordinary importance to Calvin’s having taught these doctrines. We would be just as willing to call them by any other name, if we could find one which would be better understood, and which on the whole would be as consistent with fact.

Conversion is not, as some suppose, a violent opening of the heart by grace, in which will, reason and judgment are all ignored or crushed. The reason is not blinded, but enlightened; and the whole man is made to act with a glorious liberty which it never knew till it fell under the restraints of grace.

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved.

Excellent.

I truly love reading his sermons and commentaries. Spurgeon's daily devotions are exceptional as well. God gifted this man incredibly.

Grace and peace to you

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Their well known published works are all over the internet. They made it very well known in their books that they published as well as their sermons that they preached.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. I do not agree.

The apostle Paul is not here but we discuss and quote his theology given by God Himself.

Grace and peace to you.

Paul’s writings were recognized as inspired by God. No one says this about those pieces. Bring up
theologial points, but I will not attack my brothers. I will answer to God one day and that will not be a matter I have to justify when they cannot defend themselves. You may. I may not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But they teach the doctrines of grace and by what you have said, they are not taught in Scripture.

For the record, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, these doctrines are taught in Scripture. The Bible has taught these doctrines way before Calvin did.

Total Depravity - As a result of Adam’s fall, the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18).

Unconditional Election - Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate a response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30;9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6, 11-12) because man is unable to respond, nor does he want to.

Limited Atonement - Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and for whom Christ died will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25).

Irresistible Grace - Those whom God elected He draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37, 44; 10:16).

Perseverance of the Saints - The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).


For anyone to deny these doctrines is to deny God and His word.

People can argue until they are blue in the face, it does not change the fact that they are in the Bible.

These great men of God have been overly blessed in their ministries for teaching these truths and being faithful to Scripture.

Grace and peace to you.

This is the typical intolerance seen in calvinists and Calvin himself. Either one agrees with Calvinism or they are denying scripture. One agrees with you or their character is bad.

 

[electedbyHim]

Paul’s writings were recognized as inspired by God. No one says this about those pieces. Bring up
theologial points, but I will not attack my brothers. I will answer to God one day and that will not be a matter I have to justify when they cannot defend themselves. You may. I may not.

Sermons and writings are inspired by the Holy Spirit, no?

It is one thing to call out false teaching, not attack the person.


These men were on point.

 

[electedbyHim]

This is the typical intolerance seen in calvinists and Calvin himself. Either one agrees with Calvinism or they are denying scripture. One agrees with you or their character is bad.

This is typical of those who are blinded by pride.

Again, one either agrees with what the Scripture teaches on these doctrines or they deny it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

This is typical of those who are blinded by pride.

Again, one either agrees with what the Scripture teaches on these doctrines or they deny it.

What should I say? You don’t hurt or even offend me. The grace and peace and presence of Jesus is so strong, I only am sorry this is your view. I’ll tell you what I’ve observed in 100% of the Calvinists I’ve met.

Not a single one of them understood or understands the ways of God. Not one. This is measured by asking them to explain God with answers that do Him honor and they cannot. Not a one. And I’m sorry that God will remain a mystery to them. I have no doubt that they are saved and love God because of what He gave them. They’ll never love Him for who His because they don’t understand Him.

I wish you well. May God grant you the desires of your heart, as far as He is able.

 

[electedbyHim]

What should I say? You don’t hurt or even offend me. The grace and peace and presence of Jesus is so strong, I only am sorry this is your view. I’ll tell you what I’ve observed in 100% of the Calvinists I’ve met.

Not a single one of them understood or understands the ways of God. Not one. This is measured by asking them to explain God with answers that do Him honor and they cannot. Not a one. And I’m sorry that God will remain a mystery to them. I have no doubt that they are saved and love God because of what He gave them. They’ll never love Him for who His because they don’t understand Him.

I wish you well. May God grant you the desires of your heart, as far as He is able.

I am neither trying to offend or hurt anyone.

God is a mystery to you as well. You do not have all the answers as well.

You cannot truly say that these people do not love God. If loving God is not how you love God, who is in the wrong?

You have never been around a Calvinist in person to actually see these people in action. You admitted that you only know from online experience.

I do not feel sorry for those who do not understand these doctrines.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I am neither trying to offend or hurt anyone.

God is a mystery to you as well. You do not have all the answers as well.

God is not a mystery to me. Sorry but I really do understand Him. I know what He does and why when I’m involved in some way.

You cannot truly say that these people do not love God. If loving God is not how you love God, who is in the wrong?

I didn’t say they don’t love God. I said they love Him for what He gives them. You said so yourself.

You have never been around a Calvinist in person to actually see these people in action. You admitted that you only know from online experience.

Oh yes, since then I’ve observed them in action.

I do not feel sorry for those who do not understand these doctrines.

Not surprising

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not to those not willing to see.

Since none of you will actually look at what is written, I am right.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Some Calvinists, especially Baptists prefer to use the term "Doctrines of Grace" to try to distance themselves from Calvin and Presbyterians.

Whitewash…sounds a lot better.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That makes sense because it is not talking about people. Kosmos means the whole creation.

So God so loved creation (rocks and trees) but not people, at least individuals. That reminds me of the government that announces they are going to educate the population but no one individual will be taught to read and write.

God's love for the whole creation is why He sent His Son so that all the believing ones shall not perish, but if you understand the rest of the NT, saving the believers, also redeems the whole creation.

Actually He didn’t say he loved all creation but the world so that He sent his son. You’re changing the meaning. You also oppose the scripture that says God wants all
men to repent and come to a knowledge of the truth.

There you go again with your little imagination. Men manipulate robots. The omniscient God can work in a person

Does the predestined have a choice to refuse?

Classic free willer's answer. God is not allowed to do the choosing. Glorious man must be the captain of his own destiny.

Didn’t say that.

Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? . . . .

Do you disagree that humans are God's own?

Depends.

We were discussing election, who God chooses. Paul is answering the question of Romans 9:6
New Living Translation
6 Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promise to Israel? No, for not all who are born into the nation of Israel are truly members of God’s people!

No predestination there.

Paul's answering the question of why are so many Jews are now being lost now that the Messiah has come? His answer is election, not free will.

No, He doesn’t say the reason is He determined who goes to hell from before birth. He just states a truth. Not all Jews are saved.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills (thelo G2309), nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

No salvation mentioned there either.

thelo (G2309), "to will, to wish," implying volition and purpose, frequently a determination

But go ahead and willfully dismiss this. It doesn't fit your free thelo view.

As you see, I don’t add the words “saved” or “going to Heaven” but take them as they are written.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1834 – 1892) has proven to be one of the greatest preachers, if not the greatest preacher, since the days of the apostles. The appeal of Spurgeon’s preaching was almost immediate, and his Metropolitan Tabernacle was regularly filled with 5000-6000 people.

In his autobiography, Spurgeon elaborated on his firm belief in the Doctrines of Grace:
There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer that I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me if I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply that I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it.

Spurgeon does, however, offer an important clarification in regards to the moniker of “Calvinist.” In reference to the term, Spurgeon commented:
That doctrine which is called “Calvinism” did not spring from Calvin; we believe that it sprang from the great founder of all truth…. We use the term then, not because we impute any extraordinary importance to Calvin’s having taught these doctrines. We would be just as willing to call them by any other name, if we could find one which would be better understood, and which on the whole would be as consistent with fact.

Conversion is not, as some suppose, a violent opening of the heart by grace, in which will, reason and judgment are all ignored or crushed. The reason is not blinded, but enlightened; and the whole man is made to act with a glorious liberty which it never knew till it fell under the restraints of grace.

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved.

Joel Olsteen attracts a much larger crowd than that, like 10 times as large EVERY week!!